Gas Regulator Blockage Again

[JohnGriffiths]

I know this has been raised many times in the past and even been an advice article in the magazine but it seems to have quiet for a while. Has the incidence of these failures decreased? I ask because last week I became a victim. We took our Swift Charisma 550 van which was only purchased brand new in April 2010 out of stoarge, had it's first service done, and went away two weeks later. As soon as we tried to light the burners it was obvious there was a problem with low pressure. I checked all the obvious connections, no problem, then smelt gas and could hear a leak. So I obviously disconnected the bottle and took it back to the dealers the following week but it meant a week of living off salads, take aways and microwaved food.
The dealer did a quick check, showed me the gas was leaking from a small yellow nipple on the side of the Trauma regulator and said it was not under warranty because it was caused by contamination in the gas. I should have done more right then but with a hospital appointment due very shortly I let them change the regulator for £40 and drove away seething.
Four things keep going through my mind:-
1) Why does a failure like a contaminant blockage lead to a highly dangerous gas leak? It strikes me as negligent in the extreme for this to be designed in. I've read in prevoius posts of people converting back to bottle top regulators being warned of illegalities and dangerous practices but it seems professional can do worse.
2) How does one check what the actual cause of failure was, Trauma, Swift or the dealer seem to be able to wash their hands of any responsibility now, just blame it on contamination before even removing from the van?
3) Why did the same bottle as used on my old van for a season not contaminate the old regulator?
4) Why wasn't the problem picked up at the service?

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello John
I seem to recall you some one has already reported this fault on the forum a couple of months ago. At the time the consensus of those of us with gas industry experience belived the fault you describe could not be attributed to contaminated gas. Contaminated gas did not lead to gas escape, only to low or zero gas output pressure.
The only way that gas could escape through the breather hole would be if the internal daiphrgm was ruptured, and to my knowledge the contamination issue never caused that failure mode. Consequently the replacment of the regulator under your statutory rights is still the responsibility of your seller - even if there is any contamination present.

A ruptured diaphragm is a serious safety issue, and I am surprised that you are having difficulty in getting it replaced under warranty - A retail seller can be held responsible if they goods that are unsafe or fail in an unsafe way through normal use within the norlam life time of the product, and I think that less than one year is well within the regulatoirs expecetd life.
I sugegst you talk to trading standards.

At this point I do not belive the cause for the failure has been established, and given the reasons above I do not belive 'contamination' is the most likely cause. The regulator will need to be expertly investigated to try and establish the failure mode. Until the actual failure mode is established, it is unfair to believe it was 'designed in' It would be more accurate to say it was not 'designed out' a moot but subtle and important difference.

Incidentally I believe the yellow button you describe is most likely the essential air vent, which allows the regulators to compensate for changes in atmospheric air pressure and throughput rates.

Given that contamination may not be the cause of the regulator leak failure, your assumption that it might be bottle related is so far not established. It is possble the failure was not present at the last service. Do you have specific evidence of when it occurred?

The failure mode cannot be established without the product being carefully inspected. So the assumption it is contamination related is far from secure.

As purely a speculative observation I have come accross ruptured diaphrams in relatively new regulators (many years ago now) and on careful inspection of both the regulator we established that in some cases water had collected inside the regulator but on top of the diaphragm. The water got in through the atmospheric breather hole. In all of these cases the regulator had not been installed according to manufactures instructions and were exposed to rain or other sources of water.

Water on the diaphragm can restrict its movement and leads to unstable gas output pressures. Further if the regulator was frozen, the water froze solid which locks the regulator and needle valve provides no modulation to the gas flow. The consequences of freezing may just be a stretched diaphragm. or in a couple of cases we suspect the ice actually caused the diaphragm to split with symptoms similar to your own.

This is why regulators must be protected from direct water sources. However given the right atmospheric conditions it is possible for regulators to begin to collect water by condensing out moisture from the air that passes through the breather hole, when working a regulator takes gas at a high pressure and releases it into the regulators chamber. As the gas vapour expands it cools down which in turn also cools the regulator body. Being cooler than the surrounding air, the regulator may well be cool enough to cause condensation to settle on and in side the regulator. With big changes in gas demand, the regulator will 'pant' and as it does so some of the internal air will be exchanged with the atmosphere thus introducing warmer moist air to the cooler interior of the regulator body.

Designers should be aware of this and should design and specify installations that manage condensation safely.

 

[Heethers]

l posted the problem with my regulator a month go, l purchased a new Lunar Clubman SE in May 2010, this April the regulator failed, the replaced it with a new one under warranty at the first years service which they kindly brought forwarded by a month. l asked what the problem was but they could not tell me has it was sent back to Truma so they could claim back a replacement to their stock under the warranty agreement. l asked if Truma would send a report to them, up to now they have never received reports on faulty regulators just replacements. One thing l noticed was that the dealer had fitted the regulator in the horizontal position instead of the vertical when it was fitted by Lunar. It would be advantageous to see a report from Truma what the cause was has from now on if the problem arises again l will have to fund the replacement or change to a different regulator.
NigelH

 

[Surfer]

More importantly why was this not picked up on the annual service. It sounds as if though they never checked the gas supply and i woudlo challenge them on thsi especially as it was a leak that was detected. Obviously a dealer to avoid!

 

[Martin_E]

John L,

The oils in the gas deform the diaphragm and gives it a cauliflower appearance, I suspect when this gets bad enough then the regulator overpressure and blows the yellow relief valve. I did have a photo of the diaphragm after being effected, I will see if i can find it.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Martin,

Many diaphragms take on a 'cauliflower appearance' even when no contamination is present - I have seen many.

In all my years working with LPG systems I have never seen a caravan regulator with pressure relief valve on the gas side. in fact if such a device was fitted because of its vulnerable location that would be an accident waiting to happen.

Manufacturers work hard to maintain gas tightness to contain gas and not provide escape routes which are always a potential weak point. The exception being gas bottle manufacturers who often provide a safety valve in the control valve gear that will only operate if the lpg bottle gets too hot, such as in a fire.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Surfer,
It may be worth while asking the dealer to review their work, buit you also have to look at what the dealer was contracted to do. In some cases as a gas safety check is not always part of the service schedule so there may have been no reason for the dealer to even look at the system.
Equally as the cause of the leak has not been established, when or how it happened may mean it was not leaking at the time of the service.

 

[JohnGriffiths]

Thanks Prof John and others for that very useful information. There is obviously some justification in me taking this further.

 

[Heethers]

Surfer it hadn't had its first service it was due in May not the dealers fault, has l said the van was bought new last May. What the problems are with these regualtors needs sorting by Truma.
NigelH

 

[Martin_E]

Truma have spent shed loads on this problem and as far as I can gather have laid the fault on the gas suppliers door

 

[ProfJohnL]

I concure with Martin,
Truma have spent a considerable sum on trying to find the cause of the contamination and via unconfirmed reports from the company they cannot find any aspect of thier product that causes of the contamination. So if they are not causing it, something else is, and more importatntly it means that Truma are not liable for the damage the contamination causes.

So where can it come from?

bearing in mind that the incidence of contaminated regulators coincides with installation where teh regulator is mounted low down, and that the gas flow is from the bottle to the regulator, it is logical to look for the source up stream of the regulator - that means supply pigtails and the gas bottles themselves.

I am sure that clever chemical engineers could ( and probably have) analysed the contaminant, and know what its constituant compounds are. Armed with that knowledge, they should be able to identify the likely sources.

It may not be single component thats the cause, but it may be a chemical reaction between the gas and any of the additional elements in the it and some other components in the supply lines. LPG is a petroleum based fuel, it is highly searching and will naturally disolve certain rubbers and plastics casuing them to degrade.

When you buy a gas bottle refil, of Butane or Propane, whilst these gasses will form the bulk of the product but ther will be traces of several other petoleum fractions, some which are too expensive to filter out, and other are added to obtain the correct gas charateristics to comply with the EN589 fuel standard. Maybe some of these other LPG fractions are more aggressive.

 

[Guest]

I think it's the fluid the bottles are tested with from time to time, my belief is they don't fully clean tthe bottles out after testing but mearly allow them to drain.
This then might explain why only small bottles and much higher pressure propane, are affected and it also might explain why this problem seems to happen in spats?
Bigger bottles on the otherhand don't get shook up and the top is a lot further from the bottom where any fluid will collect.

What I'm 100% sure of it it's not Truma's fault or the hose for that matter, and the problem was around long before 2004 and the advent of the current setup

 

[Damian]

I have read all the comments made about who is responsible for the blocked regs, and one thing is certain, it is NOT a regulator fault.
Truma have spent in excess of £300, 000 investigating the problem and even complete stainless steel installations have suffered from the same problem.
The pigtails do NOT contain enough plastcicser to produce the amount of oily residue found in most cases of regulator blockage.

The only item which IS capable of producing the amounts of residue is the GAS, or rather the impurities within it after processing.
At one time Calor burnt off the "heavy ends" left in the cylinders very frequently when cylinders were returned for filling, they then only cleaned the cylinders out when due pressure testing, every 10 years.
The current testing regime has been increased to 15 years.
When a caravan is being towed, the gas slops about and mixes the oily residue into the liquid gas, which then ends up in suspension in the gaseous part and when the cylinder is opened, it condenses in the pigatil and regulator.

 

[JohnGriffiths]

I'm not sure I agree with the premise that regulator manufacturers have no responsibility with contaminant problems. If all gas contains these contaminants then the design must be wrong. Car fuel injectors would fail unless there was a fuel filter so they put one in. Houshold electrics would fail if the supply was direct from the generator so it is smoothed. You wouldn't want a vacuum cleaner manufacturer to say after it had got blocked "Well what do you expect, you've sucked dust up with it". Perhaps it needs a complete rethink in how regulators work.

 

[Paul_5041263]

Hi, At the annual service in March of my 4 yaer old Bailey the service engineer, who was mobile based at significantly lower cost to the local Bailey dealer, inspected every onboard system in my van including the gas and found the gas pressure inadequate and specified a replacement regulator which he was unable to fit on the spot. There were no signs of residues in either the regulator inlet/outlet or any signs in the flex hose. All were perfectly clean.
I have since replaced the Truma regulator with a Clesse brand after reading recommendations on this site. The new regulator works perfectly.

 

[Gafferbill]

……..from purely a caravaners non expert point of view.

What was wrong with the old cylinder top regulators?
They are cheap, almost 100% reliable and easy to replace.
The only time I ever give mine any thought is when I replace it every five years for around £5.

 

[HenryB1]

We had the same problem with our Bailey Pegasus. Purchased in March 2010 regulator failed with big escape of gas when I turned on the Calor Light bottle in September. Weekend in the wet with no gas to cook on. Our dealer replaced the regulator under warranty with agreement of Bailey. Truma refused to replace as they do not see it as a regulator problem. My feeling is that the regulator should be designed to cope with all types of gas without failing.
HenryB

 

[JohnGriffiths]

Briefly, I've spoken to the dealer again who says I have their support but their hands are tied so I've now written a letter to Swift asking how they decide a regulator is not under warranty before examination, and also asking why Bailey seem to be doing a better job. I'll let you all know how it goes. Many thanks.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello John Griffiths,

Quote"I've spoken to the dealer again who says I have their support but their hands are tied"

What a nice posittion to be in!. Your dealer (who I assume is the seller) agrees and admits the regulator is faulty, and thus by virtue of your statutory rights supported enshrined in the Sale of Goods Act, means they are obliged to either refund the cost of the product , or repair it but usually for something like a regulator replace it free of charge.

As your contract to buy the regulator(Caravan) is with the seller neither Swift or Truma have any contracural arrangmanentes with you and thus thier opinion about the regulator has no bearing on the sellers legal responsibilty to you to refund or replace faulty goods..

Write to the seller and tell them you want a free of charge replacement including removal and fitting of your regulator under the terms of the Sale of Goods Act.

 

[Surfer]

John is quite correct as your contract is with the dealer and their hands are not tied. They are fobbing you off. It is their responsibility to resolve the problem and not Swift or Truma. You need to be firm with the dealer. If they still deny responsibility then escalate it to Trading Standards. If all the dealers put pressure on Calor or Truma may something will get resolved. As suggested, I suspect it is the quality of the highly priced gas that Calor use!
It would be interesting to find out if Gaslow or other non Calor systems have a similar problem. Perhaps Damien can answer that?

 

[Dustydog]

From all these posts it surprises me that Calor appear to have taken no interest in the matter at all.
As an aside the actual flexible pipe between the gas cylinder and the regulator is date stamped and according to my dealer should be changed every five years. Mine was five years old last november yet the caravan was only three years old!!

very strange.
I'd be interested to learn if those who suffer the problem use their caravans regularly or only now and then?
I ask this because we caravan throughout the year and have not experienced any problem with this regulator type over the last eight years.
Also I have purchased our propane replacement cylinders al over the country including the Isle of Skye so I don't think it can be a geographic thing or limited to say one Calor depot. Do they have more than one?

 

[JohnGriffiths]

John L - The dealer has not admitted there is a fault really, they are sitting on the fence I suppose, not wanting to pick up the tab with no compensation from Swift/Trauma. I know the legal position is that the dealer is responsible but I don't want to get their backs up at the moment as it will be difficult for ME to prove it had actually failed (I don't even have the failed device!) and end up fighting a combined Swift/Trauma/dealer alliance.
If the contamination problem does lie with gas quality from a certain supplier, I'm suprised an enterprising saleman from the opposition hasn't come up with a "buy your guaranteed clean, uncontaminated gas from XXXXX" campaign.
Dustydog, you may have something with the "Use thru' the year" idea. As John L suggested early on, the problem I had is possibly not due to contamination but may be a ruptured diaphram. Its also possible the rupture was caused by a build up of water followed by freeezing which may not happen if the system is used regularly through the winter. We use ours intensively during the summer, spending 2 months away in France followed by other breaks until October but it has lain dormant since then.
BTW I forgot to mention that the pressure checks the dealer does on the regulator test point showed no fault even with such an obviosly faulty regulator (they demonstrated this to me!). It must only check pressure downstream of the test point, surely this is something else for the caravan workshops to look at.

 

[Martin_E]

From all these posts it surprises me that Calor appear to have taken no interest in the matter at all.

I believe Calor have also spent some money trying to clear the gas side of things.

As an aside the actual flexible pipe between the gas cylinder and the regulator is date stamped and according to my dealer should be changed every five years. Mine was five years old last november yet the caravan was only three years old!!

very strange.

The five years is when gas is first passed through the gas pigtail as long as the pigtail has been stored correctly

 

[Damian]

I am not going to go into who is at fault, save to say that Truma have quite categorically stated that if oily residue is the cause of regulator failure they will NOT replace free of charge.

The notion that John L put forward of a ruptured diaphragm is nonsense, quite simply because you would, with Propane, have 6Bar of gas pressure through your system which you WOULD notice as the flames would be about 6 feet high!!!!!!!

Quote " I'm suprised an enterprising saleman from the opposition hasn't come up with a "buy your guaranteed clean, uncontaminated gas from XXXXX" campaign."

This will never happen , quite simply because LPG is a by product of oil, and odd as it may seem, the residue causing the damage is ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,oil.
Fitting a filter is not practical as there is no way of draining such a filter safely, and it would reduce the pressure available to the appliances, causing them to malfunction.

Dealers are not "sitting on the fence", nor are mobile mechanics, we are caught in a catch 22 situation where most of us feel the regs SHOULD be exchanged, but as Truma have said no, what can WE do, certainly not take the hit of numerous failed regs, as it is not OUR fault they fail.
If anyone is to blame it is the British Government for taking the EU directive and actually implementing it, instead of just ignoring it as Germany, France and other countries have, and still fit 30mb cylinder mounted regulators.

 

[joeby]

Our van was brand new in 2007 and we caravan all year , yet we havent had any trouble with our gas and nor have any of my friends who have newish vans , so how can it be a Calor problem , or the new regulators