Gafferbill said:
What is the basis of your belief? Can you offer another credible explanation for the oil deposition?
What is the basis of your belief? Can you offer another credible explanation for the oil deposition?
Damian
Moderator
Quote " I personally do not think the gas product is the problem. "
As Prof.John l has asked,,,,,,if you do not think it is the gas, what do you think it is.
I would be very interested in your reply.
The things to consider are:
1. A cylinder of gas.
2. A means of connecting the gas to the van ,
3.The gas in the cylinder just sits there until it is used.
4 The connection to the van and the van pipework just sit there until gas is passed into the system.
5. Once the two components are brought together,then the residue problem arises.
6. The residue has always been present,even in the older systems which did not use 30mB bulkhead regulators, you probably did not keep a van long enough for the problem of blocked pipes to manifest itself.
As Prof.John l has asked,,,,,,if you do not think it is the gas, what do you think it is.
I would be very interested in your reply.
The things to consider are:
1. A cylinder of gas.
2. A means of connecting the gas to the van ,
3.The gas in the cylinder just sits there until it is used.
4 The connection to the van and the van pipework just sit there until gas is passed into the system.
5. Once the two components are brought together,then the residue problem arises.
6. The residue has always been present,even in the older systems which did not use 30mB bulkhead regulators, you probably did not keep a van long enough for the problem of blocked pipes to manifest itself.
Dustydog,
What type of regulator does your Wyoming have? (I assume the van is a Bailey and that they fit the same regulators to all their vans).
Cheers, AllanH
What type of regulator does your Wyoming have? (I assume the van is a Bailey and that they fit the same regulators to all their vans).
Cheers, AllanH
Gafferbill said:
I share that view, "the problem" is that these regulators can't live with the residue; as has been said the residue itself is not a new issue, its the regulator jamming from it that is the current problem.
That in no way supports the acceptance of dirty gas or leaching of plasticisers some blame on the regulators jamming; things should be clean, but it is these regulators, unlike those before, not tolerating the actual environment they are sold to work in, that is the problem. Arguably they are not "fit for purpose", ie., use within our caravanning/motorhoming gas systems.
I'm sure Gary wont mind me pasting his script from years ago.
Note his suggested possible cure with the pig tails..
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Posted 25 August 2008 - 04:13 PM
QUOTE (rob_jax @ Aug 25 2008, 01:22 PM)
So maybe I'm being too hard on the designers - maybe they just fitted the new regulator to the existing pipework without thinking.
Robert
Well who can blame them when the rigid pipe leading off is low and there's a handy flexible to connect the bottle, on the face of it it was an obvious choice thumbup.gif
Said nothing since the report but don't waste money on fancy hoses no.gif it ain't the cause and never was, how on earth can an egg cup full leach out of half a meter of hose emdunno.gif
As said then better to raise the regulator as far as possible and turn it over so anything getting out the bottle has more chance to drain back in.
As I suggested years ago though and as an alternative, get a longer pig tail, form it into a deep loop and tie it off at the top. this will form an effective trap, is something you can DIY and allow the regulator to stay where it is.
Also never travel with the bottle open and leave it to settle for as long as possible after arrival before turning on slowly
Further older type single stage regulators allow the oil to pass through, might even benefit from the lubrication? these are also cheaper regs and as mentioned are available for bulkhead mounting from BES.
Not tried the hot water trick so can't comment but an interesting idea!
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Note his suggested possible cure with the pig tails..
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Posted 25 August 2008 - 04:13 PM
QUOTE (rob_jax @ Aug 25 2008, 01:22 PM)
So maybe I'm being too hard on the designers - maybe they just fitted the new regulator to the existing pipework without thinking.
Robert
Well who can blame them when the rigid pipe leading off is low and there's a handy flexible to connect the bottle, on the face of it it was an obvious choice thumbup.gif
Said nothing since the report but don't waste money on fancy hoses no.gif it ain't the cause and never was, how on earth can an egg cup full leach out of half a meter of hose emdunno.gif
As said then better to raise the regulator as far as possible and turn it over so anything getting out the bottle has more chance to drain back in.
As I suggested years ago though and as an alternative, get a longer pig tail, form it into a deep loop and tie it off at the top. this will form an effective trap, is something you can DIY and allow the regulator to stay where it is.
Also never travel with the bottle open and leave it to settle for as long as possible after arrival before turning on slowly
Further older type single stage regulators allow the oil to pass through, might even benefit from the lubrication? these are also cheaper regs and as mentioned are available for bulkhead mounting from BES.
Not tried the hot water trick so can't comment but an interesting idea!
Posted Image
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Arc Systems are specialist Carver caravan product repairers,
committed to providing a 'complete' range of spare parts for these popular heaters
Damian
Moderator
Quote " As I suggested years ago though and as an alternative, get a longer pig tail, form it into a deep loop and tie it off at the top. this will form an effective trap, is something you can DIY and allow the regulator to stay where it is."
With respect, this posting was a very long time ago, Rob Jax has been dead for a long time and this posting was about the time the problem was first being found to be as widespread as it was and is now.
Since that posting manufacturers have been mounting the regulators as high as possible and that was as a recommendation from the suppliers following the extensive research they did, along with the recommendation to have the pigtail form a continuous downward slope back to the cylinder.
The part above " get a longer pig tail, form it into a deep loop " is directly against the recommended advice and is impossible to do with the length of the pigtail being limited to 450mm for caravans.
Forming a loop would in fact make the situation even worse as the residue would build up in the loop and next time the cylinder is opened would send a large lump of reside straight into the regulator.
Another thing to consider is that the residue is found on the POL bullnose of the pigtail as well as through its length, and inside the cylinder valve, so if it is not the gas at fault as some seem to think, what IS the cause as only the cylinder contents pass through the pigtail, which is not only pure gas, but also a suspension of whatever else is in the cylinder.
So, rather than just saying "It is not the gas", come up with a feasible alternative cause.
With respect, this posting was a very long time ago, Rob Jax has been dead for a long time and this posting was about the time the problem was first being found to be as widespread as it was and is now.
Since that posting manufacturers have been mounting the regulators as high as possible and that was as a recommendation from the suppliers following the extensive research they did, along with the recommendation to have the pigtail form a continuous downward slope back to the cylinder.
The part above " get a longer pig tail, form it into a deep loop " is directly against the recommended advice and is impossible to do with the length of the pigtail being limited to 450mm for caravans.
Forming a loop would in fact make the situation even worse as the residue would build up in the loop and next time the cylinder is opened would send a large lump of reside straight into the regulator.
Another thing to consider is that the residue is found on the POL bullnose of the pigtail as well as through its length, and inside the cylinder valve, so if it is not the gas at fault as some seem to think, what IS the cause as only the cylinder contents pass through the pigtail, which is not only pure gas, but also a suspension of whatever else is in the cylinder.
So, rather than just saying "It is not the gas", come up with a feasible alternative cause.
JTQ said:
Hi JTQ,
I can see that argument, and to some extent I would agree the regulators should be designed to cope with real world situations. But that doesn't let the gas producers off the hook. There are various BS and EN standards which supplies should comply with, and having looked at the Automotive fuels — LPG — Requirements and test methods standards BS EN 598, the standards does not make any provision to accommodate fuel contamination with heavy ends.
So I'll bet Truma designed and manufactured their regulators to handle approved fuel formulas. and its perhaps time for the fuel suppliers to clean up their act.
Don't forget that if a regulator allows these contaminants through, they will collect elsewhere in the caravans gas system, and will eventually affect the performance or even stop other appliances.
ProfJohnL said:
........the basis of my belief is that Calor have stated that their gas products have not changed.
That is that their gas products have always contained heavy ends so any gas regulator sold should be able to cope with this fact.
The record of events shows that cylinder top regulators used to have no difficulty in coping with any gas product sold to caravanners and still do not cause problems where still in use.
Damian-Moderator said:
Here are some irrefutable facts for you to consider............
My current caravan was made by Swift in 1995 bought new by myself.
It has never been serviced by anyone other than me.
It has been towed for 71,193 miles
Used for 897 nights with around a 1/3 using gas only (no EHU)
It has always used Calor Propane with a cylinder top regulator for a gas supply.
Problems with the gas supply are as follows over a 20 year period.......
Water heater ..... none
Refrigerator ....... none
Oven+hob ........ none
Gas fire ..... Thermocouple replaced.
Broken Copper feed pipe replaced due to metal fatigue.... caused by inadequate fixing of
fire to caravan floor by Swift during manufacture allowing movement whilst towing.
New burner module from Arc Systems......old one rusted.
No regulator problems but replaced every 5 years anyway
Damian
Moderator
I have no reason to doubt your experiences, as has been said not everyone suffers with the problem.
I personally have never had any issues with blocked regulators but have changed over 100 which have failed due to oily residue.
As far as cylinder mounted regulators go I have changed quite few due to old age and six which had rusted internally and allowed cylinder pressure gas into the van
I have no doubt Calor have not changed their gas and that heavy ends have been part of that at all times it is just that those residues pass through the single stage regulators but get trapped in the two stage regulators.
In a lot if cases the residue will be burnt off but on some vans it blocks the pipes or damages the gas valves, all of which I have dealt with over the years.
I personally have never had any issues with blocked regulators but have changed over 100 which have failed due to oily residue.
As far as cylinder mounted regulators go I have changed quite few due to old age and six which had rusted internally and allowed cylinder pressure gas into the van
I have no doubt Calor have not changed their gas and that heavy ends have been part of that at all times it is just that those residues pass through the single stage regulators but get trapped in the two stage regulators.
In a lot if cases the residue will be burnt off but on some vans it blocks the pipes or damages the gas valves, all of which I have dealt with over the years.
Hello Gaffer,
We all know when so many there are so many variables to consider, that a single experience how ever good (or bad) can never be taken as indicative of the situation for the whole cohort.
We each have different experiences, and some of us have a wider experience because of our past or current professions. My experience was working with caravan LPG installations for over 15 years, retiring from that on a day to day aspect some 20 years ago.I must have dealt with thousands of systems in that time. Similarly Damian is currently working in the field and has probably also attended thousands of systems. I am certain our experiences will have encompassed a much wider range of circumstances and given us a the chance to make a more balanced appraisal of the situation.
I state categorically the issue of residues finding their way into caravan gas systems has been occurring for at least 35 years. The long history predates 30mB bulkhead regulators. The frequency seems to have increased, and may seem to affect some products more adversely than others.
Recent investigations strongly points to the cylinders being the source of the residues. There is the distinct possibility the changes to the gas suppliers protocols for cleaning and filling cylinders have allowed higher levels of contamination to build up inside. But equally new appliance designs may be more susceptible to being affected by residues.
We all know when so many there are so many variables to consider, that a single experience how ever good (or bad) can never be taken as indicative of the situation for the whole cohort.
We each have different experiences, and some of us have a wider experience because of our past or current professions. My experience was working with caravan LPG installations for over 15 years, retiring from that on a day to day aspect some 20 years ago.I must have dealt with thousands of systems in that time. Similarly Damian is currently working in the field and has probably also attended thousands of systems. I am certain our experiences will have encompassed a much wider range of circumstances and given us a the chance to make a more balanced appraisal of the situation.
I state categorically the issue of residues finding their way into caravan gas systems has been occurring for at least 35 years. The long history predates 30mB bulkhead regulators. The frequency seems to have increased, and may seem to affect some products more adversely than others.
Recent investigations strongly points to the cylinders being the source of the residues. There is the distinct possibility the changes to the gas suppliers protocols for cleaning and filling cylinders have allowed higher levels of contamination to build up inside. But equally new appliance designs may be more susceptible to being affected by residues.
What happened to all the Boffins who were investigating this problem.
A joint investigation was carried out by experts from Truma, Calor, The CC, The C&CC and an " Expert" from Practical Caravan Magazine and oh yes The NCC.
Surely with all these experts an answer was found.
The NCC issued a written statement which was inconclusive ut suggested not all Calor service centres around the UK were involved.
Maybe one of these experts can let us know the answer.
A joint investigation was carried out by experts from Truma, Calor, The CC, The C&CC and an " Expert" from Practical Caravan Magazine and oh yes The NCC.
Surely with all these experts an answer was found.
The NCC issued a written statement which was inconclusive ut suggested not all Calor service centres around the UK were involved.
Maybe one of these experts can let us know the answer.
Hello Prof,
I know little about gas regulators, but for many years I have used Gaslow auto changeover valve/ regulator more latterly with the stainless steel pigtails. The regulator is fitted high on the bulkhead, as it was on my last 3 vans, and I have used Calorgas and Flowgas.i have never had any sort of problems with the Gaslow set up and wonder if that kit differs in some way from Truma?
I know little about gas regulators, but for many years I have used Gaslow auto changeover valve/ regulator more latterly with the stainless steel pigtails. The regulator is fitted high on the bulkhead, as it was on my last 3 vans, and I have used Calorgas and Flowgas.i have never had any sort of problems with the Gaslow set up and wonder if that kit differs in some way from Truma?
Damian
Moderator
Sproket said:
That article has no real significance, all he is doing is reiterating already published possible reasons and possible cures, none of which have either been proven to be the cause or the solution.
I was at Truma when he came to take photos of various aspects of testing and servicing of various equipment, and as nice a chap as he was, he was not actually qualified in gas installations and not very knowledgeable about the equipment.
He was a journalist producing a product.
Quote " What happened to all the Boffins who were investigating this problem"
They all gave up as no one could find out exactly what was causing the problem and none of them had the money or will to carry on with investigations.
Quote " .i have never had any sort of problems with the Gaslow set up and wonder if that kit differs in some way from Truma? "
I believe that the gaslow set up uses a single stage regulator, specifically the Clesse unit.
I've a Truma DuoControl regulator in my caravan (with short stainless steel pigtails) - so is that version of regulator more or less likely to fail than other Truma regulators - is there a recommended alternative for an automatic changeover regulator if/when it does fail ?
Damian
Moderator
In my experience I have never had to change a Duo Comfort due to oiling up, but that is not to say it will not happen, but it seems they are not as vulnerable for some reason.
Now that has sealed the fate of yours.............................
Now that has sealed the fate of yours.............................
Rodone said:
Thank you for your question. Unfortunately I cannot answer it specifically as I have pointed out its 20 years since I was directly involved with gas installations, and a lot has changed. I would surmise that all the manufacturers you mention source their regulators from different suppliers, so its entirely likely their response to contamination will be different. Damian has offered some insight so I guess the answer to your specif question is all the different models and makes do differ.
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