Gas regulators on 2004 on vans

[gary]

...just to muddy the water! a little more,

A customer told me this afternoon of his friends trouble recently, this require a change of regulator the third!!. This dealer said he had done thirty that week!!!.

What examination could be given aparantly showed "corrosion"? and no sign of 'oil' of any colour. The gas was Butane, (not Calor incidently), and Butane always contains a little water..that's the bit of 'gas' you never seem to get out at the end of a Butane bottle??

Perhaps with this new remote regulator system it's found a way out???.

Whether it's heavy ends, water or both and I know it's not the solution but as an intrim measure, I would using this post 2003 system allow the gas to settle for perhaps an hour on arrival before turning on, because one things for sure both are heavier than the liquid gas and will sink.

 

[rob_jax]

I've just checked the minimum UK refinery specifications of Propane and Butane fuel gases, and reproduce them here:

Propane Gas Butane Gas

Methane nil nil

Ethane 0.5% max nil

Propane 99.0% min nil

Iso-butane 0.5% max 2.0% max

Butane nil 96.5% min

Pentane nil 1.5% max

Hexane nil nil

Water nil nil

In the above "nil" means less than 0.00001%

When the fuel gas leaves the refinery there should not be any water or heavy compounds (something that won't easily vaporise at room temperature) in the gas at all.

The contamination could come from the bottle cleaning and refilling process, which would probably manifest itself as a regional or refiller issue.

The contamination could come from the use of the wrong odourant chemical.

The contamination could come from the process used to manufacture the flexible piping or the regulator. This could be a batch issue or could affect all products.

Which one of the above, or which combination of the above is the problem needs further investigation.

Robert

 

[vauxhall2]

hi rob this is what i was trying to say before.there is no point of putting on a new regulator and forgetting about it.it needs sorting out by someone in the know.30 in one week for one supplier/dealer must put some red lights on.

 

[rob_jax]

I've just checked the minimum UK refinery specifications of Propane and Butane fuel gases, and reproduce them here:

Propane Gas Butane Gas

Methane nil nil

Ethane 0.5% max nil

Propane 99.0% min nil

Iso-butane 0.5% max 2.0% max

Butane nil 96.5% min

Pentane nil 1.5% max

Hexane nil nil

Water nil nil

In the above "nil" means less than 0.00001%

When the fuel gas leaves the refinery there should not be any water or heavy compounds (something that won't easily vaporise at room temperature) in the gas at all.

The contamination could come from the bottle cleaning and refilling process, which would probably manifest itself as a regional or refiller issue.

The contamination could come from the use of the wrong odourant chemical.

The contamination could come from the process used to manufacture the flexible piping or the regulator. This could be a batch issue or could affect all products.

Which one of the above, or which combination of the above is the problem needs further investigation.

Robert

Great,

I laid the above table all neatly formatted, and then the forum engine kindly reformatted it for me. Bu**er. The sooner PCM gets an up to date forum engine the better.

Robert

 

[rob_jax]

Hi Michael,

I've got a spare GOK (old) regulator - the next time I'm in my office in Rotterdam I think I'll have cut up to see what's inside, and then get any liquids analysed.

Robert

 

[keith_5081818]

As a test i tried to clean out a regulator that was affected, by spraying brake cleaner into it from both ends & filling the inlet & connecting to a bottle to push it through, this was the same regulator from my previous post that was passing gas slowly.

Didnt work though, still got a bit through but no more, i'll let it dry out & couple it up later to see if anything happens.

 

[MichaelE]

I have had 1 fail on my van which I got changed under warranty no problem, but I had heard of other peoples failing too.

I went to the Caravan Show at Earls Court on Wednesday and spoke to Truma about it , they said they know about it and it has cost them a fortune , he also added that they changed over 200 last month and it is down to black/yellow oil in the regulator. He then added that the oil substance is not generated by them and is down to the Gas companies and it does seem to be only certain regions.

At the moment he said they are just changing them, but soon this will stop as it is not their problem !!!

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Kieth & Michael E

Kieth using brake cleaner is not a good idea, for two main reasons, The cleaner will remove any lubricants designed to be included inside the regulator, to keep the small linkages free and operational, And the cleaner may attack the compounds used in the diaphragm which if it becomes denatured will be come stiff and prevent correct regulation or at worst it may puncture or crack in which case you will have a gas leak. Over all not a good idea.

Michael, as I understand it Truma do not make their own regulators, they are purchased from a company called "Gok", though it may be to a Truma design. There is a steaming debate about where the residue found in faulty regulators comes from. Sadly unless a manufacturer actually holds up their hands and say "We're responsible" or some one like PC starts to collate information and has an actual public analysis done on the residue to identify its source there will be uninformed debate.

The upshot is the customer ends up paying for someones else's mistake.

 

[ianfionarandall]

We to have been a victim of this problem, now resolved with a replacement regulator, but we are left wondering how long the new one will last?

Does anyone (industry insider perhaps) have any update as to the causes and possible solutions to this problem?

Regards

Ian

 

[ianfionarandall]

We to have been a victim of this problem, now resolved with a replacement regulator, but we are left wondering how long the new one will last?

Does anyone (industry insider perhaps) have any update as to the causes and possible solutions to this problem?

Regards

Ian

Meant to add that IMHO anyone with a van fitted with the new Truma 30mb regulator is likely to see it fail in the first year of use from the anecdotal information available.

 

[vauxhall2]

hi all the latest i have on the regulators/FROM UKCS

I wrote to Truma and this was the reply they sent to me. I have just purchased a new caravan fitted with the new fixed Truma regulator and find lots of other caravanners complaining of loss of gas to appliances and having to replace the regulator ,as I go off to france each year I wonder how I will manage if this is a major problem and it happens to me, can you advise me on a cure? could I revert to an old style regulator till I get the problem solved I would appreciate a helpfull reply.

Thanks in advance Derek Burton.

----- Original Message -----

From: Chris Aston

Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 12:24 PM

Subject: RE: new regulators

Dear Sir,

The issue which you speak of is a problem with oil residue entering the regulator and damaging the internal workings. It doesn't just affect the Truma regulator system. As an industry we are investigating where this oil is coming from to enable us to eradicate the issue.

Carrying a spare regulator may be an answer but as the regulator is now part of the vehicles gas supply system you would need to qualified to carry out the change of the regulator.

Until we can it is clear where the contamination comes from it is difficult to give you the answer that you are looking for.

Regards,

Chris Aston.

 

[Jeremy_5088972]

I had a problem on my new 2005 Elddis. Switched on the gas hob and it lit fine. However, after a few seconds the gas pressure died. I had to have a new fixed regulator fitted.

The strange thing is I used the same gas bottle on my old Bailey with the old type regulator and had no problems at all.

So why are the new, fixed regulators more prone to this type of problem than the old type regulators?

 

[Guest]

Can some of the technical boffins please clarify the exact state of affairs regarding these new? regulations. According to what I have read all units after September 2003 must have a gas regulator that meets the EH12864 regulatiuon. However, this regulation does not stipulate the regulator has to be fixed to the main plumbing of the van, it can be a clip on unit as previously supplied for many years. In fact many UK suppliers are still offering regulators that meet EN12864 as clip on units. Even Calor are today advertising the clip on regulator.

I am totally confused.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I had a problem on my new 2005 Elddis. Switched on the gas hob and it lit fine. However, after a few seconds the gas pressure died. I had to have a new fixed regulator fitted.

The strange thing is I used the same gas bottle on my old Bailey with the old type regulator and had no problems at all.

So why are the new, fixed regulators more prone to this type of problem than the old type regulators?

Hello Jeremy,

A thought occurred to me about your problem. If you were using Butane gas (Calor blue bottles, was the outside temperature near or below freezing? If so, then the problem may not have been your regulator, but the fact that Butane gas will not vapourise very well at freezing or below, and so the bottle may have been too cold. If you are winter caravanning, it much better to change to Propane ( Calor red bottles) which good ti use down to minus 30C!

 

[keith_5081818]

I had a problem on my new 2005 Elddis. Switched on the gas hob and it lit fine. However, after a few seconds the gas pressure died. I had to have a new fixed regulator fitted.

The strange thing is I used the same gas bottle on my old Bailey with the old type regulator and had no problems at all.

So why are the new, fixed regulators more prone to this type of problem than the old type regulators?

Ive been told the reason is, that the new regulators have an extra pair of neoprene pressure reducing seals & the oil is sticking them together so no or little gas can get through.

 

[keith_5081818]

hi,not a gas expert,never will be.does the general opinion go for a faulty batch of gas regulators.

No its not that the regulators are faulty, its that theres oil in some botttles and the design of the regulators didnt or couldn't take coming into contact with the oil.

However does that make all the regulators actually faulty because they've been designed wrongly. ???????

 

[vauxhall2]

hi,ask here for information and more...www.calor.co.uk

 

[Guest]

Thanks for the info. I have looked at the calor page and been doing a bit of digging to see if I can understand the whole picture.

From what I can see the UK is the only country that has made major changes. The principal change appears to be that we now fix the regulator to the bulkhead wall and run a hose to the cylinder. This means the hose will be taking the whole pressure of the cylinder and I am not really surprised leaks can occur. Our neighbours across the water still keep the regulator hard fixed to the cylinder so the hose only takes the regulated pressure. Regulators applicable to fixing to UK cylinders do not appear to be available. We are also told the changes will allow us to refill cylinders on the Continent but I have yet to see where Calor approve this. If you buy a cylinder on the Continent it will only be applicable to that particular country and will require a unique hose. Presumably such a cylinder can be re-filled here in the UK.

I am also unsure what effect increasing the butane pressure from 28mb to 30mb is actually going to have on equipment. I have read reports in some of the maritime pages where the current regulators have been used without problem for several years.

 

[rob_jax]

IN Holland, pre EN12864, you had a choice of at least three different gas regulator pressures (28, 30 and 60).

28 and 30mbar didn't make any real difference to the operation of your cooker or fridge if you got the regulator mixed up, but ideally if your van was equipped with 28mbar appliances, you keep with a 28mbar regulator.

There were a number of "events" when people used a 60mbar regulator with 30mbar rated appliances or the other way around (but not as spectacular).

A fixed regulator with a dedicated high pressure pig-tail hose (bottle specific) is standard in Holland - same as the UK.

Since each gas supplier in Europe has their own bottle design, fill weight, bottle construction, etc., and when an empty is sent back it is reconditioned - inspected, dents removed, repair, crack tested, and repainted.

So it's unrealistic to expect that an empty bottle of Elfgaz you bought in France would be of any use to Calor in the UK, or a Calor bottle to Shell in Holland.

Robert

 

[Jeremy_5088972]

Hello Jeremy,

A thought occurred to me about your problem. If you were using Butane gas (Calor blue bottles, was the outside temperature near or below freezing? If so, then the problem may not have been your regulator, but the fact that Butane gas will not vapourise very well at freezing or below, and so the bottle may have been too cold. If you are winter caravanning, it much better to change to Propane ( Calor red bottles) which good ti use down to minus 30C!

It was in October when the temperatures were well above freezing.

 

[Guest]

Point taken regarding the situation in Holland. However, my own van is German sourced and was supplied with a cylinder mountable 30mb regulator and obviously a LP hose. Unfortunately, the connection won't fit the UK Calor cylinders so I either have to get a German cylinder, which is impractical, or change out the system. The gas pipe on the bulkhead sticks out at 90 degrees and has a hose nipple on the end, so in order to fit a wall mounted regulator I am going to have to cut the pipe and fit a new compression fitting. I felt it would have been a lot easier to have had the new regulators designed to fit straight onto the cylinders, as we have done very happily for many years. I usually only carry one 7kg butane cylinder and a Camping Gaz as backup. Basically lasts the whole summer.

I was also curious regarding using propane. It has a lower calorific value than butane which was the main reason for having the higher pressure of 37 mb. Reducing this to 30 mb means the output is lower and so is less effective than before. That is progress EU style I suppose??

 

[Lutz]

If you've got a caravan with a Continental regulator, you can easily fit an appropriate adapter to connect with a UK bottle. Such adapters are readily available.

 

[Guest]

Thanks for that. However, I think I have already shot myself in the foot as my wife now tells me I was the 'idiot' who handed back the regulator to the dealer stating 'we didn't need it' Until now that is. I have just been raking in the spares box and did wonder where it was. That is old age and a memory loss for you. I now have a 2005 caravan and 4 separate 28mb regulators for all types of cylinders and having to start again.

 

[rob_jax]

Hi Scotch Lad,

I've also got a German designed van - actually made by the Hymer factory in France - and we have the UK style bulkhead connector.

As you rightly say, there is a difference in the calorific value between Propane and Butane - actually just less than a 10 percent difference - and you shouldn't notice this when cooking, and only if you run the heating on max all the time.

I would suggest fitting Dutch style LP hose - it's made from thick wall rubber tubing and looks similar to the high pressure EN tubing - and it is date stamped so you can see when you need to change it. If you want more info on this stuff let me know.

Robert

 

[Graham_5082021]

As there had been no further postings for some time I thought the problem of blocked regulators had gone away. Wrong!

I spent Easter on a rally and one of my friends had the classic symptoms - the cooker lit for a few seconds and then went out, repeatedly. Sadly he thought the gas bottle was faulty and he took a local dealer who exchanged it. Naturally this did not solve his problem. Luckily another friend who knew about the problems I'd had and about this forum was around at the time and put him wise. Shortly after, I returned to site and joined them in trying to get some gas working in the 'van.

I remembered the idea that involved using an old type regulator and then feeding the gas in through the barbecue point. Between us we found all the necessary parts, including a test gauge, and tried it. It worked perfectly and the test gauge revealed no leaks.

I have now made up a pipe with an old regulator, a short length of gas hose and a barbecue nipple. This will now stay permanently in the spares box that goes everywhere with us, just in case it happens again.