gas

[allan873]

Hi, I have been caravanning since the 1960s summer and winter and have always kept the gas cylinder outside the front of the van we started off with two small cylinders and as the years went on graduated to 13kg.propane I have just been informed by the Caravan Club that it no longer permits this, I suppose its another Health & Safety thing to blyte our lives I hope other sites dont go down this road what do you think.

Allan

 

[Dustydog]

Hi Allan

Here's the CC official script. It does make sense and at the end of the day most of their rules / guidelines are there to safeguard all of us. Look on the brightside. Using the smaller cylinders may save you getting a hernia!

Cheers

Dustydog

The practice of using a larger propane cylinder standing outside the caravan is not recommended for several reasons. To transport the cylinder to the caravan site usually requires it to be carried on its side in the car boot, which is not recommended. This is because if any liquid LPG seeps up through the threaded top, it could gasify in the car boot with potentially dangerous results. Also, unless the cylinder is properly secured in a cradle, the consequences of even a minor accident could be serious. Once on site, the cylinder is then vulnerable to tampering by inquisitive children or pranksters and, unless properly secured, could be knocked over.

 

[Damian]

Quote " I suppose its another Health & Safety thing to blyte our lives I hope other sites dont go down this road what do you think."

No it is not just another H&S thing to blight our (or your) life.

It IS a matter of everyones safety on site.

Cylinders exposed to the weather with the normal regulators on them are at the mercy of the climate and the regulator has a breather hole in it which will draw in water and rust the spring mechanism within, leaving you with full cylinder pressure to all the equipment inside your van, which if not detected will cause major risk if one of the appliances is used.

It is not a new ruling, it has been around for a long time.

I hope every site strictly enforces this very serious issue and put a stop to all external cylinders when in use on a caravan.

 

[vauxhall2]

C.C.Club too have this rulling now,sure i read it somewhere.

 

[allan873]

Quote " I suppose its another Health & Safety thing to blyte our lives I hope other sites dont go down this road what do you think."

No it is not just another H&S thing to blight our (or your) life.

It IS a matter of everyones safety on site.

Cylinders exposed to the weather with the normal regulators on them are at the mercy of the climate and the regulator has a breather hole in it which will draw in water and rust the spring mechanism within, leaving you with full cylinder pressure to all the equipment inside your van, which if not detected will cause major risk if one of the appliances is used.

It is not a new ruling, it has been around for a long time.

I hope every site strictly enforces this very serious issue and put a stop to all external cylinders when in use on a caravan.

Sorry but after over 40 years of haveing a propane bottle outside my van without any problem and about traveling with the bottle inside the car on its side which could be a problem if the gas leaked what about the forklift trucks that run on gas and the danger of haveing the bottle in the car which could be dangerous in the event of an accident what about the 2 6 KG bottles the van is designed to carry I still think its another H&S issue gone daft.

Allan

 

[Guest]

I am inclined to agree with Allan that although at first the 'rule' seems logical, it has not been thought through, or measured with any common sense.

Caravans have always had external gas bottles from the early days of literally connecting it with a hose, to clamping them to the drawbar, are old classic vans to be now banned?? and even today although they are inside a locker, they are still deliberately exposed to all moisture and damp, as per the same H&S issues. Cylinder mounted regulators are usually well made and tested before sale so unless you decide to take one apart, it will function very happily for many years. Calor recommend replacement after 10 years. As they are designed to fit to bottles often connected to BBQ's, and all sorts of outdoor domestic and industrial equipment then the limited exposure is unlikely to cause damage in the use proposed by caravanners such as Allan. Even the Road Department carries a couple of propane bottles on the back of their lorries for tar heating, and they are out in all sorts of weather. So, assuming this directive is to be taken as read, then no one should have any freestanding outside cylinder connected through a cylinder mounted regulator to any equipment such as BBQ, and of course all tent users will have to revert back to Primus stoves. That knocks the idea of a Cadec with a hose connected cylinder outside the awning for the summer season on the head. One could also look at static, or long term touring caravans where indeed many do have the external cylinders mounted securely in frames, however many do not, and these can also be on sites operated by the CC, even if not owned.

Of course no one wishes to see stupid activity with any gas equipment, but a blanket ban is typical H&S OTT reaction. It is probably more to do with litigation concerns than actual danger. Any warden with an ounce of common sense can soon see if anyone is doing something stupid, and a quiet word would suffice to resolve the issue.

What Allan could do is clamp his big bottle to the A Frame as per the way many French and German vans have a single bottle mounted, all exposed, and see if he still falls foul of the 'rules'.

 

[GrahamDerby]

Quote " I suppose its another Health & Safety thing to blyte our lives I hope other sites dont go down this road what do you think."

No it is not just another H&S thing to blight our (or your) life.

It IS a matter of everyones safety on site.

Cylinders exposed to the weather with the normal regulators on them are at the mercy of the climate and the regulator has a breather hole in it which will draw in water and rust the spring mechanism within, leaving you with full cylinder pressure to all the equipment inside your van, which if not detected will cause major risk if one of the appliances is used.

It is not a new ruling, it has been around for a long time.

I hope every site strictly enforces this very serious issue and put a stop to all external cylinders when in use on a caravan.

I have been caravaning now for over 30 years and for a long time have put a 13k propane outside for as long as i can remember without any trouble.I think this is a way of getting more money out of us as its cheaper to buy a 13 than a 6. I rang Gaslow about getting a longer pipe and was told it would have to be steel braided, when i asked why i was told it was to stop squirels eating through the pipe as they like propane !!!! .I keep thinking was it April first when i called them. I think i read somewhere it was ok for a 13k outside so long as it was secured to stop it falling over but that is the largest permitted.Can anyone clarify that.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I have not had this clarified by the CC or C&CC but the problem is that unsecured gas bottles is that they can become a flame thrower or projectile if the bottle tips over and a fire occurs.

Now imagine what a projectile gas bottle could do to a caravan site - perhaps Top Gear might like to try this as a new way to eliminate multiple caravans in one go.

 

[Dustydog]

Whilst I have no evidence , I suspect this Club Rule and indeed the sensible guideline explained by Damian all emanate from Insurers.

Insurers employ Risk Managers whose sole task is to reduce hazards. Gas is a hazard and I bet it is the Insurer seeking to reduce the risk.

I have seen serious fires invoving gas cylinders. Believe me you don't want to be anywhere near them. Read all about the last cylinder fire at BOC Bristol a few weeks ago.

Rightly or wrongly all the CC are doing is sensibly seeking to protect all their members on site.

Cheers

Dustydog

 

[DomDom]

The biggest issue is carrying cylinders in the boot of a car. Unless secured with a 2" ratchet strap or a proper cylinder cradle this is extremely dangerous. In the event of a crash the kinetic energy in one of those things is enormous and would kill anyone in its way stone dead. Self preservation alone should prevent anyone from doing this.

As regards classic vans etc, modification is the order of the day. Things move on and we should keep up with the safety related changes. None of the 40 year old vans were fitted with stabilisers but I'll bet most people have retro-fitted them. And if anyone doubts that gas cylinders pose a serious safety risk when mistreated then go look at the BOC fire details a little more closely.

Dom

 

[ProfJohnL]

When I was preparing my reply above, I considered relating some experiences I have had, but decided it may not be necessary, but Dominics last reply worries me.

Quote

"The biggest issue is carrying cylinders in the boot of a car. Unless secured with a 2" ratchet strap or a proper cylinder cradle this is extremely dangerous. In the event of a crash the kinetic energy in one of those things is enormous and would kill anyone in its way stone dead. Self preservation alone should prevent anyone from doing this."

I must add that it is not recommended to carry gas bottles in side the car not even the boot.

However I recognise that many people do carry gas bottle that way, and I fully agree with Dominic's point about securing them, but there is another equally serious issue with carrying gas bottles inside cars. Most people I have seen who have carried gas bottles in their cars lie them down on their side. As Dustydog pointed out above this is highly dangerous.

Any bottle that is more than half full will when lying on its side cover the valve with liquefied gas not vapour.

Any leakage through the valve will dump Liquefied gas from the bottle. This is approximately 270 x more compressed than the normal vapour you draw off, which means that the leak is about 270 times worse. Both the liquefied gas and the vapour are heavier than air, and as such they will collect in the footwells of cars.

When you consider that you only need a gas to air ratio of about 8 to 12% to form a combustible explosive mixture, it doesn't take much of a leak to produce a highly dangerous situation. Sources of ignition could be the switch on the foot brake that turns the brake lights on, the glove box light or glowing cigarette ash.

I have seen pictures of a car where such a thing happened. The roof had been ripped open like a tin of beans. The occupant sadly did not survive his injuries.

I previously pointed out that a gas bottle can become a projectile; in fact it is a self propelled projectile with no direction control. - How much of a projectile - well I was called in to help a company with their quality assurance system. I learned that some years earlier they had an incident where a fork lift driver has misjudged the height of the load on his forks, and he collided with a door lintel. The shock wave of the collision shook the wall against which a few meters away a 47Kg Propane bottle had been stood to supply a temporary space heater.

The bottle fell over, and it is assumed that gas feed hose became taught and the bottle valve was damaged. There was an escape of gas, which eventually was ignited. The flame rapidly spread back to the fallen bottle which because of the new heat source began to warm up. This increases the pressure inside the bottle, and in this case it was enough to cause the valve assembly to be expelled from the bottle.

At this point the escape of gas became like a rocket engine and the bottle was propelled across the yard gathering speed and momentum. It smashed into a brick wall of a warehouse demolishing a 3m section. Once inside the ware house it was deflected by things it touched and it became air borne and made its exit punching through the steel coated wall panels 3m up on the other side of the w.house.

The bottle ended up in a burning wood copse some 60 or 70m from where it started. Throughout its journey it was spraying droplets of burning LPG which stared numerous fires en route. The valve assembly was found embedded in a reinforced concrete pillar.

It was amazing that no-one was injured even though about 6 people were close enough to witness the incident.

This incident had cost the company over

 

[Dustydog]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-457898/Welder-killed-gas-blast-fireball.html#ixzz0cxuvdPI1
Try this about a bloke with a gas cylinder in his van. It exploded and he's dead. Say no more.

Cheers

Dustydog

 

[ProfJohnL]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-457898/Welder-killed-gas-blast-fireball.html#ixzz0cxuvdPI1

Try this about a bloke with a gas cylinder in his van. It exploded and he's dead. Say no more.

Cheers

Dustydog

Hello Dusty,

Pretty horrific. from the scale of the damage, my suspicion on this one is that the gas that exploded was neither propane or Butane, but more likely acetylene (he was a welder).

Having said that it is no excuse to be reckless with any flammable gas system.

 

[Guest]

I could point out that Allan's OP was about having the cylinder freestanding alongside his van while on site. He made no mention of the security aspects while transporting it, and for all we know he has a designed cradle in his vehicle, or not. One could also point out that the cylinder he is using is much squatter than even the normal touring sizes and therefore if you wish to be pedantic, could be classed as even more stable.

However, his issue, and the replies indicated that the CC and the C&CC have instigated a ban on freestanding cylinders, and although I at this time have not actually read the script of this ban, it does raise the issue of how one should handle a freestanding cylinder not connected to the van, or motorhome. If one that is connected is a safety hazard then so is the other that is not. That patio cylinder or Camping Gaz cylinder connected to the BBQ, is that in a security cradle??

A comment was made regarding 'tampering by inquisitive children', which I find a bit far fetched. Firstly a propane cylinder such as Allan's is secured to the regulator by a screw connection so any child would need to 'borrow' Dad's spanner to be able to undo it. If they did manage to do this and left the tap on the cylinder open then the gas will certainly escape, but into open air. This will be more irritating rather than anything else unless of course some idiot decides to approach it with a lighted match. Possibly there are 'feral kids' on sites who would do this, but I would suspect it is remote. Similarly do you know of any kids who carry pickaxes around so they can puncture a cylinder such as this? If so, then please let us all know so we can stay well away. If said 'feral kids' decided just to cut the hose then the gas escapes at 35 mb pressure and will take a while to empty, but again in open air the damage is slight. I suspect the biggest grievance would be the owner returning to find his cylinder empty.

The major danger with any gas cylinder is fire and the majority of incidents involving gas appliances happen inside the van or home. Out of curiosity I 'googled' for gas exlosions in caravans and the main link decribed an explosion in a carvan in 1955, again it happened inside the van. There are probably more recent but they have not made the internet headlines.

Nobody is advocating that people should do fullhardy things, but common sense will be far more effective than banning everything that moves. As many H&S Directives involve inspections, at a cost of course, then it is no wonder people get sceptical.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Scotch lad,

You make some valid point regarding the stability of the bottle. I believe one of the issues the CC and C&CC are concerned about is the possibility that the cylinder may be knocked over, or that if a caravan needs to be moved in an emergency the bottle would need to be disconnected safely first taking longer - there may also be an issue of appearance. You would have to confirm those points with the relevant clubs.

I come to your last paragraph; An act you observe as foolhardy is common sense to some one else, other wise why do they do it, so using common sense is not an effective control for safety.

 

[allan873]

Hello Scotch Lad, Thanks for your support but reading the other replies it looks like I am going to have to conform even though after 40 odd years caravannig I have never seen an accident caused by a gas cylinder outside a van and you pointed out when I started caravanning every van had the bottle outside so I say again another M&S fiasco.

Allan

 

[Gafferbill]

Allan .. what I have done is to carry a 13 kg Calor propane in my front locker.

I have a 1995 van and I had to modify the floor to get the cylinder in upright, and I realise this may cause problems for newer vans and warranties.

The cylinder is secured by a restraining chain and strap and is mounted centrally over the A frame.

I also have 6.5 Calor propane and a 902 Camping gas, which I can secure in the normal offset position in the front locker (not when I am carrying the 13kg cylinder).

 

[Gabsgrandad]

Doesn't any one replace whatever size bottles by fetching them in the car then??

I certainly do. (And I suspect many more do)

 

[ProfJohnL]

Doesn't any one replace whatever size bottles by fetching them in the car then??

I certainly do. (And I suspect many more do)

May be you do, and now perhaps you see the risk involved.

Juts because it has never happened to you yet, it only needs to happen once......

 

[Gafferbill]

...I do not agree in knocking health and safety.

I always maintain that Princess Diana died because the French did not recognise the need to fit Armco barriers along the central pillars in that Paris underpass.

In the UK there would have been Armco, the Mercedes would not have stopped dead and she would have likely survived.

The French do not have the equivalent of our Health & Safety Executive and I think it is very noticeable.

It makes sense to me not to have easily accessible gas cylinders on a campsite.

 

[GrahamDerby]

Hi Allan

I phoned the Caravan Clib today and asked them about outside gas bottles on CL sites, as i use them a lot, (cant afford propper sites). I was told they do not have any rule to say that you cant put a bottle outside , but they would prefer where poss the bottle to be inside, so mine will still be held on to the a frame with a bungee to stop it falling over even though i think the chance of that is remote.

 

[Guest]

Graham,

It is possible that because the CC does not actually own the CL sites, they cannot restrict what the owner wishes to do, or not. Did you ask about their directly owned sites to see if you received the same answer?

I would still like to know how they are going to handle unsecured cylinders attached to BBQ's etc, and whether tenters will be banned from cooking.

Gafferbill,

I suspect you need to look at things a little more pragmatically. Basically following your argument would mean all caravanning being banned as it is inherently unsafe. You have situations where live cables are lying on the ground, gas under pressure is attached to a container inside a box (which ironically contradicts the Calor advice to keep them away from closed spaces) and of course if you start to look at the weight issue, then H&S will have you at a standstill in no time.

Everything in life has a degree of risk, but the vast majority of us are sensible enough to know the boundaries, and to take proper cautions without carrying out a Risk Assessment prior to visiting the toilet block. Those that do not have that sense are unlikely to obey any H&S rules anyway.

As for an example I can only refer you to the Piper Alpha tragedy where those that obeyed the H&S guidelines perished, and those that did not survived. H&S has indeed advantages but it is not a 'be all and end all'.

As for the issue regarding the French, I do not wish to comment apart from stating that i have not seen too many instances of foolhardiness in France, that could not be also seen over here. As they are officially having happier lives than us then maybe they have the right ideas.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Graham,

It is possible that because the CC does not actually own the CL sites, they cannot restrict what the owner wishes to do, or not. Did you ask about their directly owned sites to see if you received the same answer?

I would still like to know how they are going to handle unsecured cylinders attached to BBQ's etc, and whether tenters will be banned from cooking.

Gafferbill,

I suspect you need to look at things a little more pragmatically. Basically following your argument would mean all caravanning being banned as it is inherently unsafe. You have situations where live cables are lying on the ground, gas under pressure is attached to a container inside a box (which ironically contradicts the Calor advice to keep them away from closed spaces) and of course if you start to look at the weight issue, then H&S will have you at a standstill in no time.

Everything in life has a degree of risk, but the vast majority of us are sensible enough to know the boundaries, and to take proper cautions without carrying out a Risk Assessment prior to visiting the toilet block. Those that do not have that sense are unlikely to obey any H&S rules anyway.

As for an example I can only refer you to the Piper Alpha tragedy where those that obeyed the H&S guidelines perished, and those that did not survived. H&S has indeed advantages but it is not a 'be all and end all'.

As for the issue regarding the French, I do not wish to comment apart from stating that i have not seen too many instances of foolhardiness in France, that could not be also seen over here. As they are officially having happier lives than us then maybe they have the right ideas.

Hi Scotch lad,

With reference to your comment " gas under pressure is attached to a container inside a box (which ironically contradicts the Calor advice to keep them away from closed spaces)"

The gas bottle locker on the front of a caravan is not a closed space. it is deliberately designed to allow the dispersal of any gas spillage by having ample ventilation. The ventilation is also essential for the gas bottle to work, as it relies on the heat it can absorb from the air surrounding it to boil the liquefied gas back into it a gaseous state.

the gas bottles

 

[Gafferbill]

...oooooH! I am pragmatic!

Unless it is an adult only campsite, then the whole campsite will be a playground for children of all ages who may not be able to recognise danger as easily as you say you can.

The supervision of the children will vary greatly from family to family.

I have been on a campsite (in France) where a mentally ******** teenager was left to ride his bike freely around the site.

Twice I caught him fiddling with our caravan and it's equipment..fortunately there was no gas cylinder he could get at!

 

[Guest]

John L,

Yes, the locker is ventilated, but in most cases it merely has a couple of slots in the bottom usually covered with wire mesh, and could even be partially obtructed by the gubbins that people are wont to put in there. A serious leak will mean the locker filling with gas before it has time to ventilate. Plus any gas that will fall out has a 50/50 option of dispersing in air, or going under the van. I just compare this with the option of the cylinder in totally open air and wonder which is indeed safer? Again, I am not proposing stupidity, but do question the thought processes that go into some of the 'rules' inflicted on us.

Gafferbill,

Again I comment that if parents are unable to explain to their children the 'do's and do not's' on a campsite, then I wish to keep well clear of them and fervently hope they decide to go back to holidaying in Butlins or whatever. I would be curious to know if any member of this Forum will admit that they willingly allow their kids to play in anyone else's pitch/outfit/awning. As for your experience in France, it is not what you would really call 'a common occurence'. You, youirself mention his limited mental ability so he was probably more curious than malicious, especially as you were Brits. As mentioned previously propane cylinders are attached by a screw nut, so he really could not do very much except turn it off, unless he was carrying a tool kit. In over 30 years of camping in tents/caravans and motorhomes in various countries, I have had incidents of course, but nothing that ever amounted to anything serious. Yes, you get the odd yokel who thinks your pitch is his/her pathway to the loo blocks, but usually a quiet word suffices. As for 'tampering', well I have seen equipment of all types, and value left outside outfits on sites abroad, and never any trouble. People will 99.9% of time respect other people's property and the other 0.1% will sooner or later get caught. Branding everyone guilty because of 0.1% is to my mind farcical. A bit like stopping your kids from going to school because you fear some lunatic may break in and shoot them. Yes, it happens tragically, but fortunately very rarely. Life has a degree of risk whatever, and often we need that to learn as we become adults.