Going Green isn’t easy

[otherclive]

I'm sorry Dusty but you have succumbed to the misunderstanding which has arisen around heat pumps. The type and construction of a building does not reduce the efficiency of a heat pump, in exactly the same way they would not affect the efficiency of a gas boiler or electric radiator. They type of building affects how well any heat put into the building is retained and how effective that heat is, but it does not affect the the efficiency of the appliance itself.

I think you are consistently reading HP as just the equipment itself. As myself, Dusty, JTQ, Gumpy, JC and others have indicated it’s the total system installation, which includes the house, that should determine the viability and efficiency of a heat pump installation. I think by now everyone is well aware that as a single piece of equipment a heat pump is more efficient than a gas boiler, your shed analogy explained that. But I venture to suggest that few if any existing houses built before 2000 could just swop a boiler for heat pump without substantial expense and disruption. If they did so, there’s a significant risk that the HP system would fail to meet expectations.

 

[Oscarmax]

I managed to get a grant for my Solar Thermal panels but nothing available to me now.

As for running it on an EV tariff I would need to buy an EV and at least double my battery capacity to cover the daytime, that's over £5k for the battery and inverter to do it.
Its all possible here and I have the knowledge and tech ability to make it happen but financially it's just not worth it and I can't afford it.
There are grants available but I believe you have to be on a benefit of some kind, complete solar, battery and heat pump cost of £40k was the last install I heard about. However it was badly done and they struggled to get the company to fix it.

Admission time: at present my average unit cost is 10.24p over the last 12 months, but that's because I never use electricity during the day relying on Solar and the lower 🐙 Agile prices during the night to charge the battery which has a >24hr runtime

We would happily change to a heat pump, if was a like for like, however even though our bungalow was a new build in 2017, the heating system uses 10mm push fit microbore. We have 4.4 kWh solar panels a 5.8 kWh battery and on Octopus Go EV 8.5 pence kWh tariff, we easily add a Fogstar 30kWh battery, however we are 70 years old and will fit a new Worcester Bosch Combi boiler in the next 2 years.

 

[GUMPY]

We would happily change to a heat pump, if was a like for like, however even though our bungalow was a new build in 2017, the heating system uses 10mm push fit microbore. We have 4.4 kWh solar panels a 5.8 kWh battery and on Octopus Go EV 8.5 pence kWh tariff, we easily add a Fogstar 30kWh battery, however we are 70 years old and will fit a new Worcester Bosch Combi boiler in the next 2 years.

At least my microbore is copper soldered😉
I assume that as the battery is 5.8kWh it's a SolaX system you have, is it really easy to add a Fogstar as the battery voltages are very different. My 3 battery SolaX is 350V a single one is 117V how does this fit with Fogstar?

As you may recall I have just had fitted a new boiler with weather comp, hence my playing with the way it works. One thing I will say for those with combi gas boilers is turn the flow temperature down. Yes the rads don't feel as hot but they do heat the room and the boiler runs more efficiently and at lower power, thus using less gas.

 

[otherclive]

At least my microbore is copper soldered😉
I assume that as the battery is 5.8kWh it's a SolaX system you have, is it really easy to add a Fogstar as the battery voltages are very different. My 3 battery SolaX is 350V a single one is 117V how does this fit with Fogstar?

As you may recall I have just had fitted a new boiler with weather comp, hence my playing with the way it works. One thing I will say for those with combi gas boilers is turn the flow temperature down. Yes the rads don't feel as hot but they do heat the room and the boiler runs more efficiently and at lower power, thus using less gas.

Already do turn down boiler temperature once house is up to temperature, but only when there’s an external difference such as cold weather. At present it’s running very efficiently as it hasn’t even come on today apart from a quick boost to heat water for showers.

 

[Dustydog]

I'm sorry Dusty but you have succumbed to the misunderstanding which has arisen around heat pumps. The type and construction of a building does not reduce the efficiency of a heat pump, in exactly the same way they would not affect the efficiency of a gas boiler or electric radiator. They type of building affects how well any heat put into the building is retained and how effective that heat is, but it does not affect the the efficiency of the appliance itself.

Steady on Prof , I didn’t say that.

AHPs are a valid efficient heating system .. yes I said that.

but only when applied to a specific construction of building. Again yes but nowhere did I say “reduce the efficiency of a heat pump”.

Even with your tender years You know full well most on here know the building itself plays a big part no matter how efficient the AHP may be.
Please let’s not spoil the Season getting into semantics and pedantics 🤪

 

[ProfJohnL]

I think you are consistently reading HP as just the equipment itself. As myself, Dusty, JTQ, Gumpy, JC and others have indicated it’s the total system installation, which includes the house, that should determine the viability and efficiency of a heat pump installation. I think by now everyone is well aware that as a single piece of equipment a heat pump is more efficient than a gas boiler, your shed analogy explained that. But I venture to suggest that few if any existing houses built before 2000 could just swop a boiler for heat pump without substantial expense and disruption. If they did so, there’s a significant risk that the HP system would fail to meet expectations.

This is exactly why I am pointing out the difference between "efficiency" and "effectiveness" which are so often misused and consequently add to the general confusion, and the perception that "heat pumps" are believed to be only "efficient" when a building has been designed with one in mind thus implying unless the building has been designed with a heat pump in mind using a heat pump as such is inefficient, but how efficient a heat pump is not affected by the type of building!

There can be a cost impact of changing to a heat pump from other types of heating systems, and that depends on what type of system is already installed, if you were installing a whole building heating system from scratch the cost of a wet heat pump solution would would be similar to a fresh install of a gas system, and that would also apply if changing from electric storage heaters, toa wet system.

The issue is that whilst gas heating and heat pump heating looks similar, it is sufficiently different to make changing from gas to heat pump needing extensive changes to maximise effectiveness.

And there may well be some cases where for some practical reason the unique needs of a heat pump installation cannot be met, but the same can be said of any system, it's not unique to heat pumps.

But in general if you have a gas boiler the system and it can be replaced with a heat pump, the cost of replacement is what is causing legitimate concern. But that does not mean the heat pump would be inefficient.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I think you are consistently reading HP as just the equipment itself. As myself, Dusty, JTQ, Gumpy, JC and others have indicated it’s the total system installation, which includes the house, that should determine the viability and efficiency of a heat pump installation. I think by now everyone is well aware that as a single piece of equipment a heat pump is more efficient than a gas boiler, your shed analogy explained that. But I venture to suggest that few if any existing houses built before 2000 could just swop a boiler for heat pump without substantial expense and disruption. If they did so, there’s a significant risk that the HP system would fail to meet expectations.

That is correct, and I do so because its important to differentiate between efficiency and effectiveness.

The problem is that in some well publicised cases a heat pump has been installed into a property, and it has not performed as well as the owner has wished, and the owner has condemned the "Heat Pump" as being inefficient. That becomes the headline, and is what much of the general public take in and interpret as some on here have done so that the principle of heat pumps is inefficient, and that is a major obstacle to getting the message about heat pumps correctly understood.

In some of the cases it's usually the specification of the heat pump and its associated equipment which has been incompetently selected or installed, or the user does not know how to use the equipment that#s actually the problem, yet its invariably the innocent heat pump that gets blamed. All these then unfavourably colour the general perception against heat pumps when the heat pump is not the actual issue.

 

[otherclive]

At the risk of being accused of Fred Drift I wonder when we may see heat pumps in UK caravans or motorhomes. given that even budget EVs such as the new Suzuki E Vitara are fitted with heat pumps it may only be short time until leisure vehicles have them as options for those who use EHU.

 

[Oscarmax]

At the risk of being accused of Fred Drift I wonder when we may see heat pumps in UK caravans or motorhomes. given that even budget EVs such as the new Suzuki E Vitara are fitted with heat pumps it may only be short time until leisure vehicles have them as options for those who use EHU.

Our Suzuki Across is fitted with a heat pump, it uses the heating fluid from the vehicle batteries

 

[JTQ]

At the risk of being accused of Fred Drift I wonder when we may see heat pumps in UK caravans or motorhomes. given that even budget EVs such as the new Suzuki E Vitara are fitted with heat pumps it may only be short time until leisure vehicles have them as options for those who use EHU.

If realised via AHP technology I can envisage a potential noise pollution issue looming, given the close packing of for example CMC pitches. Bad enough now if a motorhome has an Eberspaecher diesel fuel heater as we have experienced on a CL with way greater pitch separation than found on pucka sites.

Resolvable or mitigated a bit if they leave two or three unoccupied pitches between units, though it could hit their revenue stream.
Then they could mandate any space heating use on site is 100% via the EHU rather than a unit's AHP.

 

[Buckman]

I wonder how many of the "experts" have heat pumps installed in their homes?

 

[otherclive]

I wonder how many of the "experts" have heat pumps installed in their homes?

To be an “expert” in a technology, or subject you do not need to own a system. After all many homes are just not suitable for heat pump installation without significant cost and disruption..

 

[Buckman]

To be an “expert” in a technology, or subject you do not need to own a system. After all many homes are just not suitable for heat pump installation without significant cost and disruption..

So the "expert" would have no practical knowledge on using it in a home or even various homes and only going by what they have read and tried to understand?

 

[otherclive]

So the "expert" would have no practical knowledge on using it in a home or even various homes and only going by what they have read and tried to understand?

That’s not what I said, you are putting words in to my mouth.

 

[Oscarmax]

So the "expert" would have no practical knowledge on using it in a home or even various homes and only going by what they have read and tried to understand?

Do you mean an experience expert, there is a lot of difference between theory than actual practise.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I wonder how many of the "experts" have heat pumps installed in their homes?

Why do you need to be an "expert" to hold a valid opinion about Heat Pumps?

 

[JTQ]

Dare I say, it has been owners being far from experts in the stuff they own that has frequently filled my coffers.

 

[Buckman]

Why do you need to be an "expert" to hold a valid opinion about Heat Pumps?

At long last you are admitting you are not an expert on heat pumps. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[otherclive]

At long last you are admitting you are not an expert on heat pumps. Thanks for the clarification.

I think that someone with a career as a professional engineer is able to hold valid views on heat pumps, and other areas of technology that have been studied.

After only 2-3,days the thread is back to personal digs. Should “ green” issues be banned?

 

[Sam Vimes]

This is supposed to be the season of Good Will to everyone. Please let's keep our posts in this spirit now and all year round rather than making sarcastic comments at times of disagreement.

 

[Buckman]

This is supposed to be the season of Good Will to everyone. Please let's keep our posts in this spirit now and all year round rather than making sarcastic comments at times of disagreement.

I never started it. LOL! 😂🤣

 

[Sam Vimes]

Oh yes you did, oh no I didn't.... he's behind you. Etc.....😀😀😀

 

[Buckman]

Our 1988 house has a gas central heating and hot water system using a hot water vented tank combined with a large mains fed header tank in the loft to “pressurise” and distribute the hot water. The Worcester Bosch condensing boiler and associated hot water tank are 11 years old. There are two aspects of the system that we don’t like. One is the two header tanks in the loft, and the other is a monsoon pump system to feed the en-suite shower. The en-suite was installed by the previous owners. So we began by looking at the possibility of replacing the vented hot water tank with an unvented pressurised one which would allow loft tanks to be drained and isolated, and would allow the monsoon pump to the en-suite shower to be got rid of. Then at some stage a new boiler would replace the existing one. It wasn’t to be as the airing cupboard would be too small for anything larger than a 90-110 litre unvented tank. Then a 22 mm mains feed would be required from the kitchen to the new tank. That’s when issue two cropped up, as the mains feed to the house is only 15 mm, so routing a 22mm pipe from kitchen to airing cupboard would still not provide adequate pressure and flow for a three bathroom house. The other option to get rid of the loft tanks would be a Combi boiler which would still be subject to output fluctuations when parallel services were being used, and still require a monsoon pump to the en-suite. At £7k+ not on your life.

So our son suggested why not consider a heat pump system, with the government grant of £7500 the overall cost can be on a par with a new boiler and tank installation.. Once my wife had reconciled herself to absolutely no gas in the house as part of any grant financed installation I had some interesting discussions with EDF, EON and OCTOPUS. Based on the survey that we had carried out for the new boiler/tank options it seems the airing cupboard is too small for the HP hot water and buffer tanks. It would need extending in to my office/ spare bedroom. Plus all said that they could not accept a 15 mm mains supply from the meter, and a new 22mm minimum supply would be required. So no point in getting a new EPC, or testing ceilings and soffits for asbestos, or lifting patio or drive to look for water pipe runs it’s not going to happen.

I now know why our elderly neighbours decided only to go for a boiler replacement around two years ago when they wanted a HP system. Guess we will continue with gas for as long as we live in the house and let our successors decide how to deal with it in years to come.

I wonder which "expert" asked the question if they already knew the answer? 🤣 🤣 🤣

 

[otherclive]

I wonder which "expert" asked the question if they already knew the answer? 🤣 🤣 🤣

Why on Earth have you decided to go back 297 posts. It makes absolutely no sense, contributes nothing to the thread and seems deliberately aimed to either insult, or create conflict in the Forum.

 

[Dustydog]

Drifting slightly we do have an expert and he sits in Westminster as our strategic main Energy Minister. He says a lot of things and must be an expert to hold such an important position😜