Guidance on my calculations for a new tow car

[norledgeispower]

Hi All

A real newbie to this but have been reading the mag articles with great interest, my situation is I have to change my car as its a company lease and we don't yet own a caravan. We have a 9 month old and so liked the idea of a bunk bed with rear wash room like the Adria Altea Tamar. So here is my rational on car / caravan...

Said caravan has a MTPLM of 1300

I am thinking of the Nissan Qashqai 360 AVM 2wd 1.6 130bhp diesel which has a Kerb weight of 1498 / 1566 and a max trailer weight of 1400
So by my reckoning that computes to a 85% capable weight of 1273 which is just 27kg short if you take the lower kerb weight, unless I missed something ...

Reason for getting the Qashqai is that on our lease scheme its very good value, not too bad on tax will be fully maintained and has all the toys one could wish to shake the preverbeale stick at. And as per the articles taking into account that most of the time it won't be a tow car.

All thoughts on this matter greatly received to see if i have got this right......

J

 

[otherclive]

By your calcs that looks fine as even at the lower kerbweight you are virtually at 85%. New van weighst can vary by as much as 5% but there is not much anyone can do about that as you wont know until you get one. But also car's often weigh a bit more that the makers kerbweight. Do Nissan include the driver as part of the kerbweight (75kg) if they dont this works well in your favour. Overall it looks a good weight match and the car's max trailer weight at 1400kg is above the vans MTPLM of 1300kg. One thing you might check is that now Nissan and Renault are joined at the hip, Renault used to have a bizzare method of calculating outfit weights were each kilogram of load placed in the car (above kerbweight) had to be deducted from the trailer weight!! Might be worth checking this hasnt been carried over to Nissan Qashqai.
If you go for this outfit I would take it to a weighbridge so you start off knowing exactly where you are. The CC/C&CC courses are excellent value and really do give a lot of helpful information
Otherwise good look and many years of happy vanning..

 

[Surfer]

The 85% is only a guideline so you will have no issues if you exceed it by a couple of kgs especially if towing with a Qashqai. Your biggest issue may be lack of any oomph when going up hills. You may be better off getting an Antara which cna tow up to 1700kgs which will give you more choice in caravans.

 

[otherclive]

One of our previous outfits was a Mondeo (2000MY) towing a 1300kg van. The Mondeo only developed around 100 bhp and we happily toured UK and France. Certainly it didn't go like our Saab 9000 turbo or the current XC70 outfits but by anticipating road conditions and use of the gearbox it was a good combination which I had no problem keeping up with the traffic flow, and 60 mph on motorways was no problem. The Nissan 1.6 cdi with 130bhp is a cracking motor and should make a fine tug. Our last outfit a + 2 tonne auto Sorento towing 1400kg with 138hp at its disposal didn't lead me towards an Antara!

 

[ProfJohnL]

I think Clive has covered the choices quite well. But I do recommend that you check out the Nissan,s (I cant spell Qashqai!) weights carefully.

On the vehicle you will find a data plate that contains the limits for the cars gross weight, the outfits train weight, and the front and rear axle loads.

Take the GTW (the largest value) and subtract the GVW (next largest value) if the result is less than the specification Max Braked trailer weight then you may have problem.

What it means is that you can only tow the biggest caravan allowed when the car is essentially empty. You obviously have some latitude as the caravan is under the cars limit, but you must be careful. You must not exceed the GTW.

 

[gyp]

Hi ,
I tow with a 1.6 Turbo Diesel Qashqai. My caravan is an Elddis odyssey 432 with an MPTLM of 1275 kg.
I achieve 35MPG towing and 55+ not towing. The power /torque of this 1.6 motor compares with the 2.2diesel in the Mk1 X Trail.
I have no lack of power towing and normally tow ay my preferred 60MPH and easily increase to 70MPH if needed. The car is a very able tower and non tow car comparing more than favourably with the Mondeo.

Gyp

 

[gyp]

Duplicate Post

 

[norledgeispower]

Hi Gyp,

Thanks thats just the sort of answer I needed, I thought it should be quite capabable as allot of smaller engines are more around the 100bhp mark. And the +2 will give me that extra load space for what seems to be the whole of mothercare we carry around now before caravaning.

Just waiting on a test drive, we get to have a 3 day test drive organised through the lease company.

J

 

[norledgeispower]

OK so i am now even more confused, I found the following article on this website and it states the 85% match was not legal... Anyone care to explain ?

http://www.practicalcaravan.com/review/towcar/nissan-qashqai-20-dci-tekna

Kerbweight: 1665kg*
85% match: NOT LEGAL
Max towing weight: 1400kg

Andh the van being towed was 1310.

Anyone able to clear this up ?

J

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

OK so i am now even more confused, I found the following article on this website and it states the 85% match was not legal... Anyone care to explain ?
Kerbweight: 1665kg*
85% match: NOT LEGAL
Max towing weight: 1400kg

85% of 1665 = 1415kg. 1415 is greater than than the permissible maximum weight of 1400, and is therefore illegal to tow at 85%.

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

OK so i am now even more confused, I found the following article on this website and it states the 85% match was not legal... Anyone care to explain ?
Kerbweight: 1665kg*
85% match: NOT LEGAL
Max towing weight: 1400kg

85% of 1665 = 1415kg. 1415 is greater than than the permissible maximum weight of 1400, and is therefore illegal to tow at 85%.

hi, Sir WC, is correct, however one must read carefully the data sheets and understand them!! the max tow load is 1400kg this does not mean the the max MTPLM as the noseweight is CARRIED by the car and not towed, so the the max MTPLM of any trailer could in fact be upto 1475kg but as the as your van is 1275kg this is not an issue but must be understood.
PS, note for gyp, please dont admit to speeding on the forum, 70mph, with a van on!!! tut tut, it's not very PC and I can see the fingers wagging from here,

 

[norledgeispower]

OK you guys you confuse me more now...

In the article I refer to they are towing a van that is 1310kg , in my book that is only 93% of the maximum tow weight of the Qashqai or 98% including the weight on the tow ball, sureley its not illegal but just not advised ?

And surely it just means your limited to caravans up to 1400kg on the Qashqai?

 

[ProfJohnL]

......I have no lack of power towing and normally tow ay my preferred 60MPH and easily increase to 70MPH if needed.......

Gyp

Please give an example of when towing a caravan in the UK ever needs to be more than 60mph yet alone 70 mph?

 

[SteveW77]

......I have no lack of power towing and normally tow ay my preferred 60MPH and easily increase to 70MPH if needed.......

Gyp

Please give an example of when towing a caravan in the UK ever needs to be more than 60mph yet alone 70 mph?

As far as I can see there is no evidence that Gyp has exceeded the limit in this country, he may well have been talking about another country and another time before the laws on the continent were changed.

Steve W

 

[gyp]

Thats correct , not in UK.
Am very surprised at the number of outfits that pass me on the motorways of UK , when I am at 60mph, at estimated speeds in excess
of 70mph.
Best of luck with your Test Drive !

 

[otherclive]

Fisrtly the 85% is for guidance only its not anything to do with the law. The limiting factors are as in Proj Johns post above. They are Gross Vehicle Weight, Gross Train Weight, and vehicle makers max tow load. With the car fully loaded at GVW and van hitched up you should not exceed the vehicle GTW.

 

[ProfJohnL]

OK you guys you confuse me more now...

In the article I refer to they are towing a van that is 1310kg , in my book that is only 93% of the maximum tow weight of the Qashqai or 98% including the weight on the tow ball, sureley its not illegal but just not advised ?

And surely it just means your limited to caravans up to 1400kg on the Qashqai?

Hi norledgeispower,

Based on the figures you give:-

Kerbweight: 1665kg*
85% match: NOT LEGAL
Max towing weight: 1400kg

The 85% recommendation is conventionally based on the kerbweight of the tow vehicle, BUT it is always subserviant to the tow vehicles specification for towed weights which is taken as a legal limit.

Quite simply if you take 85% of the kerbweight
(1665 x 0.85) = 1415.25 which is 15.25Kg over the cars stated tow limit, hence a trailer that matched at 85% would be illegal. However 1400/1665 = 0.84 or 84% which would be legal, so you can see its just below 85%.

So in essence what you say is correct, the car is limited to a trailed weight of 1400Kg

However the 1400kg is the "trailed" or "towed" or "axle" weight, and is not the total weight of the trailer. The total weight of any trailer is the axle load plus the nose load, but as the nose load is carried by the car its not part of the towed weight.

 

[norledgeispower]

OK so this is slowly sinking in, then I go look at a different car which displays its weights in a different manor...

So I look at the A3 150bhp 5dr and the following data is in the brochure....

Unlaidened weight 1310
Gross weight 1870
nose weight, kg 75
Max trailer load with 12% gradient, kg 1600
Max trailer load with 8% gradient, kg 1800

So from this could I deduce that lets say working on the 85% guidance I could tow a van of 1530kg subject to knowing the max train wight ?

Or ............? Wouldn't it be nice if car makers stuck to a standard way of displaying data.

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

OK so this is slowly sinking in, then I go look at a different car which displays its weights in a different manor...

So I look at the A3 150bhp 5dr and the following data is in the brochure....

Unlaidened weight 1310
Gross weight 1870
nose weight, kg 75
Max trailer load with 12% gradient, kg 1600
Max trailer load with 8% gradient, kg 1800

So from this could I deduce that lets say working on the 85% guidance I could tow a van of 1530kg subject to knowing the max train wight ?

Or ............? Wouldn't it be nice if car makers stuck to a standard way of displaying data.

I think you are still a little confused. If you want to go by the recommendation of 85% then you need to take 85% of roughly the unladen weight (depending on what the definition includes). I think you have taken approx 85% of the Gross Weight. The gross weight is exactly that, ie car plus fuel plus 5 people plus luggage plus, if towing, towball weight.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello norledgeispower,

I'm sorry but you have not understood the way the towing ratio is calculated.

I wish matching cars and caravans were simpler, but taking the time to get it right now will pay dividends in the future.

The convention for calculating the towing ratio is to take the MTPLM of the proposed trailer and divide it by the tow vehicles Kerbweight. then multiply by 100 to get it into percent

This method is chosen as it is a consistent approach and represents is the worst possible scenario, as the car is at its lightest and the trailer at its heaviest. In reality the actual ratio will always be better than the conventional calculation (provided neither of the outfits individual limits are exceeded), but as most of don't have access to the necessary means to measure the car and caravan weights accurately, establishing the actual ratio each journey is nigh on impossible.

So the calculated value is a bit of a fudge, but its value is more of a guide than an absolute, but it does allow you to make some sort of comparison between alternative cars and caravans.

Kerbweight is not an official figure so its sometimes difficult to find in the published literature or on line, you may have to use the Mass In running Order or Mass in Service figures or even the Unladen Mass. Yes these will affect the value of the calculated ratio, but it will only be a few percent.

85% is not a requirement, it is only guidance, and as it does not take into account the manufacturers technical specifications which must always be observed. (Caution, there are some cars that are not approved to tow as much as 85%). Don't feel 85% has to be the holy grail: a few percent over is not likely to cause a catastrophic problem. 85% offers no guarantees of safety. The overriding advice I give is always to keep the caravan as light weight as possible.

Towing ratio is a factor for Safe towing, but in my view its not the most significant Good safe towing is achieved by careful loading, maintaining both the car and the caravan in tip top condition, and driving carefully.

 

[norledgeispower]

Hi Thanks for the reply,

So are we saying that in the data from Audi

Unlaidened weight 1310
Gross weight 1870
nose weight, kg 75
Max trailer load with 12% gradient, kg 1600
Max trailer load with 8% gradient, kg 1800

My best calculation is to use 1310 as a nearest to a kerb wright I will find, and so would be looking at a van of MTPLM at worst 1310 @ 100% and a best as in nearer the industry guides of 85% of 1113kg ? So in reality a van of around 1150 / 1200 is probably realistic with that car. I think its back to looking at Passats then.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hi norledgeispower
You obviously seem to know what yoiu are looking for, so good luck.
At least you now have a better understanding of how to check the weights.

 

[norledgeispower]

Thanks Prof John, It really is a mine field esp when its not just a car you need to change but a van you don't even own yet or utimately have decided on !

Cheers.