headlights in france

[Lutz]

Unless one has further details of their requirements, it's difficult to make a comment. For example, it's not clear whether what they measured in the area of the 'kick up' is a minimum or a maximum requirement or even whether it is required or permissble, like in Germany. Perhaps someone can dig out the equivalent French Construction & Use Requirements pertaining to headlamps.

 

[NickinFrance]

As I said, to pass a French CT the beam pattern must fall within 2 parallel lines, both the flat & the kick-up sections on the test machine, outside those lines & the computer generates a fail.

Also, it doesn't really matter what the French Con & Use regs say, if the Chief Technician in a department says something, that's what is applied throughout that department.

 

[Guest]

Many EU supplied vehicles have vertically dipping lights, so thye do not need adjusting for driving in the UK.

As I mentioned if our stupid Government would allow us the same facility then we would have no problem with driving anywhere. Of course the motor manufacturers also go along with it, because it enables them to 'restrict' car sales in Europe for import to the UK, where they can charge more. Yes, if you have an EU car then you can legally drive in the UK as a 'tourist' but if you import it then it has to be fitted with left dipping lights. For some reason it seems that the new exenon lights can be used anywheer as fitted, so maybe things are looking up (pun)

 

[Lutz]

Yes, but you don't say where these parallel lines are and what the requirements are between the parallel lines, and for that matter, if there are any requirements outside them. The Chief Technician must still be able to say according to which standards or regulations he is measuring light intensity. Otherwise, different standards would apply depending on which Chief Technician you happen to confront.

 

[Gafferbill]

I am sure that the UK does not permit dazzle, and why should that not apply to foreign registered vehicles, too? Whether visiting motorists take the requirement seriously is another matter.

What do you do when you visit the UK assuming you bring over a LHD vehicle?

 

[Lutz]

Many EU supplied vehicles have vertically dipping lights, so thye do not need adjusting for driving in the UK.

As I mentioned if our stupid Government would allow us the same facility then we would have no problem with driving anywhere. Of course the motor manufacturers also go along with it, because it enables them to 'restrict' car sales in Europe for import to the UK, where they can charge more. Yes, if you have an EU car then you can legally drive in the UK as a 'tourist' but if you import it then it has to be fitted with left dipping lights. For some reason it seems that the new exenon lights can be used anywheer as fitted, so maybe things are looking up (pun)

Xenon light can not be used anywhere without adjustment, as you suggest. The problem is that none of the proprietary headlamp beam modifiers (tape, benders, etc.) may be used with xenon lights because they can either cause overheating of the headlamp unit or they cause too much scatter. In case of xenon lights, the only option is to get the dealer to 'tweak' the adjustment of the complete headlamp unit to target the beam a bit further to the right.

 

[Guest]

You can buy Xenon bulbs which are apparently legal for use in both UK and Europe as fitted.

As my car does not have them, I cannot vouch the truth in this, but it is openly advertised.

 

[NickinFrance]

Lutz,

If someone can tell me how to insert an image into a posting, I can give you a diagram.

" Otherwise, different standards would apply depending on which Chief Technician you happen to confront"

Yes, one truth in France is 'if you don't like an official decision, keep asking until you get the answer you want'.

To bring this back to caravans, I had no trouble registering my Swift caravan with the document pack I bought from Swift but I know people in other departments who have been unable to register their caravan with the same document pack.

 

[Lutz]

If it is just a matter of just replacing the bulbs, then one cannot be referring to xenon headlamps. True xenon headlights are a completely different system and need about 300 volts to get them started so it is almost impossible to retrofit them. Maybe you are referring to bulbs emitting the same colour of light as xenon lights. These are legal but their beam pattern is determined by the existing headlamp lens, not by the bulb.

 

[Lutz]

We have the same problem here in Germany, too, Nick. It is sometimes possible to get a car through the T

 

[Guest]

Doing some browsing for various car makes it appears that xenon lights do not have any manual adjustment device. The only way to change them is to use a computer, which is usually a dealer option,and is a 'pain' especially as you have to get them reset on return. However, again from browsing, it appears most dealers never actually do this and no complaints are received. Some makers do supply designed beam benders, but whether these are effective or not is not clear.

When I lived in Holland, and had to get new light units for my old Ford, I did ask why the Dutch never used masking tape when they came to the UK. Ah, I was informed that was because all our lights dip vertically and so we do not have to change them. Great for them, I thought, so why do we have to put up with this s..t?

 

[Lutz]

I agree with both of your statements, Scotch Lad. True xenon headlamps are 'high tech' pieces of equipment requiing high tension igniters, for example, and there is no way that the owner can fiddle around with them to obtain a different beam pattern. In fact, under German law, they must be designed in such a way that it is not possible to tamper with the units and cars with xenon headlamps MUST have automatic headlamp beam height adjusters.

Your comment about headlights in Holland being symmetrical ties in with what I know about the situation here in Germany. That's why I'm so curious about getting more details of Nick's experience with the French inspectors.

 

[NickinFrance]

If it is just a matter of just replacing the bulbs, then one cannot be referring to xenon headlamps. True xenon headlights are a completely different system and need about 300 volts to get them started so it is almost impossible to retrofit them. Maybe you are referring to bulbs emitting the same colour of light as xenon lights. These are legal but their beam pattern is determined by the existing headlamp lens, not by the bulb.

Also, as I'm sure you know, Xenon-HID or Bi-Xenon headlights can only be fitted to cars with automatic self-leveling headlight systems & headlight washers.

High voltage Xenon headlamp kits are available to fit any car but strictly they are illegal because of the above.

 

[Sproket]

Nick

Follow this link on how to post photos

 

[Sproket]

Lutz,

If someone can tell me how to insert an image into a posting, I can give you a diagram.

" Otherwise, different standards would apply depending on which Chief Technician you happen to confront"

Yes, one truth in France is 'if you don't like an official decision, keep asking until you get the answer you want'.

To bring this back to caravans, I had no trouble registering my Swift caravan with the document pack I bought from Swift but I know people in other departments who have been unable to register their caravan with the same document pack.

follow this link how to post photos

 

[NickinFrance]

Nick

Follow this link on how to post photos

Thanks Sprocket, I have my own server that I would prefer to put the image on that rather than open a photobucket account, I'll have a go anyway.

 

[NickinFrance]

Lutz,

Sorry, I think I am confusing you with terms, DRIRE is what was the 'Ministry of Transport' was in the UK but is run on a department (county) by department (county) basis & the DRIRE in each department seems to be autonomous.

The Chief Engineer there is known as the Chief Technician, what he or she says goes in their department (county).

One can appeal the decision of a CT testing station to DRIRE, which, because I knew the Chief Technician from the caravan & an imported car, I did, she tested the lights at their workshop & confirmed the CT stations fail.

I have put an image of the lines on the test machine screen, if the beam pattern falls outside the red lines, it's a fail, my light pattern is represented by the blue line.

http://www.bandb-in-brittany.co.uk/images/headlights.jpg

 

[Lutz]

I get what you mean, Nick, but what do the upper and lower red lines respresent and how far apart are they? Surely they don't mean that no light may stray outside the boundaries described by these two lines. And what do the red lines represent if the beam pattern extends beyond them, because surely nobody expects the light to be cut off at zero exactly along the red line. What does the dotted line half way between the two represent and at what height is it? Some sort of light intensity must be defined either side of the boundary lines or else they would serve no purpose (either a minimum or a maximum or tolerance band). In fact, it seems weird that there is a lower red line at all, because I can't see what purpose it would serve? And where does the 'kick up' start (at the centreline of the right hand headlamp perhaps?) and at what angle is the 'kick up'?

Although I appreciate that you have done your best, I think you'll understand that your sketch throws up even more unanswered questions than before.

 

[Gafferbill]

.....nice B&B Nick!

 

[Chrisbee]

The image posted by Nick is similar to the UK beam tester although the UK one also has a "hot spot" indicator and dotted vertical lines. Obviously the kick up is on the left. To pass the MOT in the UK the top of the beam pattern must lay between the red lines, ideally on the dotted line. This also applies to the kick up. There is no limit to the horizontal length of the beam or the bottom of the light spread. The lower red line is to ensure the lamps are not set too low, therefor making it imposible to see a safe distance ahead when using dipped beam. The distance between the lines is about 2cm but is set by the manufacture according to VOSA stipulations.It sounds like it's the same in France

 

[NickinFrance]

Hi Lutz,

The upper red line is the limit of any light, any light or scatter above that & it's a fail.

The dotted line is the optimum cut-off line & is at the centre height of the light units.

The bottom red line is to measure the kick-up, it the kick-up doesn't go into the area above that line, it's a fail, which is what happened to me, it is also the lower limit of the top of the beam (if the beam is set too low)

The angle is about 30 deg & is about a two thirds of the way along the length.

Light intensity is measured electronically both for the area the beam is on & the area above to measure the scatter.

 

[Lutz]

I still can't see the point of the bottom red line. Who would suffer if light scatters below it? It wouldn't dazzle anybody so why specify a bottom limit? The way that you describe the red lines makes it sound that they are purely arbitrary according to the whim of the tester and I find that hard to believe, even in France. There must be some figures that accompany the requiremnts. Who says, for example, that the kick up has to be 30

 

[Lutz]

ps: I presume that the test described covers only the dipped beam, but there must also be photometric requirements for the main beam, too.

 

[Lutz]

I have just found an EU Directive (76/761/EEC, later amended by 89/517/EEC) which refers to a permissible kick-up of 15

 

[NickinFrance]

As Chrisbee & I said the bottom line is the line that the top of the beam pattern must not be below.

The 30deg was my guess.

" Who says whether the red lines are 1, 2 or 5 metres apart or how far away from the headlights this target is placed?"

The beam tester/setter is mounted on rails & is a set distance from the headlight, I guess as specified in the documents the CT station need to work to.

Only the dipped beam is tested.

"how come the French make an exception?"

Because it's France

"Theoretically, I can buy a car in Belgium and register it in France and the French cannot withhold approval."

Want to put money on that statement

One of the (many) pieces of paper needed to register a vehicle in France is a Certificate of Conformity, in French, issued by the manufacturer or their agent in France & with some manufacturers charging up to 300 _ for this, it's a nice little 'earner' for them.

We moved over with a Nissan Terrano that had been first registered & used in Japan (known as an 'Import' in the UK) & even though the vehicle had been registered in the UK & had a EU Type Approval number in the UK registration document, because that particular model had never been officially imported into France had to go through a series of tests by various agencies, a process that took over 18 months.