Heart attack time for Greta!

[Buckman]

Germany bringing mothballed coal plants back to market this winter to keep the lights on when demand peaks. Greta is going to want to send Olaf Scholz to the naughty chair.

To be clear, I am a supporter of clean energy. I just think realism is called for. They can postulate on all they like about targets for 2030 or whenever, but failure to reach unattainable targets will set the clean energy movement back rather than promote it.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-to-operate-in-winter?leadSource=uverify wall

 

[otherclive]

Germany bringing mothballed coal plants back to market this winter to keep the lights on when demand peaks. Greta is going to want to send Olaf Scholz to the naughty chair.

To be clear, I am a supporter of clean energy. I just think realism is called for. They can postulate on all they like about targets for 2030 or whenever, but failure to reach unattainable targets will set the clean energy movement back rather than promote it.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-10-04/germany-orders-three-old-lignite-plants-to-operate-in-winter?leadSource=uverify wall

Haven’t we done the same with our remaining coal plant, by delaying its close down date? What about Drax too? The German initiative is to have the plants on standby so no telling how much they will be used. Just like ours.
At the moment coal is providing 1%?of our energy.

 

[Mr Plodd]

UK has destroyed (rather than mothballed) most coal fired power stations, so if we get a cold winter we (as a nation) are going to be reliant on the interconnections from France/Norway etc.
Me? I have some standby lighting solutions (12v batteries and a couple of LED srip lights) in case of power outages, along with a gas fire in my lounge and a gas cooker in the kitchen..

 

[otherclive]

We only have one coal power station and that is now due to close in 2024 after having a minor reprieve.

We have gas CH, gas fire, two electric heaters and always keep LED lanterns charged which can also act as power packs. Torches always kept in easily accessed spots. I have two camping stoves with ample gas cylinders and if it really gets bad there are candles and tea lights which can be lit by matches or a gas lighter. Both cars have a head torch and conventional torch. The cadac and charcoal BBQs could be used to raise morale 😂

 

[RogerL]

We only have one coal power station and that is now due to close in 2024 after having a minor reprieve.

We have gas CH, gas fire, two electric heaters and always keep LED lanterns charged which can also act as power packs. Torches always kept in easily accessed spots. I have two camping stoves with ample gas cylinders and if it really gets bad there are candles and tea lights which can be lit by matches or a gas lighter. Both cars have a head torch and conventional torch. The cadac and charcoal BBQs could be used to raise morale 😂

The one remaining coal-fired power station, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, is relatively clean with Flue Gas Desulphuration and Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR), the latter being the same as Adblue for cars but on a much bigger scale. When we drove past about 10 days ago they must have had all 4 boilers going as all 8 cooling towers were producing huge amounts of steam - but yesterday it wasn't running at all - they have huge stocks of coal, more than I've ever seen there.

 

[otherclive]

The one remaining coal-fired power station, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, is relatively clean with Flue Gas Desulphuration and Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR), the latter being the same as Adblue for cars but on a much bigger scale. When we drove past about 10 days ago they must have had all 4 boilers going as all 8 cooling towers were producing huge amounts of steam - but yesterday it wasn't running at all - they have huge stocks of coal, more than I've ever seen there.

In the latter year’s British coal fired stations were clean but they still produce copious amounts of carbon dioxide and its that pollutant that needs to be reduced. The Drax biomass power station is developing a carbon capture system, but how successful this will be remains to be seen. Burying carbon dioxide must have finite limits. The real answer must be renewable energy, usage reduction, supplemented if required by fission or even fusion.

 

[RogerL]

In the latter year’s British coal fired stations were clean but they still produce copious amounts of carbon dioxide and its that pollutant that needs to be reduced. The Drax biomass power station is developing a carbon capture system, but how successful this will be remains to be seen. Burying carbon dioxide must have finite limits. The real answer must be renewable energy, usage reduction, supplemented if required by fission or even fusion.

My own solution would be to keep building nuclear power stations, it's the least harmful solution IMO - but that would take several decades if they started now.

 

[Mr Plodd]

In the latter year’s British coal fired stations were clean but they still produce copious amounts of carbon dioxide and its that pollutant that needs to be reduced. The Drax biomass power station is developing a carbon capture system, but how successful this will be remains to be seen. Burying carbon dioxide must have finite limits. The real answer must be renewable energy, usage reduction, supplemented if required by fission or even fusion.

But that's all in the distant future, if we have a cold winter this year, and the continent has the same then the UK cannot generate sufficient electricity for its home market because there is no sizable backup due to the destruction, rather than mothballing, of all but one coal fired power station.
Net Zero and madness spring to mind.

 

[otherclive]

My own solution would be to keep building nuclear power stations, it's the least harmful solution IMO - but that would take several decades if they started now.

Perhaps with the money saved on HS2 we could publicly fund Sizewell C😱

 

[otherclive]

But that's all in the distant future, if we have a cold winter this year, and the continent has the same then the UK cannot generate sufficient electricity for its home market because there is no sizable backup due to the destruction, rather than mothballing, of all but one coal fired power station.
Net Zero and madness spring to mind.

Not to my mind. Energy rationing is a feasible option to peak lop until the system gets sufficient energy sources,( renewable, carbon neutral, fossil or nuclear), to meet demand.

 

[Lutz]

In Germany it was a toss up whether coal or nuclear power plants. In the end they decided on coal. The nuclear power plants have all been shut down in the meantime so they are not available as a back up any more.

 

[ProfJohnL]

The reopening of coal fired power stations is a backward step, but its actually reflects how well the removal of dirty coal powered generation of the power grids has been over the last decade or so in many parts of Europe and the UK. The need has largely been forced on Europe becasue of the cut back in use of Russian sourced energy.

If nothing else Mr Putin's activity is making most European countries find alternatives to Russian Gas, and that is boosting the development of renewable generation, but as is well understood you can't build any form of grid level generation over night so there will be times when older methods have to be used until newer cleaner generation can be turned on to carry the load.

In the UK (and some other countries) our reliance on fossil fueled generation has fallen massively over the last couple of decades, and and continues to diminish, but for several decades moving forward, we will still need some means of guaranteeing a base load, and its likely to consist of nuclear, storage systems (such as vehicle to load and large scale grid storage) and possibly gas powered systems with gas sourced from UK owned gas fields.

 

[Buckman]

We have the gas heater, gas camping stove, gas BBQ and two gas lanterns just in case we have another Armageddon type winter like '62-63 or even 2018. We always have enough food in the house for at least two weeks as we are in a rural area. Seems the net zero target is a pipe dream as it will never happen now or at any time in the future.

 

[otherclive]

We have the gas heater, gas camping stove, gas BBQ and two gas lanterns just in case we have another Armageddon type winter like '62-63 or even 2018. We always have enough food in the house for at least two weeks as we are in a rural area. Seems the net zero target is a pipe dream as it will never happen now or at any time in the future.

What evidence do you have that Net Zero will never be achieved?

 

[Buckman]

What evidence do you have that Net Zero will never be achieved?

I could also ask what evidence do you have that it will be achieved? An impossible pipe dream made impossible by nature itself!

 

[otherclive]

I could also ask what evidence do you have that it will be achieved? An impossible pipe dream made impossible by nature itself!

For 800000 years nature has managed the natural cyclic changes in the carbon dioxide level very well. Then mankind started to upset the balance from the start of the Industrial Revolution.

But we are never going to agree so I am “ Out” and off to de-Spaniel the cars interior. 😀

 

[ProfJohnL]

Just becasue (edit)some believe we might not hit the target, does not mean should stop trying. We must not go back to all the dubious processes that have added so many Billions of tons of pollutants to our environment.

Net zero is an idealistic target, and as such it may never be 100% achieved, but it's easy to understand and it drives the principle of reducing emissions which in itself is a good thing. We have the understanding and the technologies to be able to reduce our bad habits.

As long as we do reduce our dependance on burning fossil fuels and other highly polluting processes to achieve significant reductions it can only help our environment now and for our descendants.

 

[Buckman]

We will never hit the target of net zero as after all what is "zero". Zero has to be something even if it is nothing?

 

[Raywood]

I would agree with the Prof here. I do think we have to find a level between reality and doing the best we can to reduce carbon emissions. The problem is that we have built a system that will take some time to change and our contribution is minimal so the effect of our endeavours is not going to make a real difference. It needs everybody else to do their bit as well particularly the likes of China and the USA and for countries like Brazil to stop destroying the rain forests.

 

[Buckman]

Nothing wrong with doing our best to reduce emissions, but then China is approving new coal power projects at the equivalent of two plants every week and there is nothing we can do to prevent those emissions from reaching our shores hence net zero is a pipe dream even if the UK were to reduce its emissions and pay the penalty.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/29/china-coal-plants-climate-goals-carbon

 

[ProfJohnL]

Nothing wrong with doing our best to reduce emissions, but then China is approving new coal power projects at the equivalent of two plants every week and there is nothing we can do to prevent those emissions from reaching our shores hence net zero is a pipe dream even if the UK were to reduce its emissions and pay the penalty.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/29/china-coal-plants-climate-goals-carbon

Why is it a penalty to reduce emissions?

The penalty is if we do nothing!

The rhetoric that suggests we do nothing until everyone else starts to tow the line is the rhetoric of hopelessness and failure.

We can and have made a difference, and there is more we can do without breaking the bank, rather than investing in the same old dirty processes, use that money to invest in new cleaner processes.

By smaller countries showing how they can deploy cleaner technologies. larger or less developed countries can see it is possible to reduce emissions.

Whilst China may be opening new coal fired power stations, it also happens that China is probably further ahead with their emission reduction processes than many Western countries. Burning coal in power stations is far from ideal but its still cleaner than extracting oil, refining it and then burning it and its derivatives in internal combustion engines.

Look beyond the headlines!

 

[Buckman]

I am a realist so we will suffer penalties in this headlong rush to net zero as proved by the current conflict on the continent which is probably causing havoc with any net zero ambitions.

Seems fairly obvious that a minority have not quite grasped or understood the contents of my first post.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I am a realist so we will suffer penalties in this headlong rush to net zero as proved by the current conflict on the continent which is probably causing havoc with any net zero ambitions.

The conflict in Ukraine has highlighted how much western europe had been relying on imported energy. Ironically the countries that have already made significant progress in moving towards net zero by investing in renewables' power generation have suffered less than the countries that have dragged their feet.

Whilst the conflict has forced the cost of energy up everywhere due to the commercial way it costed, here in the UK and several other countries, we have not suffered the shortages that less well prepared countries have, becasue we already have a significant base of renewable power generation. Having better control of national power generation should help to stabilise both energy supply and costs in the future.

That's a major one major benefits of the diversification into renewables it reduces dependence on imported energy sources. That is not a penalty.

 

[Buckman]

Not sure why Germany is reverting back to coal fired power stations and mothballing many of its supposedly clean nuclear power stations. Why China is approving at least two coal stations a week instead of nuclear?

Even the UK which is supposed to be ahead with moving towards net zero suffered badly. I would be interested to know which countries in the EU that had invested in renewables never suffered as a result of the conflict and higher prices?

There is no way renewables on their own can cope with the demand during the summer periods never mind the winters and that is a major penalty.

 

[Lutz]

Germany bringing mothballed coal plants back to market this winter to keep the lights on when demand peaks. Greta is going to want to send Olaf Scholz to the naughty chair.

The nuclear power plants haven’t been mothballed. They are being dismantled. It was a decision taken following the Fukushima incident and the fact that that Germany has no facilities for the safe disposal of spent radioactive waste.