Heat pumps

[Buckman]

As the life of a heat pump is not infinite and they may last about 20 years, what does one do when it comes to replacement as 20 years ago they were probably under £10,000, but now probably closer to £20000! I am aware that the government offers a grant of about £7500, but what if the grants is withdrawn within the few years? To pay £20k for a replacement would be out of the question for many people especially if you are a pensioner. The proverbial is going to hit the fan in the next 10 years!

 

[otherclive]

You say “probably £20k”. How do you know what a replacement for your would cost without having a quote. As more are fitted, and makers ramp up output why shouldn’t they be like other domestic appliances whose real price has reduced. True there are grants available through approved installers, but if the recent withdrawal of environmental grants to farmers is anything to go by there’s every chance the heat pump grant could be tapered off. But when grants for solar panels were withdrawn the industry said it would lead to large job losses and increased installation costs. Cries of pain all around. In fact the reverse was true as grants had been subsidising higher prices.

 

[JTQ]

Inflation here in the UK alone over the last 20 years would result in £10,000 being £17, 400 today. It will be anybody's guess where it will have reached in another 20 years?
And of course heat pumps like much else will track their own course, but being technical I suspect they will fare better than the average.
Not quite sure why here they are singled out for concern, our food and energy might be more of concern?

Personally, what anything may or may not costs in 20 years, is not one of our life's worries, as said how things are going to pan out individually or collectively is an unknown, and it will be a miracle if I am here to ever find out.

What spares and keeping gas & oil heating systems going over those 20 years, let alone their replacement cost, after "gentle" cost pressure from successive governments, now that could be eye watering

 

[Buckman]

You say “probably £20k”. How do you know what a replacement for your would cost without having a quote. As more are fitted, and makers ramp up output why shouldn’t they be like other domestic appliances whose real price has reduced. True there are grants available through approved installers, but if the recent withdrawal of environmental grants to farmers is anything to go by there’s every chance the heat pump grant could be tapered off. But when grants for solar panels were withdrawn the industry said it would lead to large job losses and increased installation costs. Cries of pain all around. In fact the reverse was true as grants had been subsidising higher prices.

The price will obviously increase and not lower. Not sure why you think it will ever be a volume production? I have seen the cost of cars reduce?

Probably less and less solar panels are being installed consumers due to costs and again we have the issue of the lifespan of a solar panel. Our neighbour used to install them has given up installing them as demand was low after the initial take up.

 

[JTQ]

Not sure why you think it will ever be a volume production? I

Probably because, presently there seems no option, unless we do a "Trump" here and decide what happens to this planet after us is nothing to be concerned about, our children's and their's problem?

 

[otherclive]

The price will obviously increase and not lower. Not sure why you think it will ever be a volume production? I have seen the cost of cars reduce?

Probably less and less solar panels are being installed consumers due to costs and again we have the issue of the lifespan of a solar panel. Our neighbour used to install them has given up installing them as demand was low after the initial take up.

But as JTQ has said in 20 years the real cost as not gone up by much. Your installation costs have been borne already. So a replacement heat pump will effectively be a 1 for 1 swop. If you need new radiators or pipework etc that’s just as likely to be required for a gas fired heating system.
As more and more heat pumps are being installed with so many properties requiring to be converted the real costs are likely to reduce. Just like cookers, freezers, washing machines are now cheaper in real terms than 20 years ago. Some are possibly cheaper in actual price too.

I will probably just update ours and our daughters by replacing the boilers and patiently wait until electric prices are divorced from gas and go back to all electric direct heating which we had fitted to our first house in 1973. No pumps, no leaks, no flues, minimal maintenance and excellent controls

 

[Dustydog]

Our first hand experience two years ago at sisters rented Norfolk barn proved heat pumps are not the Messiah of domestic heating. It struggled over two days in the autumn to raise the temperature from 15 to 17 degs, C .The hot water never exceeded 50 degs C.

The owner lent her three fan heaters and said use the immersion heater for water.

However new builds utilising thermally efficient walls windows etc now come with heat pumps as standard. Gas / oil boilers are not allowed.

However with the ever changing political arena it is not beyond doubt a future Government may invoke the Civil Contingencies Act and allow the reinstatement of new gas / oil boilers, and more North Sea oil /gas drilling. 🙀Ducks as the cat’s among the pigeons 😉

And here’s the wild card.
Son’s new domestic electricity storage plant. 2x5kw storage batteries , inverter , cabling and roof solar panels. The Jury’s out on the break even point. Probably some years but it goes with having a Volvo Recharge.

 

[GUMPY]

House batteries are a wonderful thing.
I am at present dumping the contents of mine onto the grid. In preparation for the negative electricity prices overnight tonight and tomorrow morning when I will recharge them. Tomorrow will be spent exporting the solar generated on my roof🫣
At a rough guess they will pay me £5.25 for export and £0.75 for import. I will see how much I can get the import figure up by using immersion, dishwasher etc.

 

[otherclive]

Our first hand experience two years ago at sisters rented Norfolk barn proved heat pumps are not the Messiah of domestic heating. It struggled over two days in the autumn to raise the temperature from 15 to 17 degs, C .The hot water never exceeded 50 degs C.

The owner lent her three fan heaters and said use the immersion heater for water.

However new builds utilising thermally efficient walls windows etc now come with heat pumps as standard. Gas / oil boilers are not allowed.

However with the ever changing political arena it is not beyond doubt a future Government may invoke the Civil Contingencies Act and allow the reinstatement of new gas / oil boilers, and more North Sea oil /gas drilling. 🙀Ducks as the cat’s among the pigeons 😉

And here’s the wild card.
Son’s new domestic electricity storage plant. 2x5kw storage batteries , inverter , cabling and roof solar panels. The Jury’s out on the break even point. Probably some years but it goes with having a Volvo Recharge.

View attachment 8524

Our grandsons new build that he bought in November 2023 has a gas boiler. But currently it is still possible to have a gas boiler in a new build providing solar PV and waste water heat recovery are incorporated. But a properly designed heat pump system in a well insulated house would be a better option, as gas boiler sytems are increasingly complex.

FAQs – Can I install a gas boiler in new builds still? - UK Building Compliance

FAQs - Can I install a gas boiler in new builds still?

www.ukbuildingcompliance.co.uk

 

[Hutch]

From what my friends have said who installed Air source heat pumps , in older build houses, and you want to keep your rooms at 22c, forget them. They just don't do it.
Replace your old gas boiler for a new one.

I replaced our old (42 year old) cast iron one, for a new one (£1800) last year, relocated, total cost £5700. But guarantee on boiler 10 years
By then I will probably be through the council incinerator. Who knows, I might even be able to claim benefits, which at 73 years old ,now, I can' claim anything. .

 

[RogerL]

Governments, of any colour, largely ignore long term issues

Our grandsons new build that he bought in November 2023 has a gas boiler. But currently it is still possible to have a gas boiler in a new build providing solar PV and waste water heat recovery are incorporated. But a properly designed heat pump system in a well insulated house would be a better option, as gas boiler sytems are increasingly complex.

FAQs – Can I install a gas boiler in new builds still? - UK Building Compliance

FAQs - Can I install a gas boiler in new builds still?

www.ukbuildingcompliance.co.uk

I wonder why new builds don't use ground source heat pumps, much better than air source - would be easy fit the underground pipes while the foundations are being done

 

[Hutch]

Cost for Underground piping, best type is vertically down, retro is horizontal,less than Metre deep.

 

[ProfJohnL]

The price will obviously increase and not lower. Not sure why you think it will ever be a volume production? I have seen the cost of cars reduce?

Probably less and less solar panels are being installed consumers due to costs and again we have the issue of the lifespan of a solar panel. Our neighbour used to install them has given up installing them as demand was low after the initial take up.

Its strange that When I Google UK Solar Uptake, I only find positive growth in Solar PV uptake as seen here.
It may not be startlingly fast but it is increasing.

 

[Buckman]

But as JTQ has said in 20 years the real cost as not gone up by much. Your installation costs have been borne already. So a replacement heat pump will effectively be a 1 for 1 swop. If you need new radiators or pipework etc that’s just as likely to be required for a gas fired heating system.
As more and more heat pumps are being installed with so many properties requiring to be converted the real costs are likely to reduce. Just like cookers, freezers, washing machines are now cheaper in real terms than 20 years ago. Some are possibly cheaper in actual price too.

I will probably just update ours and our daughters by replacing the boilers and patiently wait until electric prices are divorced from gas and go back to all electric direct heating which we had fitted to our first house in 1973. No pumps, no leaks, no flues, minimal maintenance and excellent controls

It took the installers nearly 5=6 years to get ours working reasonably well during the summer. Secondly in cold weather it really struggles and our electric consumption goes through the roof.

On many mornings in the winter it has basically been one large lump of ice as even the "defrost" cycle cannot cope with really cold weather. If we could, we would have gas heating in the blink of an eye. At least that is efficient!

It is still cheaper in the long run to use gas than a heat pump and I am talking from actual experience and not hearsay or what was heard in a pub from a friend of an uncles distant cousin!.

 

[otherclive]

It took the installers nearly 5=6 years to get ours working reasonably well during the summer. Secondly in cold weather it really struggles and our electric consumption goes through the roof.

On many mornings in the winter it has basically been one large lump of ice as even the "defrost" cycle cannot cope with really cold weather. If we could, we would have gas heating in the blink of an eye. At least that is efficient!

It is still cheaper in the long run to use gas than a heat pump and I am talking from actual experience and not hearsay or what was heard in a pub from a friend of an uncles distant cousin!.

Do you not think that there is a fundamental problem within the total system, including the house, if it took 5-6 years to get it working reasonably well in summer?

 

[Buckman]

Do you not think that there is a fundamental problem within the total system, including the house, if it took 5-6 years to get it working reasonably well in summer?

Guess you will need to ask the installers?

 

[Dustydog]

Do you not think that there is a fundamental problem within the total system, including the house, if it took 5-6 years to get it working reasonably well in summer?

A couple in our Town installed a heat pump into their 45 year old home. It cost £18k. Fortunately she kept their gas central heating system. Thus they can still stay warm in the winter.

Heat pumps imo cannot be viewed stand alone. They are part of an integrated system which includes the building fabric. Retrofits and substitution for gas boilers doesn’t work.
Her last job was Sustainabilty Manager at the Local Authority🙀

 

[otherclive]

A couple in our Town installed a heat pump into their 45 year old home. It cost £18k. Fortunately she kept their gas central heating system. Thus they can still stay warm in the winter.

Heat pumps imo cannot be viewed stand alone. They are part of an integrated system which includes the building fabric. Retrofits and substitution for gas boilers doesn’t work.
Her last job was Sustainabilty Manager at the Local Authority🙀

Why do we seem to have problems with ASHP retrofit when it’s been standard. practice in Norway for years? For older less well insulated buildings there’s the option of High Temperature Air Source Heat Pumps. Could it be that some parts of our fledgling installation industry aren’t competent to advise install?

Why has Norway succeeded with air source heat pumps - PHS

In the Nordic countries, where the winters are notoriously harsh and long, the air source heat pump has firmly established itself as the heating technology of

phscom.co.uk

High-Temperature Air Source Heat Pumps – A Good or Bad idea?

A heat pump is a way of using electricity to heat your home, in energy efficient way. Unlike an electric panel heater, a heat pump has a compressor, which increases the amount of heat that can be generated from each unit of electricity. For a panel heater, that ratio is 1:1. For most heat pumps...

nef.org.uk

 

[Buckman]

In summer all it needs to do is heat the hot water. At first we could not understand why we ran out of hot water by lunch time. I then discovered that they had said the hot water heating for between 12am and 3am at which time the heating shut down as you cannot have heating and hot water at the same time. I set the hot water time to 4am to 5am and no more hot water issues.

In the winter if we have a power break which can last hours we have no heating, I can promise you that this is not very pleasant, but luckily it does not happen often.

 

[Buckman]

Why do we seem to have problems with ASHP retrofit when it’s been standard. practice in Norway for years? For older less well insulated buildings there’s the option of High Temperature Air Source Heat Pumps. Could it be that some parts of our fledgling installation industry aren’t competent to advise install?

Why has Norway succeeded with air source heat pumps - PHS

In the Nordic countries, where the winters are notoriously harsh and long, the air source heat pump has firmly established itself as the heating technology of

phscom.co.uk

High-Temperature Air Source Heat Pumps – A Good or Bad idea?

A heat pump is a way of using electricity to heat your home, in energy efficient way. Unlike an electric panel heater, a heat pump has a compressor, which increases the amount of heat that can be generated from each unit of electricity. For a panel heater, that ratio is 1:1. For most heat pumps...

nef.org.uk

Isn't electric a lot cheaper in Norway than the UK making a heat pump a worthwhile investment Perhaps they also spend money to modernise their national grid making it more reliable than the UK?

 

[GUMPY]

Could it be that some parts of our fledgling installation industry aren’t competent to advise install?

This is the problem.
Most are a bunch of incompetents
Many say "yes you can just fit HP instead of gas boiler" which in a large percentage of cases you can't.
I'm still looking for a local installer that can tell me the required modifications* to my gas system that I know will need to be done, so far none have.

* Mainly pipework changes.

 

[RogerL]

In the winter if we have a power break which can last hours we have no heating, I can promise you that this is not very pleasant, but luckily it does not happen often.

That also happens with most gas-fired central heating - no electric then no pump or control circuits - fortunately we have a stand-alone gas fire in the lounge, in addition to the gas-fired central heating.

 

[JTQ]

That also happens with most gas-fired central heating - no electric then no pump or control circuits - fortunately we have a stand-alone gas fire in the lounge, in addition to the gas-fired central heating.

Two of my 12 vDC batteries in series powers my 1979 gas boiler, but not the circulation pump. With a dated boiler, it in our kitchen diner its "wild heat" keeps us adequately warm through power cuts.
When I worked I took the two batteries with me and left them charging, when ever it was needed. Been off power on two occasions for 10 day stints.
Fortunately now deemed a "priority" customer so hopefully those days are passed.

With a heat pump based system I suspect power cuts not even prolonged ones would, test my ingenuity too far.

 

[otherclive]

Isn't electric a lot cheaper in Norway than the UK making a heat pump a worthwhile investment Perhaps they also spend money to modernise their national grid making it more reliable than the UK?

But irrespective of the cost of electricity the home owner or business still wants to feel warm and comfortable. Grid reliability isn’t an issue because if power goes down a gas boiler heating system will not function either.

 

[RogerL]

Two of my 12 vDC batteries in series powers my 1979 gas boiler, but not the circulation pump. With a dated boiler, it in our kitchen diner its "wild heat" keeps us adequately warm through power cuts.
When I worked I took the two batteries with me and left them charging, when ever it was needed. Been off power on two occasions for 10 day stints.
Fortunately now deemed a "priority" customer so hopefully those days are passed.

With a heat pump based system I suspect power cuts not even prolonged ones would, test my ingenuity too far.

Our plan B during a power cut is to move into the caravan - it's parked on the drive with leisure battery fully charged and at least one full gas cylinder.

I've often wondered how energy companies protect "priority customers" from power cuts - which seem to affect everything supplied by the sub-station.