Heating a home?

[otherclive]

All an RF thermostat will do is turn on or off the pump depending on its setting and location. If using TRV’s. Only those rads that the TRV’s happen to have open will respond, so might even be in a different room. Room stats, fixed or otherwise, work against TRV’s.
But we don’t yet know if the OP has a system using TRV’s. It’s just an assumption.

John

If you read my earlier post I described how I use such a system so I know how they interact.

But it’s not that difficult if Buckman has a TRVs in the lounge to increase the TRV setting in the lounge such that the thermostat if for example were set at 21.5 deg C it would bring the room to that temperature. The TRVs would not close off as they were set for example at maximum. Then all that’s required before going to bed would be to relocate thermostat in the hall and wind back down the TRVs. Buckman has a particular problem so perhaps a less than conventional approach might help. TRV. settings aren’t set in stone although many people never touch them from one year to the next. But if they had an electric fire they would be quite au fait with adjusting a thermostat setting on the fire to meet their needs.
The advantage of a remote RF thermostat is that it’s relative cheap, and doesn’t require access via a wifi router which some people aren’t comfortable with.
Me I’m happy with my Hive controller and standard TRVs

 

[Jcloughie]

Sorry Clive, your just quite wrong on most of that.

It is correct that the TRV's would have to be set to max (or high) in the room with the RF thermostat. But if you are prepared to continually adjust the TRV's according to there use, which works very well, then what's the point of the RF stat.

Not preaching. But just so you are aware, I have construction HNC's plus was a curriculum manager for construction, engineering and building services for many years. It is also a subject I have taught at quite a high level (5). My thoughts are not from ignorance.

John

 

[otherclive]

Sorry Clive, your just quite wrong on most of that.

It is correct that the TRV's would have to be set to max (or high) in the room with the RF thermostat. But if you are prepared to continually adjust the TRV's according to there use, which works very well, then what's the point of the RF stat.

Not preaching. But just so you are aware, I have construction HNC's plus was a curriculum manager for construction, engineering and building services for many years. It is also a subject I have taught at quite a high level (5). My thoughts are not from ignorance.

John

Thank you for editing your post to reflect my approach, which did say was unconventional to possibly align with Buckmans position.

 

[Buckman]

We can adjust the radiators and at the moment all are on the highest setting to heat the home throughout.
Good suggestion about moving the remote controller into the living room in the evening and then back when we go to bed. That way when the remote is in the living room, boosting temperature up to 21-22C and turning down the control on the radiator in the bedroom to about halfway. At least that way the bedroom is slightly warm in the morning when we get up
Also turning down or off the radiator in the other bedroom as it is mainly the ironing room. Warmth from hallway will "leak" into that bedroom.
Thank you all for some very good tips and suggestions.

 

[otherclive]

We can adjust the radiators and at the moment all are on the highest setting to heat the home throughout.
Good suggestion about moving the remote controller into the living room in the evening and then back when we go to bed. That way when the remote is in the living room, boosting temperature up to 21-22C and turning down the control on the radiator in the bedroom to about halfway. At least that way the bedroom is slightly warm in the morning when we get up
Also turning down or off the radiator in the other bedroom as it is mainly the ironing room. Warmth from hallway will "leak" into that bedroom.
Thank you all for some very good tips and suggestions.

Let us know how you get on with your “HVAC” experiments.

 

[Jcloughie]

We can adjust the radiators and at the moment all are on the highest setting to heat the home throughout.
Good suggestion about moving the remote controller into the living room in the evening and then back when we go to bed. That way when the remote is in the living room, boosting temperature up to 21-22C and turning down the control on the radiator in the bedroom to about halfway. At least that way the bedroom is slightly warm in the morning when we get up
Also turning down or off the radiator in the other bedroom as it is mainly the ironing room. Warmth from hallway will "leak" into that bedroom.
Thank you all for some very good tips and suggestions.

Bit confused with that Ian. If all your rads are turned up full and you are only achieving the temperatures you mentioned. Remembering it is still mild weather. Then it shows to me that either the heat pump is insufficient for the job. Or, that it is regulated too low.

You seem to infer that you have standard valves and not TRV’s. If so then what you suggest will work, all be it cumbersome. Particularly as standard valve are difficult to finely adjust. However, if you do have TRV’s or choose to have them fitted, then, as I said before. The solution has zero benefits. Just let the TRV’s do what they are designed to do.

From what you have described thus far, I would guess that your system was put in as balanced one. If TRV’s are added then you need to fully understand how remote room stats can fight against the TRV operation.

Therefore I suggest you ask the advice from the original installer. If you do have standard valves, then they may well have done the original adjustment using the lock shield valve. (The rad valve that needs a spanner).

John

 

[Buckman]

The remote control is set to 20C and the home achieves 20C so no issue there however it is a bit cool and I wanted to increase the temperature while keeping costs with in check. The last time I increased the temperature by 2C overall, costs increased phenomenally.
I was just looking for tips to keep heating costs within reason. Turning down the thermo in the bedrooms, increasing temp to 21.5C for a short period towards evening time will probably be the answer. I am presently trying it in preparation for much cooler weather.

 

[ProfJohnL]

The remote control is set to 20C and the home achieves 20C so no issue there however it is a bit cool and I wanted to increase the temperature while keeping costs with in check. The last time I increased the temperature by 2C overall, costs increased phenomenally.
I was just looking for tips to keep heating costs within reason. Turning down the thermo in the bedrooms, increasing temp to 21.5C for a short period towards evening time will probably be the answer. I am presently trying it in preparation for much cooler weather.

Unfortunately you cannot get more heat without cost. Heat is energy which costs. The only way to increased temperature for the same heat input is to reduce wasted heat elsewhere in the system leaving more for where you want it, and/or by increasing insulation. Fact of life i'm afraid.

As Jcloughie has just pointed out and a point I made earlier, if your system does not get you home warm enough, then it is under specified for your needs, and if you had it installed that is something you should take up with your supplier.

 

[otherclive]

Unfortunately you cannot get more heat without cost. Heat is energy which costs. The only way to increased temperature for the same heat input is to reduce wasted heat elsewhere in the system leaving more for where you want it, and/or by increasing insulation. Fact of life i'm afraid.

As Jcloughie has just pointed out and a point I made earlier, if your system does not get you home warm enough, then it is under specified for your needs, and if you had it installed that is something you should take up with your supplier.

I still fail to see how if the lounge TRVs , which Buckman may not have, were set at Max how on earth they would fight a remote thermostat set at the desired comfort temperature of 21.5 deg c. It would be the remote thermostat that would be controlling Buckmans lounge. At Max setting for example a TRV by Drayton would be at trying to attain 30 deg C and so allowing the free flow of hot water into the lounge radiator. No fighting there. Now if the system isn’t suitably sized to warm up the lounge in the current temperate conditions then that’s a different ball game. I did explain that my approach was not conventional but was a suggestion to help Buckman get a warmer lounge, albeit as I said slightly cooler in other areas of the house. But if the lounge is fitted with lock shields then it isn’t so easy to open them up and increase the flow through the radiator.

 

[Jcloughie]

I still fail to see how if the lounge TRVs , which Buckman may not have, were set at Max how on earth they would fight a remote thermostat set at the desired comfort temperature of 21.5 deg c. It would be the remote thermostat that would be controlling Buckmans lounge. At Max setting for example a TRV by Drayton would be at trying to attain 30 deg C and so allowing the free flow of hot water into the lounge radiator. No fighting there. Now if the system isn’t suitably sized to warm up the lounge in the current temperate conditions then that’s a different ball game. I did explain that my approach was not conventional but was a suggestion to help Buckman get a warmer lounge, albeit as I said slightly cooler in other areas of the house. But if the lounge is fitted with lock shields then it isn’t so easy to open them up and increase the flow through the radiator.

The answer is simple Clive. With smart rad stats, they can turn the pump and therefore the boiler on, and do so individually.

TRV’s cannot do that. It therefore follows that in order to react, the pump must be on constantly, (or at least as much as the programmer allows). But the room stat overrides this and turns the pump off when it ‘thinks’ that it has achieved the set temperature in whatever location it is.

Therefore. If a TRV can call for heat for ever, but if the pump has been turned of by a room stat. Hard luck.

John

 

[ProfJohnL]

I am adding this comment to show that whilst I understand JCL's position, with a well installed and managed system mixing technologies can work.

My own system is principally gas powered condensing boiler, I have TRVs on all but the bathroom radiator which provides the base load on the system. I have timer controlled thermostats upstairs and downstairs that control zone valves for and a separate timer and zone valve for hot water cylinder.

Summer time I rely on Economy 7 for hot water, Winter time the bulk is gas heated.

Each thermostat has divided the day into four time periods. Each period s start and end time can adjusted and set to a different temperature so for example upstairs is set to only 16C during daytime and night time but comes on to a 21C for only an hour or so when we get up and go to bed.

Downstairs also has a similar arrangement: 20C for breakfast 19C for daytime 20C for evening 16C night time.

From time to time we can boost the zone if we are not warm enough. On this point my wife is largely sedentary for health reasons, and she like the room to be a couple of degrees warmer. During winter I run a single 1.7KWh economy 7 storage radiator in the room, which lifts the temperature just enough, but during even cooler periods she uses a small electric blanket and a cat on her knees.

Having tuned this system I made savings of about 30% on my gas heating costs, and my Gas supplier tells me i'm using only about 80% of the gas that similar properties with similar occupancy would use.

Having worked extensively in the heating industry I may have a better feel for how to set these dynamic systems up, and my system does not fight between TRVs and thermostats, their actions compliment each other, Even when we have overnight visitors and increase the TRV settings in spare rooms, the system does not get into a paradox situation.

So whilst I do acknowledge a poorly designed system could end up with the TRV's fighting other controls, a well designed and balanced system is capable running successfully and efficiently.

Presently I consider my energy bills to be manageable, but should I need to tighten my belt, I estimate I could make a further 10% saving, by shortening some of the active periods, but that would mean changing other habits, and presently I (and my wife) are happy and warm enough with the arrangements we have.

 

[Jcloughie]

Wow, that’s sounds complex Prof. I am not advocating a smart system as I think it will take too long to make them cost effective. But they do achieve the infinitely fine programming of each individual room and all from the comfort of your arm chair.

Reading this topic I have concluded we are nesh in our house. Evenings see the living room is set at 23.5.

Presumably Prof, you leave the pump running in your case.

Some years ago you could buy automatic smart pumps. Evidently they somehow (I can only imagine they kept going at a trickle and measured the input temperature), without communication to the rooms, they adjusted the flow depending on the need. I have not heard of them recently, they may not have been successful.

There are many schools of thought on this, but 4 years ago we had an old fashioned conventional system controlled by a programmer and TRV’s. In bad weather I would set the programmer, therefore the pump, to constant for weeks on end. It allowed me to turn the TRV’s down a bit, but kept heat in the fabric of the house. Not sure if this worked out as a cheap option, but it was nice and cosy.


John

 

[otherclive]

The answer is simple Clive. With smart rad stats, they can turn the pump and therefore the boiler on, and do so individually.

TRV’s cannot do that. It therefore follows that in order to react, the pump must be on constantly, (or at least as much as the programmer allows). But the room stat overrides this and turns the pump off when it ‘thinks’ that it has achieved the set temperature in whatever location it is.

Therefore. If a TRV can call for heat for ever, but if the pump has been turned of by a room stat. Hard luck.

John

Sorry but I never said anything about smart TRVs it’s you that introduced that concept as they are fitted in your system.

Edit
Smart TRVs are still a minority installation so my comments re Buckmans needs reflected his thoughts that it should be simple and not too costly.

This summer we replaced 11 of our 12 radiators and I did look at smart TRVs but concluded that the cost per rad was around £37 extra. £407 for the system compared to a high quality Drayton or Honeywell. Even greater if I had gone for a less expensive type of those brands. I concluded that it was approaching 60% of our annual gas bill which includes water, cooking and a lounge fire. So the potential energy savings didn’t seem to offer any meaningful cost benefits.

 

[Jcloughie]

Sorry but I never said anything about smart TRVs it’s you that introduced that concept as they are fitted in your system.

Clive, I never suggested that you did. I was merely pointing out the difference in this respect in order to provide a full answer for you. But, more importantly, did you follow the reasons that room stats conflict with TRV’s. (Note, not smart valves).

John

PS, someone local is selling two new Hive valves for £90, might be open to further discounts if postage is involved. pm if you are interested.

 

[otherclive]

Clive, I never suggested that you did. I was merely pointing out the difference in this respect in order to provide a full answer for you. But, more importantly, did you follow the reasons that room stats conflict with TRV’s. (Note, not smart valves).

John

PS, someone local is selling two new Hive valves for £90, might be open to further discounts if postage is involved. pm if you are interested.

Thanks for the details of the Hive valves but I’m not going to bin 11 new Drayton TRVs for smart rad valves as the overall cost benefit isn’t convincing to me. I’ve yet to see a paper with an objective comparison of any energy savings versus costs and life expectancy of the valves. But thank you for the info.

 

[Jcloughie]

Thanks for the details of the Hive valves but I’m not going to bin 11 new Drayton TRVs for smart rad valves as the overall cost benefit isn’t convincing to me. I’ve yet to see a paper with an objective comparison of any energy savings versus costs and life expectancy of the valves. But thank you for the info.

I agree, and have already said. I am not convinced these systems are likely to be cost effective. I have mine for connivance, and as I am a bit of a new tech nut and because I got a very good deal when Maplin were closing.

It still cost me around £300 for a 6 valve system. And they eat batteries.

By the way, you dont bin the TRV’s completely, just the head. Mine are held in reserve.

John

 

[ProfJohnL]

Wow, that’s sounds complex Prof. ...

I don't consider it to be complex, I'ts basically a three zone thermostat driven system, into which TRV's have been added.

Presumably Prof, you leave the pump running in your case.

No the pump is controlled by the boiler just as if its a thermostat demand. I have just balanced the system and by a bit of HVAC engineering know how (and luck) it works very well for us.

My present boiler has a modulating gas valve, which more accurately matches the heat input to the input output/ water temperature difference, Certainly my observations of its its performance suggests this is the case. This helps to maximimise the efficiency of the boiler, and adapts to any change in the circulation rate due to TRV's and zone valves, etc.

Still this is drifting of topic so I wont pursue this further in this thread.

 

[otherclive]

I agree, and have already said. I am not convinced these systems are likely to be cost effective. I have mine for connivance, and as I am a bit of a new tech nut and because I got a very good deal when Maplin were closing.

It still cost me around £300 for a 6 valve system. And they eat batteries.

By the way, you dont bin the TRV’s completely, just the head. Mine are held in reserve.

John

Thanks again. I was aware that smart heads could replace the TRV head as I had looked at smart TRVs prior to deciding to stay “ conventional”.

 

[Buckman]

We tried out the suggestions offered and it seem to work quite well. Set remote to 21.5C for hours between 4-6pm and it warmed up lounge nicely. This morning although thermo control turned down in main bedroom, never noticed any difference. I do expect an increase in our bill, but now being a lot wiser thanks to suggestions, it will not be as high as last year when we had the remote control set at 21.5C all day.

 

[Beachball]

if you are feeling the cold it better to do the suggestions that are offered . We have a bungalow and 4 year old combi boiler and raditors our central heating was only on 30 mins before bedtime yesterday and we hardly have the heating on the electric fire 1kw in the lounge gets more use .

 

[otherclive]

We tried out the suggestions offered and it seem to work quite well. Set remote to 21.5C for hours between 4-6pm and it warmed up lounge nicely. This morning although thermo control turned down in main bedroom, never noticed any difference. I do expect an increase in our bill, but now being a lot wiser thanks to suggestions, it will not be as high as last year when we had the remote control set at 21.5C all day.

That’s good news. Thanks for update

 

[Jcloughie]

Further to this post I have remembered that I have 5 programable TRV's which are sat, doing nothing.

These are NOT Smart ones. They have no control of the boiler or the pump and are secondary to the main programmer. They work like a standard TRV but they can be individually programmed for time and temperature thus fine tuning a system. They might be the same or similar to what the Prof described earlier.

They are new and unused, but old technology so I am happy to give them away for the cost of postage. Say £6.00

pm if interested.





John

 

[ProfJohnL]

Thank you JCL.

That is closer to what I had in mind, The system I have seen (but not installed) uses wax motor very much like TRV's but it has a small ceramic heating pad inside. When a low voltage supply is attached the disk warms up, the wax motor expands and turns the flow to the radiator off. The element can be wired and controlled from a central panel, or from individual thermostats/time switches in the room or zone.

The advantage of them being the temperature sensor can be placed near where you want the heat, rather than next to the radiator where it will obviously be affected by the temperature of the radiator. This is of course the same problem TRV's can suffer from, and why they don't claim any great accuracy for any temperature markings they put on the casings.