Hello.....newbie after advice

[alibabaxx]

Hi everyone, new to all this caravanning stuff. In fact a complete novice. :blink:

Wanting to buy our first tourer but need to get head round weights and what we can tow etc...

Now.. we have a 1.6 Qashqai +2 diesel 2013, 2WD. I believe the kerb weight is 1498 min and 1568 max. The towing weight is 1400kg. I believe it is 85% of the kerb weight for the right van?

We are looking for a 4/6 berth (pref very light!!) used van.

Can anyone tell me what I need please and confirm weights that would be ok to pull without too much problem???

Thank you

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

As you already own the car then have a look at your registration certificate (V5c) to find its kerb weight (shown as Mass In Service). The max trailer weight should also be shown on the certificate. Max trailer weight is also available from the weight plates on the car (door pillar or engine bay) by taking the difference between number 1 and 2.

Please come back to us when you have these figures.

Edit - what is the power of your car?

 

[Parksy]

Hi and welcome to the forum.
Click Here to read Practical Caravans article which contains advice regarding weights etc

 

[emowbray]

Unauthorised advertising removed.

 

[alibabaxx]

kerb weight is 1711. max trailer weight is 1400. power is 1598cc

Confused now as the book states kerbweight is 1498 min 1566 max but the mass in service number is 1711?
Thought these were the same thing?

 

[alibabaxx]

As you already own the car then have a look at your registration certificate (V5c) to find its kerb weight (shown as Mass In Service). The max trailer weight should also be shown on the certificate. Max trailer weight is also available from the weight plates on the car (door pillar or engine bay) by taking the difference between number 1 and 2.

Please come back to us when you have these figures.

Edit - what is the power of your car?

kerb weight is 1711. max trailer weight is 1400. power is 1598cc

Confused now as the book states kerbweight is 1498 min 1566 max but the mass in service number is 1711?
Thought these were the same thing?

 

[ProfJohnL]

kerb weight is 1711. max trailer weight is 1400. power is 1598cc

Confused now as the book states kerbweight is 1498 min 1566 max but the mass in service number is 1711?
Thought these were the same thing?

Welcome to the confusing world of vehicle weights (& masses) and weight limits.

Please forgive me if I am wrong , but I suspect from your correspondence so far you are trying to work out what caravan to consider using the 85% industry guidance.

The 85% is only guidance, It's the result of the UK caravan industry recognising the fact that caravans are a far from an ideal trailer, and thus suggesting its wise to keep the car's weight greater than the trailer when towing. Exactly how the industry came up with the 85% figure has been the subject of many debates without resolution. What is clear the 85% is not exact and does not take into account the car manufactures specifications, and it in no way guarantees that using 85% will produce a legal or safe match.

Rather than composing a very long message about weights, I have recently come across this web page

http://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/helpandadvice/technicalhelp/towing/matching-car-and-caravan/
from the Caravan and Camping club about weights. I found it to be quite accurate and informative. I suggest you read it.

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

Good reference, Prof.

 

[alibabaxx]

kerb weight is 1711. max trailer weight is 1400. power is 1598cc

Confused now as the book states kerbweight is 1498 min 1566 max but the mass in service number is 1711?
Thought these were the same thing?

Welcome to the confusing world of vehicle weights (& masses) and weight limits.

Please forgive me if I am wrong , but I suspect from your correspondence so far you are trying to work out what caravan to consider using the 85% industry guidance.

The 85% is only guidance, It's the result of the UK caravan industry recognising the fact that caravans are a far from an ideal trailer, and thus suggesting its wise to keep the car's weight greater than the trailer when towing. Exactly how the industry came up with the 85% figure has been the subject of many debates without resolution. What is clear the 85% is not exact and does not take into account the car manufactures specifications, and it in no way guarantees that using 85% will produce a legal or safe match.

Rather than composing a very long message about weights, I have recently come across this web page

http://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/helpandadvice/technicalhelp/towing/matching-car-and-caravan/
from the Caravan and Camping club about weights. I found it to be quite accurate and informative. I suggest you read it.

Yes I am thank you but can't seem to get a correct figure.... I am looking for a fairly light 4 berth one but need to know what I can tow or any recommendations on here? My tow weight is 1400 but as the kerb weight seems to be totally different in different correspondence then I'm struggling

My V5C states the mass in service is 1711 which seems quite high??? but on other correspondece states it is between 1498/1566?

 

[Raywood]

Given the high kerb weight and the towing limit of 1400 kg then you do not have to worry about the 85% figure as the towing limit is the main constraint. Basically you will need to check the MTPLM for any caravan you look at and if the figure is 1400 or less then you have a match. This will largely be lower spec models but you do have a reasonable choice.
You will find more advice on http://www.caravanclub.co.uk/ at the bottom of the home page and Swift caravans have a section on buying on their website http://www.swiftgroup.co.uk/help-and-advice/first-time-buyer.
Bailey of Bristol give advice on a video on their site on hooking up to tow and siting and setting up when there. The Bailey video has one major error though they say attach the mains cable to the mains supply first and then to the caravan. In fact the opposite is correct as the video system means you would be carrying a live mains cable. Find it on http://bbtv.baileyofbristol.co.uk/Video/product-demonstration-getting-started-with-your-bailey-caravan#videoview

Hope this helps.

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

My V5C states the mass in service is 1711 which seems quite high??? but on other correspondece states it is between 1498/1566?

Please could you confirm that your V5C states 1711 kg against para G Mass In Service, or something else? If it does then there may be an error on the certificate, it has been known to happen. The only way you can be sure (and have peace of mind) is to take your car to a weigh bridge and weigh it.

 

[alibabaxx]

My V5C states the mass in service is 1711 which seems quite high??? but on other correspondece states it is between 1498/1566?

Please could you confirm that your V5C states 1711 kg against para G Mass In Service, or something else? If it does then there may be an error on the certificate, it has been known to happen. The only way you can be sure (and have peace of mind) is to take your car to a weigh bridge and weigh it.

yes para g mass in service

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

Off to the weigh bridge then.

 

[alibabaxx]

Off to the weigh bridge then.

Is that necessary then or should I just stick below the towing limit of 1400?

Just rang my local centre cost £20 to get weighed.

I have looked in the Nissan brochure that state the kerb weight is 1498/1566. 85% of the min value is 1273...

85% of the towing limit is 1190....

Does that sound about right?

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

Off to the weigh bridge then.

Is that necessary then or should I just stick below the towing limit of 1400?

Just rang my local centre cost £20 to get weighed.

I have looked in the Nissan brochure that state the kerb weight is 1498/1566. 85% of the min value is 1273...

85% of the towing limit is 1190....

Does that sound about right?

If you have conflicting information then nobody on a forum can give you the absolute values you are asking. The only way is, unfortunately, to weigh your car. It will give you peace of mind.

Edit - The recommended max towing weight is 85% of the kerb weight, not of the max towing limit.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello again, alibabaxx

As I wrote earlier it can be a bit complex to get your head around it all.

Lets just put the 85% guidance to one side for a moment. Let's establish what the car manufacture says the car can tow. Now, I note that you have a Nissan. Nissan is part owned by Renault, and that might be significant, because Renault sometimes (and it's not consistent) quote their maximum towed weight limits in a different way to most manufacturers.

You tell us your V5c gives the maximum towed weight limit is 1400kg (MTW). Now lets find out if this follows Renaults unhelpful method. You need to find the car's weight plate. This is often fixed on a door jamb, or in the engine compartment.

It will have at least 4 weight/mass figures. We are interested in the two largest figures The biggest is the Gross Train Weight (GTW) and the next biggest is the Gross Vehicle Weight(GVW). What is GTW minus the GVW ? If its the same as MTW then alls well, BUT if it follows the renault method MTW may be bigger than the subtracted value.

Please check these figures then we may be able to offer more focused suggestions.

 

[alibabaxx]

Hello again, alibabaxx

As I wrote earlier it can be a bit complex to get your head around it all.

Lets just put the 85% guidance to one side for a moment. Let's establish what the car manufacture says the car can tow. Now, I note that you have a Nissan. Nissan is part owned by Renault, and that might be significant, because Renault sometimes (and it's not consistent) quote their maximum towed weight limits in a different way to most manufacturers.

You tell us your V5c gives the maximum towed weight limit is 1400kg (MTW). Now lets find out if this follows Renaults unhelpful method. You need to find the car's weight plate. This is often fixed on a door jamb, or in the engine compartment.

It will have at least 4 weight/mass figures. We are interested in the two largest figures The biggest is the Gross Train Weight (GTW) and the next biggest is the Gross Vehicle Weight(GVW). What is GTW minus the GVW ? If its the same as MTW then alls well, BUT if it follows the renault method MTW may be bigger than the subtracted value.

Please check these figures then we may be able to offer more focused suggestions.

Hi, Yes the figure in order on the plate from top to bottom are:
2255
3655
1175
1215

That comes to 1400 the only problem I have is the kerb weight then ..... :huh:

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello again, alibabaxx

That is good news, it means that theoretically you could tow a trailer that weighs 1400kg whether the car is fully loaded or not.

Really the only reason you are trying to establish the cars kerbweight is to calculate the towing ratio then?

I'll assume that is your reason, and as such we need to get this 85% into perspective. It is only guidance! it has no legal implications, and it has no guarantees of making a good match or safe match, so a few % over is not going to be a deal breaker. Regardless of what the 'guidance may suggest, you must never exceed any maximum limits set by the tow vehicle manufacturer, as they do have legal implications.

Good towing is not achieved simply by getting a particular towing ratio, whether it 85% or any other figure. It's about getting a combination of factors into a sensible proportions. Other things such as ensuring both the tow vehicle and the trailer are properly maintained, using sensible loading methods to trim a sensible tow hitch nose load, good driving habits, taking proper actions in accordance to road and weather conditions. All these points are probably more important than the 'towing ratio'

The towing ratio is precise but anything but accurate (which is why I personally dislike such a prescriptive quoted value) The way its calculated represents the absolute worst possible case of the heaviest a caravan can be caravan towed by a car in it lightest possible configuration, a set of conditions that no one actually tows with so in reality the real 'ratio' will always be actually better than the calculated value.

Now the quoted kerb-weights you have are not exact, they are the manufacturers estimate and represent the range of weights they would expect allowing for manufacturing tolerances AND it may represent range for a number of models. You will be better using the MIS which is a measured weight of your vehicle, and its one of the figure the authorities will use if they query any vehicle loading concerns.

The most important thing is to ensure you do not exceed the vehicles maximum permitted weight limits, whist endeavouring to keep the trailer as light as possible.

 

[LizziePope]

Hi alibabaxx, welcome to the forum!

 

[alibabaxx]

Hello again, alibabaxx

That is good news, it means that theoretically you could tow a trailer that weighs 1400kg whether the car is fully loaded or not.

Really the only reason you are trying to establish the cars kerbweight is to calculate the towing ratio then?

Yes just so I can be sure that I would not be overdoing things with a caravan and as a novice towing a caravan

I have been looking at vans around the 1350 mark fully laden.....

 

[Sproket]

Hi, Yes the figure in order on the plate from top to bottom are:
2255
3655
1175
1215

That comes to 1400 the only problem I have is the kerb weight then ..... :huh:

Figure (1)
2255kg that is the maximum that your car can weigh when fully laden with all of you passengers, full tank of fuel and luggage / equipment that you require.... You will only find this out by loading your car and weighing it, yes it's a pain but it's better to have that info to use as a guide, you might be surprised by what it weighs .... Remember that on that weight that you get, you will have to add the nose weight of the caravan as it is carried by the back axle .....

Figure (2)
3655kg that is the maximum total loaded weight of you car & caravan combined.... you can't go over that weight.

Figure (3)
1175kg is the maximum weight allowed on your front axle / wheels.

Figure (4)
1215kg is the maximum weight allowed on your rear axle / wheels.

But you will notice that if you add them together it comes to a higher figure than your 2255kg max car weight by 135kg this is so that when things just ain't loaded right in the car you are still within your maximum loaded weight limit......

kerb weight is 1711. max trailer weight is 1400. power is 1598cc

Confused now as the book states kerbweight is 1498 min 1566 max but the mass in service number is 1711?
Thought these were the same thing?

You will have to take the car and weigh it too find the true kerb weight, then with that info you can do your correct weight calculation .......

 

[M5WJF]

In addition, if he has a B Licence 1997 onwards, then he can't tow a 1400kg trailer.

Since GTW is 3655kg, this is 155kg over the legal 3500kg for a combination...

 

[ProfJohnL]

In addition, if he has a B Licence 1997 onwards, then he can't tow a 1400kg trailer.

Since GTW is 3655kg, this is 155kg over the legal 3500kg for a combination...

If the OP does not have Cat Be or B+E entitlement on his licence then M5WJF's conclusion is correct, But his explanation is technically flawed in this case:-

The tow vehicles Gross Train Weight (GTW) is not a measured weight, it is a weight limit that applies specifically to the tow vehicle, and NOT the drivers licence.

The post 1997 Cat B entitlement limits the driver to a vehicle of MAM or Combined MAM not exceeding 3500kg. MAM stands for Maximum Authorised Mass.

Whilst this is a slightly simplified explanation it is safe:- The driver must take the MAM (or GVW) of the towvehicle, and add it to the MAM (or MTPLM) of the trailer, and if the sum exceeds 3500kg the driver must have Cat Be or B+E.

The reason this is not the same as GTW, is that the licence entitlement always looks to the maximum weight capacities regardless of how its loaded and its as black and white as that, but the GTW capacity of the tow vehicle is compared to what the outfit actually weighs. So subject to not exceeding any other limits it is perfectly legal for a tow vehicle to have a trailer with an MTPLM that exceeds it's towed weight limit, provided that its lightly loaded and its actual weight when towed does not exceed the towed weight limit of the tow vehicle.

 

[alibabaxx]

In addition, if he has a B Licence 1997 onwards, then he can't tow a 1400kg trailer.

Since GTW is 3655kg, this is 155kg over the legal 3500kg for a combination...

No we both have licences pre 97

 

[M5WJF]

I've since looked at ukpoliceonline and even they are confused.

None of my vehicles has a Type Approval Number, MPM, Technically Permissible Max Towing Mass, or indeed Trailer Weights, braked or unbraked.

I've had to work out from Car Clubs what the original manufacturer recommendations were, so to me this is just out of interest.

Whilst technically flawed it was probably a good idea to point out that for someone with a driving licence Post-1996 that MTPLM should be a consideration.

I do seem to remember some incident in the past where Police have pulled someone over for towing a Trailer with a plated MTPLM greater than the Towing Limit of the car, but perhaps when that went to Court it was thrown out.

I've since been quite wary about towing trailers plated with a greater MTPLM than the tow vehicle is recommended to tow, maybe this has been misplaced. However, it seems the Police will pull people over if they consider the tow vehicle 'looks' like it's too small for the trailer/caravan, and consider sending the combination to a weigh bridge.

I also understand that the Police regularly do a 'clampdown' on combinations, trying to give B Licence Holders six points and a fine, drivers are easy meat and grist to the mill it seems, and its all over an arbitrary date in the last millennium and Laws introduced here in Britain by a foreign power, but we'll not get into that discussion shall we.

Anyway, I've learned something today.