Hello.....newbie after advice

[ProfJohnL]

............
Whilst technically flawed it was probably a good idea to point out that for someone with a driving licence Post-1996 that MTPLM should be a consideration.

I do seem to remember some incident in the past where Police have pulled someone over for towing a Trailer with a plated MTPLM greater than the Towing Limit of the car, but perhaps when that went to Court it was thrown out.

I've since been quite wary about towing trailers plated with a greater MTPLM than the tow vehicle is recommended to tow, maybe this has been misplaced. However, it seems the Police will pull people over if they consider the tow vehicle 'looks' like it's too small for the trailer/caravan, and consider sending the combination to a weigh bridge....................................

If someone wishes to only use a trailer whose MTPLM is no greater than the tow vehicles towing limit is of course perfectly acceptable, and it is always wiser to keep a trailers weight as small as possible, but is not a legal requirement from the tow vehicles perspective.

It is my understanding that providing your licence allows it, you cannot be convicted of an excess weight felony for towing a trailer whose MTPLM is greater than the tow vehicles limit , provided the actual weight of the trailer is less than the tow vehicles manufacturers limit. A prosecution would have to follow a weight check by the authorities.

But the police can stop and prosecute an outfit that for a stated reason if they have reason to believe and prove in court is unsafe even if its not technically overloaded. This is of course far more subjective than a simple excess weight case.

 

[Jules_ht]

Hi, Yes the figure in order on the plate from top to bottom are:
2255
3655
1175
1215

That comes to 1400 the only problem I have is the kerb weight then ..... :huh:

You might find it useful to know that the associated documentation provided with your MOT (specifically the brake balance printout) is highly likely to tell you the two axle weights at the time the test was taken. You can obviously add these together to calculate the actual weight of the vehicle in whatever trim the test was taken. I have found this to be useful information in assessing the weight ratios.

 

[ProfJohnL]

You might find it useful to know that the associated documentation provided with your MOT (specifically the brake balance printout) is highly likely to tell you the two axle weights at the time the test was taken. You can obviously add these together to calculate the actual weight of the vehicle in whatever trim the test was taken. I have found this to be useful information in assessing the weight ratios.

Hello Jules,
I checked my last few MOT's and non of them included a record of the brake balance results yet alone the axle weights, so that information is not always available for the owner. Perhaps you have to ask for it. Also because the MOT rollers are sunk into the ground it actually cause the wheel to drop which will increase the the actual load on the wheel by some amount for exactly the same reasons that the nose weight of a caravan changes when the hitch is raised or lowered.

Even so, as you correctly point out, if you do get the weight results they only represent the weight of the vehicle as it was at the time of the MOT. That will not represent the cars unladen or kerbweight, so its use for calculating the classic towing ratio is severely limited and cannot be related to any advisory guidance or statutory measurements for assessing weights unless it exceeds the axle loadings or MAM for the vehicle.

I am certain that a significant proportion of caravan instability incidents have occurred with outfit's where the classic towing ratio is under the 85% guidance, so in practice, establishing the towing ratio is more of an academic exercise than a practical one as there is no magic value that will guarantee a good tow, yet alone a safe tow.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi all, we all know or should know from the regular topics, that weight legislation is very complex, and while as the Prof often tells us it is the drivers responsibility to make sure the unit they are driving is legal and safe.
it is also true that different bits of the legislation seem to contradict other bits of legislation. so how one is supposed to know which bit is applicable is a mine field.
take the case of the cat B licence, this is the only piece of legislation that assumes the theoretical technical mass of the total unit weight is what matters including adding the noseweight twice. as it is the total weight of the two elements MAM that is used even if the actual weight is far less, I have never understood this, how can a empty boat trailer of car transporter weight the same empty as it does with a load added, but there you go.
all other legislation is concerned with actual axle or tow load, as long as the OP keeps within these parameters it will be fine, looking at the figures, 1400kg would seem to be the maximum permissible so with the noseweight deduction just about any lightweight 4 berth would fit the bill, although it would be preferable to go as light as possible with a tow car that has a 1.6ltr engine, bearing in mind the the vans total user payload, we ALL, start caravanning with an empty van and over the years add to it. the amount of stuff one caries is suprising, it would be very easy to overload the lightest van.
so it may well serve not to go too light, one must remember though loading the van is more important than the ratio figure as towing with even the lightest van is no garauntee of a stable tow,
choose a van that has the layout one likes, has a decent user payload is within the parameters of the tow car and go enjoy many years of caravan holidays.

 

[ProfJohnL]

........
it is also true that different bits of the legislation seem to contradict other bits of legislation. so how one is supposed to know which bit is applicable is a mine field.
take the case of the cat B licence, this is the only piece of legislation that assumes the theoretical technical mass of the total unit weight is what matters including adding the noseweight twice. as it is the total weight of the two elements MAM that is used even if the actual weight is far less................,I have never understood this, how can a empty boat trailer of car transporter weight the same empty as it does with a load added, but there you go.....

Hello Colin,

I would agree the regulations in total are complex, but being complex does not make them illogical or wrong, just that if you want to understand them you have be prepared to work at it. Taking each element in manageable bite sized pieces they are logical.

The legislation about driving licences is about the maximum size or weight of vehicle the driver is allowed to drive. The wording of the Cat B entitlement specifically looks at the "Combined MAM" of tow vehicle and trailer. That is not the simple arithmetic sum of the tow vehicle's and trailer's MAM's it allows for the nose weight anomaly, a point that I and others have explained extensively.

The other legislation you refer to is looking at the mechanical ability of the vehicles involved.

These two areas of legislation are not trying to achieve the same end so their governing criteria and application are not the same, and should not be compared or confused with each other.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hello John.
no it doesn't make the laws wrong, illogical not so sure, I read the reams of the legislation the last time the Cat B licence came up, no where in the scrip did I read any reference to concessions regarding weight reduction of any kind.
except for the omission of the word MAM and the use of the term total, however this was mentioned in another file, but again made no mention of a concession regarding weight reduction. if you did not read all the files there would be no way of knowing. Surely if the MAM is to be used it is the MTPLM and the gross vehicle weight, because to allow the a reduction in the trailers MAM would then allow the licence holder to drive a unit, of any size above the 3500kg limit dependant on whatever the noseweight was, however this would involve uncoupling the trailer and weighing each componant of the unit, including the nosweight in use at the time.
it is also illogical to assume that a trailer [a caravan is just a trailer] is at it's MAM even when empty, even a first grade student knows that a horse box with no horses in it, or a boat trailer with no boat aboard doesn't weigh the same, yet wether empty or full. it is deemed to be at it's MAM.

when we had the motorhome it was a source of irritation, as both my sons could have used the van, but my daughter could not as the gross vehicle weight was plated 3700kg, and she was the only one that may have wished to use it !! even though I had to have it weighed when finished for the MOT,
it weighed 3300kg and as such only needed a normal car MOT were as a vehicle over 3500kg had to have a class 5 test, in my view thats is illogical, but as I said there you go!!!

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Colin

Again your conclusions in your first paragraph show that you have not grasped the key constructional elements of the legislation behind the driving licence entitlements.

Forget actual weights of vehicles and consider their capacities. The entitlements enable a person to drive vehicles with Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) no greater than the limit for the entitlement.

Let us say I was licenced to carry a water bucket(s) to a total capacity of 10kg. That means I could have 1 x 10L bucket, or 2 x 5 L buckets because conveniently 1L of water weighs 1kg.
You might suggest, "why not have 2 x 10L buckets but only half fill them as that would still give a load of 10kg". But the answer is no, because the licence looks at the capacity not the load, and 2 x 10L would have a capacity of 20kg which exceeds the entitlement afforded by the licence.

Using capacity is a way of differentiating between classes of vehicles. It also enable the authorities to quickly check the entitlement of the driver to drive a particular vehicle, without having to weigh the vehicle.

All driving licence entitlements as described in the EC document are based on MAM's (even though the Gov't web site fails to make this clear), so why should the B entitlement be any different?

The MOT relates to the car not the driver, so a different set of rules have been used. In most cases providing the relevant specification limits have not been exceeded, the legislation relates to the ability (not entitlement) of the vehicle to perform certain tasks. so that relies on measurements of performance. That same tenant is extended to cover the towing ability of the vehicle.

Without knowing exactly what document your read I can't comment regarding the wording you saw, but my interpretation is based on the source Act of Parliament in the form of the agreed UK approved harmonised EC document.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

Hello Colin

Forget actual weights of vehicles and consider their capacities. The entitlements enable a person to drive vehicles with Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) no greater than the limit for the entitlement.

Using capacity is a way of differentiating between classes of vehicles. It also enable the authorities to quickly check the entitlement of the driver to drive a particular vehicle, without having to weigh the vehicle.

All driving licence entitlements as described in the EC document are based on MAM's (even though the Gov't web site fails to make this clear), so why should the B entitlement be any different?.

that is exactly my point John. the weight is based on MAM, so a Cat B holder can only drive a vehicle with a MAM or GVW of 3500kg , or a combination of car and trailer that has a MAM of 3500kg. not 3600kg less noseweight [if that happens to be 100kg] as that could not be established without weighing the outfit.
how strange then is it that the same licence holder can drive a vehicle of 3500kg MAM plus a trailer that weighs no more than 750kg, MAM or a total train weight of 4250kg, but not car of 3000kg MAM and a trailer of 800kg MAM.
does that sound logical to you, it dosen't to me.

 

[ProfJohnL]

....................
how strange then is it that the same licence holder can drive a vehicle of 3500kg MAM plus a trailer that weighs no more than 750kg, MAM or a total train weight of 4250kg, but not car of 3000kg MAM and a trailer of 800kg MAM.
does that sound logical to you, it dosen't to me.

Hello Colin,
I can't disagree with that point - but as it does not apply to caravans I have never followed that one up.

 

[M5WJF]

It's also illogical to restrict none commercial Category C1E with a 107 weight restriction, giving a 7500kg tow vehicle up to a 750kg trailer (8250kg), despite the driver having passed a test for a C1E combination of 12000kg prior to licence changes in 1997.
An illogical position to adopt when the same driver IS allowed none commercial D1E up to 12000kg for the combination with a 119 'weight restriction does not apply' code attached to it.
Apparently, to drive C1E up to 12000kg none commercially, you have to pass a commercial test, including CPC Qualification, a medical, and would be restricted to a renewable five year licence, and the fitting of a tachograph.

I see no difference between the none commercial driving of a 12000kg C1E combination, and the none commercial driving of a 12000kg D1E combination, but apparently there is.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Much of the UK licence and vehicle legislation we have to follow is the result of historical changes often brought about through pressure group lobbying, for example I believe some of the original HGV legislation was introduced because the transport workers unions wanted to protect their interests, so the unions lobbied parliament, and effectively obtained a closed shop agreements.

It is likely that similar action in other European countries also evolved similarly restrictive practices, and when the EU had to produce an EU wide structure, it had to take into account many of these local idiosyncrasies, with the inevitable result being a complex EU driving license entitlement structure.

But despite the vagaries of other entitlements, they consistently use the MAM or equivalent criteria to help differentiate vehicle groups enabled by an entitlement. In the context of caravanning the relevant entitlements are Cat B, B+E or Be depending on the date you took your basic driving test.