HELP please :- The cracking or tearing of the aluminium skins of certain caravans.

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi to you all out there. I am interested in any information about when the cracking or tearing of the aluminium skins at the lower right hand corner of the nearside forward window on twin axle and the longer single axle caravans.
I am specifically interested in knowing the earliest date at which caravanners first started noticing this happening with their caravans. This could also have been on a caravan belonging to another caravanner that they personally new and had seen it for themselves.

 

[Surfer]

Never heard of this or experienced it and we have had 3 twin axles.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Never heard of this or experienced it and we have had 3 twin axles.

Hi Surfer. What were the three twin axle caravans that you have had and have you ever had single axle caravans?
Had is past tense,therefore I take it that the Lunar Delta Ti is the fourth twin axle that you have had experience of.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi to you all out there. I have tried to upload an image of the issue that my opening post describes but I have not had any success,I have used photobucket and followed the suggestions posted by Parksy. Indeed,I printed them off and followed them.

Is there any way that images can be uploaded straightly from my PC?

 

[Dustydog]

None of my SAs have ever had this problem, the last one being a series 5 Bailey Pageant Vendee.
We've had our current TA from new. She is nearly 6 years old and covered many thousands of miles with no signs of cracking.
I have seen stress aluminium cracks on an Elddis Crusader Super Storm a few years ago but that was down to a manufacturing error which I believe was fully remedied.
A friend of mine has an Avondale Osprey where the side wall has pulled away from the floor. We think this is a manufacturing defect caused by using wrong screws and screwing into the plywood causing it to delaminate.
What make and model have you?

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

None of my SAs have ever had this problem, the last one being a series 5 Bailey Pageant Vendee.
We've had our current TA from new. She is nearly 6 years old and covered many thousands of miles with no signs of cracking.
I have seen stress aluminium cracks on an Elddis Crusader Super Storm a few years ago but that was down to a manufacturing error which I believe was fully remedied.
A friend of mine has an Avondale Osprey where the side wall has pulled away from the floor. We think this is a manufacturing defect caused by using wrong screws and screwing into the plywood causing it to delaminate.
What make and model have you?

Hi Dustydog. Interesting statement about the Elddis Super Storm. I bet it was a Post-1998 one,it was more than likely a Post 2001 model also. Have you only ever had SA caravans?
The problem has not been fully remedied,indeed I believe that the initial repairs on Elddis caravans that were out of warranty/guarantee were conducted by a business somewhere in West or South Yorkshire. He then reported his findings back to them and then they were said to have taken steps to rectify the problem. The problem was allegedly an issue with the corner inserts of timber/material that complete the frame that carries the window and is sandwiched into the wall.
The problem is still occurring and I have reason to believe that prior to SoLiD there had been a report of a caravan as little as 6months old being affected.
I/we have a 2001 Elddis Crusader SuperSirocco. It was purchased in July of 2010 and is a one previous owner example,despite being 9yrs old it looked like new inside and you might well have thought; that it had not been used.

 

[Dustydog]

None of my SAs have ever had this problem, the last one being a series 5 Bailey Pageant Vendee.
We've had our current TA from new. She is nearly 6 years old and covered many thousands of miles with no signs of cracking.
I have seen stress aluminium cracks on an Elddis Crusader Super Storm a few years ago but that was down to a manufacturing error which I believe was fully remedied.
A friend of mine has an Avondale Osprey where the side wall has pulled away from the floor. We think this is a manufacturing defect caused by using wrong screws and screwing into the plywood causing it to delaminate.
What make and model have you?

Hi Dustydog. Interesting statement about the Elddis Super Storm. I bet it was a Post-1998 one,it was more than likely a Post 2001 model also. Have you only ever had SA caravans?
The problem has not been fully remedied,indeed I believe that the initial repairs on Elddis caravans that were out of warranty/guarantee were conducted by a business somewhere in West or South Yorkshire. He then reported his findings back to them and then they were said to have taken steps to rectify the problem. The problem was allegedly an issue with the corner inserts of timber/material that complete the frame that carries the window and is sandwiched into the wall.
The problem is still occurring and I have reason to believe that prior to SoLiD there had been a report of a caravan as little as 6months old being affected.
I/we have a 2001 Elddis Crusader SuperSirocco. It was purchased in July of 2010 and is a one previous owner example,despite being 9yrs old it looked like new inside and you might well have thought; that it had not been used.

Now then Travelling Rooster

Before we set hares racing it is worth noting that unlike car manufacturers the caravan boys rarely do product recalls.

It always seemed to me the Elddis issue was glossed over. If you reported the issue to your dealer it got fixed and that was that. Elddis are not alone on this front.

However as I am sure our Learned Prof will tell you nine years is so "old" Elddis will probably not wish to help.
However providing you have some independent technical evidence to show there was an inherent latent defect at point of sale it may be worth a letter to Elddis asking for help.
In truth I think you will get nothing so it's best to find a caravan repairer skilled in the Elddis issue and sadly at your own expense get them to fix the problem.

I agree you will probably find some of the required support timbers are missing ,hence the failure.
Sadly you stand alone.
However when and how did you buy the Elddis?

Credit Card?

 

[ProfJohnL]

Sadly I think we have been here before, perhaps in a slightly different guise.

I would love to be wrong about the likely outcome, but frankly this attempt to gather evidence to try and prove there is a design fault on a 9 year old caravan where the fault has only just become apparent is not worth even attempting, unless you have a wish to become embroiled in a long and very very expensive legal battle, which based on the available information is so improbable to win.

How likely is it that a caravan lasts 9 years and then develops a symptom of a design fault?

How can you possibly show that on the balance of probability that the caravan has not been towed over extreme terrain which might have precipitated the failure, especially as it is second hand?

Rooster I wish you well, but this is so unlikely to succeed like the Dragons I have to say its not worth investing time and money and "I'm out"

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

None of my SAs have ever had this problem, the last one being a series 5 Bailey Pageant Vendee.
We've had our current TA from new. She is nearly 6 years old and covered many thousands of miles with no signs of cracking.
I have seen stress aluminium cracks on an Elddis Crusader Super Storm a few years ago but that was down to a manufacturing error which I believe was fully remedied.
A friend of mine has an Avondale Osprey where the side wall has pulled away from the floor. We think this is a manufacturing defect caused by using wrong screws and screwing into the plywood causing it to delaminate.
What make and model have you?

Hi Dustydog. Interesting statement about the Elddis Super Storm. I bet it was a Post-1998 one,it was more than likely a Post 2001 model also. Have you only ever had SA caravans?
The problem has not been fully remedied,indeed I believe that the initial repairs on Elddis caravans that were out of warranty/guarantee were conducted by a business somewhere in West or South Yorkshire. He then reported his findings back to them and then they were said to have taken steps to rectify the problem. The problem was allegedly an issue with the corner inserts of timber/material that complete the frame that carries the window and is sandwiched into the wall.
The problem is still occurring and I have reason to believe that prior to SoLiD there had been a report of a caravan as little as 6months old being affected.
I/we have a 2001 Elddis Crusader SuperSirocco. It was purchased in July of 2010 and is a one previous owner example,despite being 9yrs old it looked like new inside and you might well have thought; that it had not been used.

Now then Travelling Rooster

Before we set hares racing it is worth noting that unlike car manufacturers the caravan boys rarely do product recalls.

It always seemed to me the Elddis issue was glossed over. If you reported the issue to your dealer it got fixed and that was that. Elddis are not alone on this front.

However as I am sure our Learned Prof will tell you nine years is so "old" Elddis will probably not wish to help.
However providing you have some independent technical evidence to show there was an inherent latent defect at point of sale it may be worth a letter to Elddis asking for help.
In truth I think you will get nothing so it's best to find a caravan repairer skilled in the Elddis issue and sadly at your own expense get them to fix the problem.

I agree you will probably find some of the required support timbers are missing ,hence the failure.
Sadly you stand alone.
However when and how did you buy the Elddis?

Credit Card?

Hi Dustydog. Firstly. I have no illusions;whatsoever, about Caravan Manufacturers and recalls. It would need to be something far more serious than a few hundred of their products suffering with cracking of the aluminium skins. If you break that down between the various model badges that they run,it becomes even less significant.
I would like to make it perfectly clear that this research/questionnaire/help request is not for my own personal benefit.
This has got absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with my SuperSirocco either. The caravan as I have already declared is now 12yrs old and I got it at 9yrs old as a one previous owner example.
The caravan was purchased from a now;long time defunct dealership.
Elddis as a company are passing the current identical damages of as impact/pothole damage,there are however no reported issues of damaged tyres,buckled/deformed alloy wheels or any other damages that could be linked to the cracking as a direct result of impact damage.
Furthermore there is a PDF in existence dating back to Saturday 12th March 2011 that contains and admission by David Whitehead to the effect that the issue was known by the company and changes to the design have now been made.
Well,they have been ineffective changes, simply because the issue is still occurring on their caravans that are post-2011build. As yet there have not been any reports of the issue on the models from 2013 build date;start date.
I did not say that there were support timbers missing,the issue had previously been identified by a third party source and identified as being specific to the corner inserts that are inserted separately and form a part of the overall frame structure.
It is of little consequence in my particular case but the caravan was paid for outright and with no finance and no credit card.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Sadly I think we have been here before, perhaps in a slightly different guise.

I would love to be wrong about the likely outcome, but frankly this attempt to gather evidence to try and prove there is a design fault on a 9 year old caravan where the fault has only just become apparent is not worth even attempting, unless you have a wish to become embroiled in a long and very very expensive legal battle, which based on the available information is so improbable to win.

How likely is it that a caravan lasts 9 years and then develops a symptom of a design fault?

How can you possibly show that on the balance of probability that the caravan has not been towed over extreme terrain which might have precipitated the failure, especially as it is second hand?

Rooster I wish you well, but this is so unlikely to succeed like the Dragons I have to say its not worth investing time and money and "I'm out"

Hi Prof JohnL. I am not trying prove anything, nor to do anything and especially trying to do something or alter the course of something that has already been proven by a third party in the business of caravan repairs and eventually admitted to at a meeting on the 12th March 2011. It is all documented on a PDF. The homologation manager for the company responded to a question that was specifically about a 15months old Compass Rallye that had panel damage that included the cracking/tearing issue as well as other issues (read my reply to Dustydog).
The only investment of monies will be of my own choosing and only if it the issue proves to be prohibitive in the sale/PX of the caravan in due-course.
My main interest in the opening post was to attempt to establish whether the problem of cracking/tearing had been an issue across the longer single axle and twin axle caravans in general but those with the door aperture forward of the axle/axles.

 

[Dustydog]

None of my SAs have ever had this problem, the last one being a series 5 Bailey Pageant Vendee.
We've had our current TA from new. She is nearly 6 years old and covered many thousands of miles with no signs of cracking.
I have seen stress aluminium cracks on an Elddis Crusader Super Storm a few years ago but that was down to a manufacturing error which I believe was fully remedied.
A friend of mine has an Avondale Osprey where the side wall has pulled away from the floor. We think this is a manufacturing defect caused by using wrong screws and screwing into the plywood causing it to delaminate.
What make and model have you?

Hi Dustydog. Interesting statement about the Elddis Super Storm. I bet it was a Post-1998 one,it was more than likely a Post 2001 model also. Have you only ever had SA caravans?
The problem has not been fully remedied,indeed I believe that the initial repairs on Elddis caravans that were out of warranty/guarantee were conducted by a business somewhere in West or South Yorkshire. He then reported his findings back to them and then they were said to have taken steps to rectify the problem. The problem was allegedly an issue with the corner inserts of timber/material that complete the frame that carries the window and is sandwiched into the wall.
The problem is still occurring and I have reason to believe that prior to SoLiD there had been a report of a caravan as little as 6months old being affected.
I/we have a 2001 Elddis Crusader SuperSirocco. It was purchased in July of 2010 and is a one previous owner example,despite being 9yrs old it looked like new inside and you might well have thought; that it had not been used.

Hi Rooster

I see. So my assumption were correct in so far as the issues do relate to the Elddis camp , . Granted. These were problems from the past. I suspect the new Solid construction method will not suffer the same issues, fingers crossed.
If you search back through the annuls of time you will find some Bucaneer owners had issues.

I thought the affected models had all been captured by now.
As the Prof says it is extremely unlikely a manufacturer will cough up now. However I do note your reference to much newer models and that is. Different matter.

Now then Travelling Rooster

Before we set hares racing it is worth noting that unlike car manufacturers the caravan boys rarely do product recalls.

It always seemed to me the Elddis issue was glossed over. If you reported the issue to your dealer it got fixed and that was that. Elddis are not alone on this front.

However as I am sure our Learned Prof will tell you nine years is so "old" Elddis will probably not wish to help.
However providing you have some independent technical evidence to show there was an inherent latent defect at point of sale it may be worth a letter to Elddis asking for help.
In truth I think you will get nothing so it's best to find a caravan repairer skilled in the Elddis issue and sadly at your own expense get them to fix the problem.

I agree you will probably find some of the required support timbers are missing ,hence the failure.
Sadly you stand alone.
However when and how did you buy the Elddis?

Credit Card?

Hi Dustydog. Firstly. I have no illusions;whatsoever, about Caravan Manufacturers and recalls. It would need to be something far more serious than a few hundred of their products suffering with cracking of the aluminium skins. If you break that down between the various model badges that they run,it becomes even less significant.
I would like to make it perfectly clear that this research/questionnaire/help request is not for my own personal benefit.
This has got absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with my SuperSirocco either. The caravan as I have already declared is now 12yrs old and I got it at 9yrs old as a one previous owner example.
The caravan was purchased from a now;long time defunct dealership.
Elddis as a company are passing the current identical damages of as impact/pothole damage,there are however no reported issues of damaged tyres,buckled/deformed alloy wheels or any other damages that could be linked to the cracking as a direct result of impact damage.
Furthermore there is a PDF in existence dating back to Saturday 12th March 2011 that contains and admission by David Whitehead to the effect that the issue was known by the company and changes to the design have now been made.
Well,they have been ineffective changes, simply because the issue is still occurring on their caravans that are post-2011build. As yet there have not been any reports of the issue on the models from 2013 build date;start date.
I did not say that there were support timbers missing,the issue had previously been identified by a third party source and identified as being specific to the corner inserts that are inserted separately and form a part of the overall frame structure.
It is of little consequence in my particular case but the caravan was paid for outright and with no finance and no credit card.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi Dustydog. Why do you believe that the new construction method of SoLiD will not suffer the skin cracking/crazing issue?
As I understand it,the only major difference is in the use of the Henkel Bonding System for bonding as opposed to screws. Yes the caravans apparently stronger,yes they are lighter,yes they are allegedly going to be dryer but,they are still clad in an outer skin of aluminium.
This issue of cracking/tearing at the forward window in the lower right-hand lower corner position only only appears to have been going on since the longer single axle and twin axle variants had the door positioned forward of the axle/axles.
Earlier issues with the aluminium skins cracking on the upper radii's above the door was on the variants that had rear end doors. This was reported as being caused by excessive entering and exiting without the rear steadies being deployed.
The other thing that is a little strange is that in November of 2010 Elddis carried out a rigorous testing programme at the Iveco Testing Ground. It is claimed to replicate 5yrs of towing and therefore untold hours and hours of towing and yet the cracking/tearing has still occurred.

 

[Dustydog]

Hi Dustydog. Why do you believe that the new construction method of SoLiD will not suffer the skin cracking/crazing issue?
As I understand it,the only major difference is in the use of the Henkel Bonding System for bonding as opposed to screws. Yes the caravans apparently stronger,yes they are lighter,yes they are allegedly going to be dryer but,they are still clad in an outer skin of aluminium.
This issue of cracking/tearing at the forward window in the lower right-hand lower corner position only only appears to have been going on since the longer single axle and twin axle variants had the door positioned forward of the axle/axles.
Earlier issues with the aluminium skins cracking on the upper radii's above the door was on the variants that had rear end doors. This was reported as being caused by excessive entering and exiting without the rear steadies being deployed.
The other thing that is a little strange is that in November of 2010 Elddis carried out a rigorous testing programme at the Iveco Testing Ground. It is claimed to replicate 5yrs of towing and therefore untold hours and hours of towing and yet the cracking/tearing has still occurred.

Hi Travelling Rooster.

A number of concerned owners have voiced their concerns on the problem you raise, both on this forum and indeed as you yourself have done on CT.

All I know from what I have read there appears to have been a weakness in the timber frame design which allowed the aluminium skin to become stress loaded , hence the cracks.
I thought both Elddis and their dealers had fixed this issue by addition of timbers top the frame

As for Solid, Alu Tech etc I can only hope the basic frames are correctly designed and no matter what length the caravan , no cracking issues will arise.

 

[RogerL]

I'm clearly missing something - the chassis, Alko or BPW, is there to provide strength and stability for the bodywork - cracks of the nature described indicate too much flex in the chassis/floor and that's where attention should surely be given, rather than the bodywork itself.
Even before Alutec and SoLid was brought out, caravan manufacturers have been reducing the wood framing within the sandwich walls so that it's only used to strengthen furniture attachment points nowadays, rather than strengthen the sandwich body panels as it was in the '80s when foam sandwich construction became universal.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi Dustydog. Why do you believe that the new construction method of SoLiD will not suffer the skin cracking/crazing issue?
As I understand it,the only major difference is in the use of the Henkel Bonding System for bonding as opposed to screws. Yes the caravans apparently stronger,yes they are lighter,yes they are allegedly going to be dryer but,they are still clad in an outer skin of aluminium.
This issue of cracking/tearing at the forward window in the lower right-hand lower corner position only only appears to have been going on since the longer single axle and twin axle variants had the door positioned forward of the axle/axles.
Earlier issues with the aluminium skins cracking on the upper radii's above the door was on the variants that had rear end doors. This was reported as being caused by excessive entering and exiting without the rear steadies being deployed.
The other thing that is a little strange is that in November of 2010 Elddis carried out a rigorous testing programme at the Iveco Testing Ground. It is claimed to replicate 5yrs of towing and therefore untold hours and hours of towing and yet the cracking/tearing has still occurred.

Hi Travelling Rooster.

A number of concerned owners have voiced their concerns on the problem you raise, both on this forum and indeed as you yourself have done on CT.

All I know from what I have read there appears to have been a weakness in the timber frame design which allowed the aluminium skin to become stress loaded , hence the cracks.
I thought both Elddis and their dealers had fixed this issue by addition of timbers top the frame

As for Solid, Alu Tech etc I can only hope the basic frames are correctly designed and no matter what length the caravan , no cracking issues will arise.

Hi again Dd. I raised this issue out of interest/curiosity just after I got our the 2001 Elddis Crusader SuperSirocco back in July of 2010. unfortunately I had a rather scary health issue that took up the next 9months and it was only discovered in the Spring of 2011 when the caravan was washed and detailed by me ready for the seasons use. I believe that the issue had been disguised by the now defunct dealership local to where I lived at the time of purchase. It was only the onset of the need to put it into storage and then the cleaning down of it that delayed the discovery of the problem,by which time they had gone with a very very loud BANG.
Unfortunately my old PC suffered a fried hard-drive and I cannot locate the name of the company and the chaps name that first identified the problem and reported it back to Elddis.
The findings revealed an issue with corner blocks that were inserted to complete the frame structure,they were machined thinner than the straight sections of adjoining top,bottom & side rails.
The laminating up of the side panel and ultimately the aluminium skin was therefore compromised because of an uneven foundation layers.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

I'm clearly missing something - the chassis, Alko or BPW, is there to provide strength and stability for the bodywork - cracks of the nature described indicate too much flex in the chassis/floor and that's where attention should surely be given, rather than the bodywork itself.
Even before Alutec and SoLid was brought out, caravan manufacturers have been reducing the wood framing within the sandwich walls so that it's only used to strengthen furniture attachment points nowadays, rather than strengthen the sandwich body panels as it was in the '80s when foam sandwich construction became universal.

Hi Roger. No,you are missing absolutely nothing and that was the whole point of my very early journey into this issue.
The problem has occurred more predominantly on the models with the door in the forward position and it appears to more seriously affect the longer single axle and the twin axle variants.
The cracking has been reported at other locations in relation to window apertures being cut into the panels. It was also an issue with rear end doors and cracking above the door opening and at the positions of the top corner radii.
To get a more accurate flavour of this issue and some other rather ugly and quite disconcerting ones you would need to go into CT and research back to the first concerns about the ever increasing issues concerning the marque.
Some have been seriously butchered (sorry,modified) others have become locked topics and some have been technologically Cyber Shredded.

 

[Dustydog]

Hi TR
Did Elddis ever explain themselves how they would fix the fault back at the factory?

 

[seth1]

Im not quite sure you can pin the blame on the chassis frame.All chassis frames of that nature have to flex and twist.Granted the frames from Alko and BPW dont look spectacular in the grade of steel,but BPW are a well respected name in other areas.I would only expect the frame to be stiff longitudally,laturally and diagnolly its going to twist,it would have to unless it would break.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi TR
Did Elddis ever explain themselves how they would fix the fault back at the factory?

Hi Dustydog. Actually,no I don't think that they ever did. There again,how do you go about explaining a fix on something that has constantly been denied that it was ever an issue/complaint. This could be an all time unique situation,the virtual/theoretical fixing of something that not only hasn't been a problem but wasn't busted in the first place.
I recall some years back that there were two very very large automotive manufacturers that kept denying the existence of two individual issues. The most famous was the design defect that had crumple zones crumpling and causing fuel tanks to rupture and the other was a tyre related issue on an American Truck range.
Both of the manufacturers repeatedly denied the respective issue and elected to cough-up when claims reached the courts rather than deal with the issues and stand up and be counted.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Im not quite sure you can pin the blame on the chassis frame.All chassis frames of that nature have to flex and twist.Granted the frames from Alko and BPW dont look spectacular in the grade of steel,but BPW are a well respected name in other areas.I would only expect the frame to be stiff longitudally,laturally and diagnolly its going to twist,it would have to unless it would break.

Hi seth. I don't believe that that is what is being attempted. The failure is in the fact that provision had not been made for the inherent weakness caused by the changes in the configuration of the new layouts and the implication of the extra body length/weight that is forward of the axle/axles.
It would appear that the shorter single axle variants with the forward positioned doors are relatively unaffected.

 

[RogerL]

Im not quite sure you can pin the blame on the chassis frame.All chassis frames of that nature have to flex and twist.Granted the frames from Alko and BPW dont look spectacular in the grade of steel,but BPW are a well respected name in other areas.I would only expect the frame to be stiff longitudally,laturally and diagnolly its going to twist,it would have to unless it would break.

The nature of the "wishbone" chassis is very resistant to twist, by virtue of the stiffness in the axle tube - far more so than it's longitudinal strength - it may be a lack of longitudinal strength that is contributing to this issue together with possible grounding of the front members due to their length on longer caravans.
Modern, ie post '80s, foam sandwich caravan bodies have almost zero resistance to twisting and little resistance to longitudinal or lateral bending - virtually all their "strength" comes from the chassis.

 

[seth1]

I dont agree with that Roger L.If that was the case there would be no need for corner steadys.By your implication the frame in question must be different than any other independent frame ever made.Although i dont argue the axle tube will put strenth in to it.It will still be designed to flex around the tube.That idea can clearly be seen other wise more cross members would be fitted and there not.The strength in the frame side members will be in the longitudial direction as the folding of the steel is biased towards the verticle as agaist the horizontal plain.I still think twisting has a lot to do with it.I see it time and time again with commercial tipping trailers,the frame flexis but the the body stays rigid and breaks.

 

[RogerL]

The chassis A-frame and side members have longitudinal beam strength but zero transverse beam strength and zero torsional stiffness.The axle tube has lateral beam strength AND torsional stiffness.
The caravan body, excluding the chassis/floor assembly, has got very little strength/stiffness in any direction.
I know that finite element analysis is computerised in CAD these days but the basic principle remain the same !