**Help ** required before decision to add more weight

[Saxo Appeal]

Good morning everyone,

I’m looking for some advise quickly, before I agree to the A/C being fitted to my new Swift Challenger Grande SE 670, we pick the new caravan up on the 9th October.

The original plate has MRO 1683kg and MTPLM 1863kg, the MTPLM is now updated to 2000kg, I have driven with a trailer before but not a caravan.

Am I right in saying as a new caravan driver I should be looking at the 85% rule, which with my car is about (2118 x 85/100) is 1800.
- 1800 - 1683 leaves 117kg payload available?

Or should I be going with maximum Tow KG which is 2400 x 85/100?

We have already had AWD Powrtouch Motor movers added which is 70kg, 2 x TV’s at 6.4kg and a battery which is I presume is 20kg, plus the decision about the A/C at 28kg,
this already takes us up to 124kg, and that's without pots and pans, plates cutlery and the likes., so we have already went over.... arghhhh

Can you please correct me if I’m wrong with my calculations, and help me as I’m stressing out about the weights again.

I have attached the weight results below from Towsafe, but I can see they have the Unladen and user payload wrong, as per plat eon carvan also posted.

Thanks Lee.


Weight plate on Caravan

 

[RogerL]

The calculation of the NCC Towing Ratio is caravan MTPLM times 100 divided by car kerbweight - so 2000 x 100 / 2118 = 94%.

You'll get some who dismiss the 85% guideline while others think it's a good place for beginners to start.

 

[Saxo Appeal]

Thanks Roger,

So using that calculation, and using for example 85%, what Payload would that allow me to use?
And if I streteched to 90% and nore more what would that allowable payload be?

Sorry I'm getting so confused by all this

 

[shouldknowbettor]

I'd ignore the 85% rule tbh. It doesn't really make sense once you tow some different stuff and realise that +- 100 kg makes no discernible difference to handling if -

Your vehicle has sufficient power
Your vehicle has good brakes
You don't poorly load them

 

[RogerL]

Thanks Roger,

So using that calculation, and using for example 85%, what Payload would that allow me to use?
And if I streteched to 90% and nore more what would that allowable payload be?

Sorry I'm getting so confused by all this

The calculation uses the MTPLM, ie full payload in the caravan and zero payload in the car regardless of how much you actually take - it uses the worst case, ie heaviest caravan with lightest car. You can't "adjust" the Towing Ratio by reducing your payload.

Your car/caravan will have a Towing Ratio of 94%, end of - in reality you should be asking whether that ratio is acceptable for a beginner - personally I think it's on the high side.

 

[Saxo Appeal]

The calculation uses the MTPLM, ie full payload in the caravan and zero payload in the car regardless of how much you actually take - it uses the worst case, ie heaviest caravan with lightest car. You can't "adjust" the Towing Ratio by reducing your payload.

Your car/caravan will have a Towing Ratio of 94%, end of - in reality you should be asking whether that ratio is acceptable for a beginner - personally I think it's on the high side.

So the 2118 is without passengers. suitcases, awning and fuel and bits and bobs?

In theory that would increase to possibly 2300+ give or take, which would make the recommended % improve?

 

[Saxo Appeal]

I'd ignore the 85% rule tbh. It doesn't really make sense once you tow some different stuff and realise that +- 100 kg makes no discernible difference to handling if -

Your vehicle has sufficient power
Your vehicle has good brakes
You don't poorly load them

Thanks,

I don't think there will be much more going into the caravan apart from all the bedding, pots pans and cutlery, some food, toys and board games etc.

 

[RogerL]

So the 2118 is without passengers. suitcases, awning and fuel and bits and bobs?

In theory that would increase to possibly 2300+ give or take, which would make the recommended % improve?

The actual ratio is always lower than the NCC Towing Ratio - no-one has published a guideline for the actual ratio so it can't be used in a numeric way.

The only way to change the NCC Towing Ratio is to change the car or caravan.

 

[Buckman]

So the 2118 is without passengers. suitcases, awning and fuel and bits and bobs?

In theory that would increase to possibly 2300+ give or take, which would make the recommended % improve?

I would ignore the outdated 85% guideline as that was thought up for cars way back in the early 20th century. Your vehicle is more than capable of handling the 2000kg caravan safely. Just take it easy on the first couple of tows until you get used to towing a large caravan.

 

[Saxo Appeal]

I would ignore the outdated 85% guideline as that was thought up for cars way back in the early 20th century. Your vehicle is more than capable of handling the 2000kg caravan safely. Just take it easy on the first couple of tows until you get used to towing a large caravan.

Ok thank you bud

 

[Buckman]

Thanks,

I don't think there will be much more going into the caravan apart from all the bedding, pots pans and cutlery, some food, toys and board games etc.

Don't worry as by the time you finished loading there will be a lot more stuff like TV, battery, aquarolls etc that eat into your payload.

 

[Saxo Appeal]

Don't worry as by the time you finished loading there will be a lot more stuff like TV, battery, aquarolls etc that eat into your payload.

Well what we have at present counted for is:
AWD Powrtouch Motor Movers - 70kg
2 x TV's total 6.4kg
Caravan Battery - 20kg
Maxview Wifi - 1kg
Specialised Cover - 2kg
A/C Truman - 28kg

This is not including the weights for the Aquaroll, Wastemaster, Mains wire, Pump hose, chairs etc

I'm quite possibly looking int this too deep, but because I'm a novice it's all new and don't want to mess up

 

[Hutch]

Don't worry as by the time you finished loading there will be a lot more stuff like TV, battery, aquarolls etc that eat into your payload.

Also your car will probably never be at its kerb weight, towbar , +35 kg maybe, 1/4 tank of fuel , +30 kg, , bits and pieces another +20 kg, so you could probably use kerb weight plus 100 kg for calculating.

 

[Buckman]

Well what we have at present counted for is:
AWD Powrtouch Motor Movers - 70kg
2 x TV's total 6.4kg
Caravan Battery - 20kg
Maxview Wifi - 1kg
Specialised Cover - 2kg
A/C Truman - 28kg

This is not including the weights for the Aquaroll, Wastemaster, Mains wire, Pump hose, chairs etc

I'm quite possibly looking int this too deep, but because I'm a novice it's all new and don't want to mess up

Ask away as one of the ways to gain knowledge. I think that your battery will be closer to +25kg and not 20kg? We have the AWD auto engage Powertouch and it weighs 65kg. Our Truma Comfort a/c is 32kg. Specialised cover Elite is +5kg.

If the caravan has an onboard tank the wastemaster is included in the MIRO same as water pump, mains wire and steps. You are also allowed up to 20kg of gas in the MIRO of many, but not all twin axle caravans fitted with the gas autochange.

 

[Saxo Appeal]

Yes Buckman it has an onboard tank, and also we are advised a gas bottle at 20kg is included in the MRO

I think the car will be even more that what you suggest Hutch

Car 2118 unladen
Myself and partner 95kg and 80kg.... before anyone asks, I'm the fatty
2 x Kids probably 60kg combined
Suitcases 20kg + 10kg
An awning when purchased at a later date,
bits an bobs
Plus fuel

Am I now nearing the Max Tow KG of 2400?

 

[Buckman]

Yes Buckman it has an onboard tank, and also we are advised a gas bottle at 20kg is included in the MRO

I think the car will be even more that what you suggest Hutch

Car 2118 unladen
Myself and partner 95kg and 80kg.... before anyone asks, I'm the fatty
2 x Kids probably 60kg combined
Suitcases 20kg + 10kg
An awning when purchased at a later date,
bits an bobs
Plus fuel

Am I now nearing the Max Tow KG of 2400?

We carried our awning, windbreaks etc in a roof box on the car. The gross weight of the vehicle is 2625kg so you still have room for the kitchen sink and can load up to that amount if necessary. The towing limit has nothing to do with the gross weight of the car in the sense above.

 

[shouldknowbettor]

I don't think there will be much more going into the caravan apart from all the bedding, pots pans and cutlery, some food, toys and board games etc.

Over time it will creep. You'll get an awning, some outdoor chairs and a table, some other stuff...

But don't sweat it, honestly this country is obsessed with towing weights for no good reason I can see. It's actually hard to buy a modern car that couldn't tow well if it has enough grunt nowadays. The servo brakes, power steering and coil spring suspension makes for a very different car than when the weight limits first came about. Add to that ATC or anti sway hitches (Personally I have never had an issue with the friction style hitch).

Yes a big van will push you about a bit more but 15% isn't enough to make a good tow bad.

 

[Saxo Appeal]

Maybe its about time that 85% recommendation is updated for the 21st Century

Once again thanks to everyone for this help, my stress level has lowered again.

 

[Raywood]

The 85% figure is based on old research and personally I would not regard going a bit over this as a problem. Twin axle models tend to be a bit more stable which helps. You do have to ignore the passengers and kit when doing the calculation although you can add 75 kg for the driver and some luggage if this is not in the manufacturers figure. The towing ratio is on the high side but I think should be manageable with care but I would try to keep it lower if you can.
Do not travel with the water tank full. Water moving in these can unbalance the caravan in some circumstances, particularly if you have to swerve for any reason and will use fuel,, although I doubt you would notice that.
The towing performance of both cars and caravans is pretty good these days so although you need to take more care when towing it is not the big deal many think. Excessive speeding, bad loading and poor maintenance are probably the main reason for problems so avoid that.
Do remember that the nose weight being correct is a legal requirement and is the lower of the cars upper limit, the tow bars limit or the caravan hitch limit. You can buy gauges to check this or simply use bathroom scales with a length of wood from them to the hitch at the correct height to check.

 

[shouldknowbettor]

Maybe its about time that 85% recommendation is updated for the 21st Century

Quite. The whole concept is flawed from the outset as it proposes theres a novice versus expert split. What makes you an expert? Some people will have been caravanning 20 years and only towed their van 20 times, others will achieve that in a year. Where's the cut off? Do you go out a buy a new caravan just because you towed 5 times? Are they going to send you a blue peter badge to go with it?

Add to that the variation in people's skill in driving and towing, and you quickly get to the point where you realise that actually, most people can tow just fine at 100+ % from the outset, and there's a subset of people who can't. Some of them will just need time and practice at their own pace but in reality may never be happy towing a large caravan (note not heavy but the two are analagous generally), and some just shouldn't be doing it at all.

 

[ProfJohnL]

The 85% figure is based on old research ...

Despite my own research (which is ongoing) I have found no evidence either in public records, or from industrial contacts of the present or any previous tow ratio advice being based on any rigorous research of road incidents or evidence. Nothing about how, why or who decided on the advisory figures.

Its an information black hole, and no one seems to wish to take ownership or to explain the method used to establish the advice.

I do endorse the principle of keeping trailer weights as small as possible, but I have no confidence the widely spread advice as to the veracity of the chosen values (85 and 100%)

 

[Lutz]

Have you checked whether the MIRO of your caravan corresponds to its actual unladen weight? I ask because you are adding quite a lot of payload on the assumption that it is. That is risky because you should be aware that MIRO is a generic value that applies only to the caravan that the manufacturer submitted for type approval. It does not apply specifically to your particular caravan. Especially if there is some doubt whether your payload margin is enough you should always have your caravan weighed empty as you could otherwise be in for an unpleasant surprise. I have come across quite significant differences between MIRO and actual unladen weight and the actual value has always been greater.

 

[Dustydog]

Ah, The Holy Grail Prof😉.
The only time I ever came across “85%” was in a copy of En Route circa 1978 when I started tugging.
This link is fascinating. You May recognise some of the authors🤪

The 85% "Rule" What are the FACTS behind it

Yesss, that thorney old one again!!! I think we are all aware of the "Recommendation" about any trailers gross weight should not exceed 85% of the towing vehicles kerb-weight (which is never listed anywhere) I am curious to know who first came up with what is now almost considered (by some) to be...

www.caravantalk.co.uk

 

[RogerL]

Ah, The Holy Grail Prof😉.
The only time I ever came across “85%” was in a copy of En Route circa 1978 when I started tugging.
This link is fascinating. You May recognise some of the authors🤪

The 85% "Rule" What are the FACTS behind it

Yesss, that thorney old one again!!! I think we are all aware of the "Recommendation" about any trailers gross weight should not exceed 85% of the towing vehicles kerb-weight (which is never listed anywhere) I am curious to know who first came up with what is now almost considered (by some) to be...

www.caravantalk.co.uk

I believe the original Caravan Club recommendation was 80% for all, subsequently increased to 85% for novices and up to 100% for experienced caravanners - AFAIK it's based on a consensus of experienced caravanners.

Car manufacturers establish towing limits to limit their exposure to warraty claims from those towing heavy trailers - given that the dynamics of different trailer types are very different it cannot be assumed that towing a caravan at the car's towing limit will be safe and stable.

Those who criticise the use of the 85% recommendation for beginners are generally experienced caravanners, ie not those to whom the recommendation is aimed - in addition, offering an alternative recommendation for beginners is rarely given, implying that anything up to the car's towing limit is acceptable.

A number of contributors, including myself, drive big diesel SUVs with kerbweights around 2200-2500 kg with towing limits of 3500 kg - I wonder what advice would be given to a beginner with such a towcar.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Ah, The Holy Grail Prof😉.
The only time I ever came across “85%” was in a copy of En Route circa 1978 when I started tugging.
This link is fascinating. You May recognise some of the authors🤪

The 85% "Rule" What are the FACTS behind it

Yesss, that thorney old one again!!! I think we are all aware of the "Recommendation" about any trailers gross weight should not exceed 85% of the towing vehicles kerb-weight (which is never listed anywhere) I am curious to know who first came up with what is now almost considered (by some) to be...

www.caravantalk.co.uk

That was full of anecdotal recollections, but no hard facts, and nothing new to bring to the subject.

Yes I did see some comments form PCF members, I even think I identified one commenter who tried to hide by using a different name.