HGV E charging points

[Buckman]

If that’s how the owner wishes to use the car that is their choice, and can’t complain about being unfairly charged.

However when they bought the vehicle they were not made aware of the charge so yes it is unfair.

 

[otherclive]

However when they bought the vehicle they were not made aware of the charge so yes it is unfair.

Well, when I bought our cars I wasn’t made aware that fuel duty is going up in September 2026, December 2026 and March 2027 and thereafter by RPI. How on earth can a dealer selling cars advise the owner that Government duties will increase sometime in the future. Even Old Moore would find that one a challenge.

 

[RogerL]

However when they bought the vehicle they were not made aware of the charge so yes it is unfair.

Surely everyone who's ever bought an EV or PHEV will have realised that the low taxation won't continue for ever - none of us know what future tax/duty will be brought in.

 

[Buckman]

Surely everyone who's ever bought an EV or PHEV will have realised that the low taxation won't continue for ever - none of us know what future tax/duty will be brought in.

However it was the government that encouraged people to buy PHEVs etc. and I guess most people expected taxation on EVs, but not PHEVs as the charge could be unfair most of the time due to double taxation. People will be paying VAT on the electric kwh plus VAT on every litre purchased.

Would anyone be happy if the government decided retrospectively impose a VAT increase of 1%. on all goods bought in the past 2 years? In essence the same thing.

 

[otherclive]

However it was the government that encouraged people to buy PHEVs etc. and I guess most people expected taxation on EVs, but not PHEVs as the charge could be unfair most of the time due to double taxation. People will be paying VAT on the electric kwh plus VAT on every litre purchased.

Would anyone be happy if the government decided retrospectively impose a VAT increase of 1%. on all goods bought in the past 2 years? In essence the same thing. Sorry can't think straight at the moment as still on the floor laughing at an earlier post!

But isnt vat on electric only 5% on domestic supplies, plus owners get low hourly rates when charging on EV/PHEV tariffs at off peak hours. Although some suppliers have recently reduced the number of hours an owner can charge at low tariff rates. Not seen any complaints in that direction though. Our petrol VED increased on vehicles bought at a lower VED rate. So what’s changed?

 

[ProfJohnL]

There are many different flavours of PHEV's so some of the comments above may not be relevant to all PHEV owners.

Give the same PHEV to two different drivers and their results can be very different. There are so many variables that can play into both performance and economy of these vehicles its very difficult to make direct comparisons about tax efficiencies.

 

[ProfJohnL]

However it was the government that encouraged people to buy PHEVs etc. and I guess most people expected taxation on EVs, but not PHEVs as the charge could be unfair most of the time due to double taxation. People will be paying VAT on the electric kwh plus VAT on every litre purchased.

I don't know anyone who actively likes to pay taxes of any kind, but I have always expected the honeymoon period of low or even zero tax on some EV's to end and the tax burden begin to equalise across all types of vehicles.

PHEV's do seem to present a problem in terms of the pay per mile scheme announced by the budget, but their unique position has been recognised to some extent because the PPM charge for BEV's has been discounted to 50% for PHEV's Whether a driver can maximise that saving has to try an balance a large number of variables.

With reference to the VAT, PHEV o drivers will of course have to pay the VAT on both dino juice and the electricity they buy, but for example my PHEV has a 50L petrol tank and that provides a range of about 500 miles, and a battery of 9.9kWh which provides a range of up to 30 miles.

Would anyone be happy if the government decided retrospectively impose a VAT increase of 1%. on all goods bought in the past 2 years? In essence the same thing.

That is totally incorrect.

None of the changes made in relation to fuel duty, VED , VAT or even pay per mile are acting retrospectively. The government is not asking anyone to pay taxes on anything prior to the date of the taxes introduction. It is sadly an almost inevitable anything we do eventually attracts tax. Only very rarely does the Govmnt make such changes retrospective, and this definitely not one of them.

 

[Buckman]

That is totally incorrect.

None of the changes made in relation to fuel duty, VED , VAT or even pay per mile are acting retrospectively. The government is not asking anyone to pay taxes on anything prior to the date of the taxes introduction. It is sadly an almost inevitable anything we do eventually attracts tax. Only very rarely does the Govmnt make such changes retrospective, and this definitely not one of them.

Are you saying that the PHEV Pay per mile £0.015 tax is not a tax? If so, what is it if it is not a tax?

 

[otherclive]

Are you saying that the PHEV Pay per mile £0.015 tax is not a tax? If so, what is it if it is not a tax?

Prof was not saying it is not a tax, he is saying that it is not being levied retrospectively.

 

[Buckman]

Prof was not saying it is not a tax, he is saying that it is not being levied retrospectively.

If taking into consideration the government encouraged the purchase of PHEVs, in a way it is being levied retrospectively as it is a completely new tax and will apply to all PHEVs no matter when they were bought.

If one takes into account the extra VAT paid on the purchase of the PHEV vehicle in comparison to the equivalent ICE vehicle, the additional VAT per kwh used and the VAT on fuel, the extra VAT on the insurance premium as it is my understanding the PHEV has a higher premium than the equivalent ICE vehicle plus of course the normal VED, surely it does not make sense to buy a PHEV due to the amount of tax being paid? This is why it is so unfair on PHEV owners.

 

[otherclive]

If taking into consideration the government encouraged the purchase of PHEVs, in a way it is being levied retrospectively as it is a completely new tax and will apply to all PHEVs no matter when they were bought.

If one takes into account the extra VAT paid on the purchase of the PHEV vehicle in comparison to the equivalent ICE vehicle, the additional VAT per kwh used and the VAT on fuel, the extra VAT on the insurance premium as it is my understanding the PHEV has a higher premium than the equivalent ICE vehicle plus of course the normal VED, surely it does not make sense to buy a PHEV due to the amount of tax being paid? This is why it is so unfair on PHEV owners.

That’s doesn’t seem to be the view of members who own EV or PHEV based on their real life experiences.

 

[RogerL]

If taking into consideration the government encouraged the purchase of PHEVs, in a way it is being levied retrospectively as it is a completely new tax and will apply to all PHEVs no matter when they were bought.

If one takes into account the extra VAT paid on the purchase of the PHEV vehicle in comparison to the equivalent ICE vehicle, the additional VAT per kwh used and the VAT on fuel, the extra VAT on the insurance premium as it is my understanding the PHEV has a higher premium than the equivalent ICE vehicle plus of course the normal VED, surely it does not make sense to buy a PHEV due to the amount of tax being paid? This is why it is so unfair on PHEV owners.

PHEV owners will pay less VAT not more - the 5% VAT on their electric costs will be much lower than the 20% VAT on their fuel costs.

Your retrospective argument doesn't hold water - should I be upset because my diesel car was bought at a time when diesels were being encouraged? Of course not, so why should PHEV owners be upset that their part-time free ride is ending.

 

[Buckman]

PHEV owners will pay less VAT not more - the 5% VAT on their electric costs will be much lower than the 20% VAT on their fuel costs.

Your retrospective argument doesn't hold water - should I be upset because my diesel car was bought at a time when diesels were being encouraged? Of course not, so why should PHEV owners be upset that their part-time free ride is ending.

Weird that people are happy to pay even more tax? You are forgetting the difference paid when purchasing the PHEV. PHEV will probably cost more than the equivalent ICE vehicle. At time of purchase the PHEV buyer is paying the extra VAT due to the difference in cost. For example if the difference between the ICE and PHEV is £3k, then the VAT difference is about £600 if I have got that right. Lets not forget the additional luxury car tax if the vehicle costs more than £40k although that will apply to ICE, EV and PHEVs. The PHEV motorist is being taxed out of existence!

 

[RogerL]

Weird that people are happy to pay even more tax? You are forgetting the difference paid when purchasing the PHEV. PHEV will probably cost more than the equivalent ICE vehicle. At time of purchase the PHEV buyer is paying the extra VAT due to the difference in cost. For example if the difference between the ICE and PHEV is £3k, then the VAT difference is about £600 if I have got that right. Lets not forget the additional luxury car tax if the vehicle costs more than £40k although that will apply to ICE, EV and PHEVs. The PHEV motorist is being taxed out of existence!

The PHEV owner can always revert to pure IC when they change their car.

From a personal point of view, I'm paying a lot more VAT on fuel than most people - but I'm paying a lot less VAT and luxury car VED on car purchase costs than most people - and I recognise that paying taxes provides the services we all need - services we need more of, not less, on hospitals, policing, defence, roads, schools, etc.

 

[Buckman]

The PHEV owner can always revert to pure IC when they change their car.

From a personal point of view, I'm paying a lot more VAT on fuel than most people - but I'm paying a lot less VAT and luxury car VED on car purchase costs than most people - and I recognise that paying taxes provides the services we all need - services we need more of, not less, on hospitals, policing, defence, roads, schools, etc.

Why should the motorist be penalised with more taxes when the motorist is always at the back of the queue when it comes to handouts for road repairs etc. If more people sold their cars and started using public transport, where would that leave the government as they need to find that extra money from somewhere for hospitals etc. As a matter of interest, does anyone know how many new hospitals and schools have been built in the past 2- 3 years? How much extra has been spent on defence?

 

[RogerL]

Why should the motorist be penalised with more taxes when the motorist is always at the back of the queue when it comes to handouts for road repairs etc. If more people sold their cars and started using public transport, where would that leave the government as they need to find that extra money from somewhere for hospitals etc. As a matter of interest, does anyone know how many new hospitals and schools have been built in the past 2- 3 years? How much extra has been spent on defence?

Public spending, in real terms, has been repeatedly cut by successive governments - I don't think motorists are being penalised any more than other groups.

 

[otherclive]

Why should the motorist be penalised with more taxes when the motorist is always at the back of the queue when it comes to handouts for road repairs etc. If more people sold their cars and started using public transport, where would that leave the government as they need to find that extra money from somewhere for hospitals etc. As a matter of interest, does anyone know how many new hospitals and schools have been built in the past 2- 3 years? How much extra has been spent on defence?

I think we were promised 40 new hospitals and 8 nuclear power stations by 2030 not so long ago. Wonder where that fantasy originated?

 

[ProfJohnL]

If taking into consideration the government encouraged the purchase of PHEVs, in a way it is being levied retrospectively as it is a completely new tax and will apply to all PHEVs no matter when they were bought.

If one takes into account the extra VAT paid on the purchase of the PHEV vehicle in comparison to the equivalent ICE vehicle, the additional VAT per kwh used and the VAT on fuel, the extra VAT on the insurance premium as it is my understanding the PHEV has a higher premium than the equivalent ICE vehicle plus of course the normal VED, surely it does not make sense to buy a PHEV due to the amount of tax being paid? This is why it is so unfair on PHEV owners.

No one has paid any "extra" VAT. the VAT paid is proportional to the sale price of car or fuel, and the choice of car is at the discretion of the buyer.

None of the taxation discussed in this thread is or will be in any way "retrospective".

 

[Buckman]

I think some need to wake up and see the real world! Sadly moderators do not like my sense of humour and deleted my originals post as laughter is offensive on the forum.

 

[otherclive]

Public spending, in real terms, has been repeatedly cut by successive governments - I don't think motorists are being penalised any more than other groups.

No one has paid any "extra" VAT. the VAT paid is proportional to the sale price of car or fuel, and the choice of car is at the discretion of the buyer.

None of the taxation discussed in this thread is or will be in any way "retrospective".

I think some need to wake up and see the real world! Sadly moderators do not like my sense of humour and deleted my originals post as laughter is offensive on the forum.

I think that’s an uncalled for slur on our two excellent moderators who have the difficult job of deciding when a post(s) may have gone beyond the acceptable, and then endeavouring to gently steer the thread back on track with gentle reminders rather than a heavy hand.

 

[Buckman]

I think that’s an uncalled for slur on our two excellent moderators who have the difficult job of deciding when a post(s) may have gone beyond the acceptable, and then endeavouring to gently steer the thread back on track with gentle reminders rather than a heavy hand.

Not sure how any one in the wildest dreams would think my post was a slur on their capabilities? I am quite sure that the moderators are quite capable of pulling anyone up if the post is objectionable and it is not up to another poster to step in on their behalf!

 

[Mel]

I think some need to wake up and see the real world! Sadly moderators do not like my sense of humour and deleted my originals post as laughter is offensive on the forum.

Buckman. My comments to you have been made by DM, not on the open forum. However, if you wish to bring this to an open forum discussion then I will clearly reply.
Your sense of humour, as you put it involves derisively laughing at the comments of others in a clear attempt to belittle the opinions of others.
This is unkind, uncalled for and completely unnecessary. I have asked you politely on more than one occasion to moderate this behaviour. This has sadly made no impact on your comments to the extent that you now wish to have the argument on an open forum.
I am asking you again to cut the derisory laughter at posts where you disagree with the opinions of others.
I am locking this thread. If you wish to continue the discussion with me, you can do me the courtesy of a Direct message.
Mel