I have a "Relaxed Axle"

[RayS]

While - i hope - i do not have a problem at present, this thread has reminded me of a niggling concern I've had for some years about the transverse loading of caravans.

It seems to me that many designs have the bulk of the ex works weight and the overall weight when loaded on the UK offside of the van.

Typically Heater (eg Combi) fridge cooker microwave toilet, whereas the NS has seating door, more seating bed shower. Now the fridge is likely to be loaded, pots and pans are likely to be under the cooker etc.

Some makes do have fridge on NS which should help. Gas bottles are usually centralised if in front locker but in some makes are amidship in OS making matters worse.

The only tyre failure i've ever had was on the OS - I wonder if this is the experience of others ?
I know there are caravan with NS kitchens - I've had some - but this layout seems to be increasingly rare.

 

[otherclive]

While - i hope - i do not have a problem at present, this thread has reminded me of a niggling concern I've had for some years about the transverse loading of caravans.

It seems to me that many designs have the bulk of the ex works weight and the overall weight when loaded on the UK offside of the van.

Typically Heater (eg Combi) fridge cooker microwave toilet, whereas the NS has seating door, more seating bed shower. Now the fridge is likely to be loaded, pots and pans are likely to be under the cooker etc.

Some makes do have fridge on NS which should help. Gas bottles are usually centralised if in front locker but in some makes are amidship in OS making matters worse.

The only tyre failure i've ever had was on the OS - I wonder if this is the experience of others ?
I know there are caravan with NS kitchens - I've had some - but this layout seems to be increasingly rare.

With Swift they maintain that their caravans have asymmetric transverse loading within the range 45:55. On my van that could equate to 112 kg variation in the worse case at MRO But the tyre loading index is the same for both sides so if the worst case MRO asymmetric loading did occur the off side tyre would be closer to its limit. Add another 21kg battery to the offside and fridge contents and something in the wardrobe and I guess the offside tyre could be on or above it’s LI. But the tyres are quality Hankooks rated for White Van Man at far higher speeds than the caravan goes and regularly having WVM bouncing into and into kerbs. But WVM does have infinitely superior suspension than is afforded to me courtesy of Alko.

 

[Gafferbill]

........yesterday I checked my caravan tyres which I know are due to be replaced.
Wasn't unduly worried as they have good tread and no cracking (Hankook RA08)
I always store my caravan on hard standing at home with the wheels just off the ground on scissor jacks.
My checks just before a trip is to get down and do a thorough inspection by slowly rotating the wheels by hand.

The tyres looked fine.........that is until I rotated the offside wheel.....one area of the tread was catching on the ground.
Discovered a bulge in the tread (not the tyre walls) .....very difficult to see that problem by any other method!!

IMO that tyre would have burst next trip hmy:

 

[otherclive]

I have been looking at Western Towing website. They see a range of different Alko axles for a range of loadings. I need to get underneath the caravan to check the exact specification number off mine, but WT have one in the range 1001-1300kg. However, the next range up is 1301-1500kg and checking the dimensions all specified dimensions are identical between the lower and higher rated units. The only difference being that the 1001-1300kg weighs 47kg whilst the 1301-1500kg weighs 53 kg and costs £449 cf £399 for the 1001-1300kg unit. I plan to crawl under the caravan tomorrow to get the tally plate details of my axle.

Wonder what the legality of installing a higher rated axle would be given my locker tally plate species 1300kg? Ride should be okay as the higher rated unit is specified for my MTPLM + 1kg.

 

[ProfJohnL]

...

Wonder what the legality of installing a higher rated axle would be given my locker tally plate species 1300kg? Ride should be okay as the higher rated unit is specified for my MTPLM + 1kg.

Like cars, Caravans are type approved, so changing the specification of an axle unit will mean it is no longer type approved. I'm not aware of how or if and to whom such a change would need to be reported in the UK, but elsewhere in Europe where caravans carry their own registration, it might make the caravan illegal.

 

[otherclive]

...

Wonder what the legality of installing a higher rated axle would be given my locker tally plate species 1300kg? Ride should be okay as the higher rated unit is specified for my MTPLM + 1kg.

Like cars, Caravans are type approved, so changing the specification of an axle unit will mean it is no longer type approved. I'm not aware of how or if and to whom such a change would need to be reported in the UK, but elsewhere in Europe where caravans carry their own registration, it might make the caravan illegal.

Yes but people modify cars suspensions and tend only to notify their insurers. I raised my Mitsubishi a good 4 inches, and this Skoda has auxiliary rear springs fitted. But I understand where you are coming from although I wouldn't seek to change the locker tally plate or take my loading above MTPLM of 1300kg. If the higher rated axle were physically interchangeable i doubt any workshop would be prepared to do the work on the grounds you propose and its not the sort of DIY task I would do these days in the event I finished up with a bent caravan!

 

[fj]

I read the post on relaxed axle and the legal case referred to

I now am thoroughly confused, I thought I understood it but now I do not

The Maximum Technically Permissible Laden Mass must not be exceeded for towing the van legally on the road.

Overloading can also invalidate the warranty on the caravan chassis ( axle. )

The problem I have ,which was mentioned in passing in the legal case but not fully developed , is

Am I allowed for warranty purposes to exceed the MTPLM when living and sleeping in the caravan ?

Four people could weigh about 340 kg and if the caravan and its contents were say 1300kg ( its MTPLM ) the people represent a considerable overload situation .

If the axle is so delicate as to be damaged by as little as 90kg overload . It would surely collapse completely with 340 kg extra

What happens when entertaining friends in the evening when even more people are in the caravan

Does the MTPLM really mean what it says . The maximum permissible load. If so, must we remove enough mass from the caravan to ensure it does not weigh more than that with people in it.

I have a two berth caravan should I allow four people to get in it ?
I suspect that the unladen ( empty ) weight of the two berth caravan plus four people will exceed the MTPLM The steadies are supposed to steady the caravan are they also expected to carry some of the weight when the caravan is in use .
We sit in mine having a coffee break in service area s without putting the steadies down, am I damaging the axle ? Am I putting the warranty at risk ?

What is the maximum mass the caravan can be expected to cope with whilst pitched before damaging the axle and the chassis ? Does anyone know? Should the manufacturer tell us?

Public lifts display a notice giving the maximum number of people allowed to be in them
Why not the same for caravans ?

 

[otherclive]

People living in the van are okay as the steadies are down as is the nosewheel which will take most of the weight if you have a front lounge. Sleeping and living people tend to be distributed around. It’s the dynamic loads on the suspension that cause the major stress. Read the Bath University report by Lewis it’s in a link from Dustydog above. It shows a 30 year old Sprite with worn suspension performs better than a new Baileyvwith Alko. The suspension design is inherently poor.

 

[Gafferbill]

...........I do wonder if a simple lightweight easily maintained well proven caravan axle specifically designed to carry weight should have high torque motors fitted to each wheel :huh:

There has been instances of jockey wheels and their mountings being bent and damaged by the use of movers so they must be capable of applying considerable force.
I have witnessed users manoeuvring on pitches trying to bump up over kerbs and pondered whether they were wise to do so.

........just a thought

 

[otherclive]

This is what my offside suspension unit looks like. Very relaxed!

 

[otherclive]

Ive been trying to get a price for a replacement axle from Western Towing but Alko in their wisdom have seen fit to position the axle identification sticker not on the flat rear surface of the axle, but partly curved onto the top of the axle. Guess what even with part number and bar code showing at the bottom of the plate (and photographed) there a key bit of info that is required and that is on the top of the sticker plate which is curved over the top of the axle. Neigh on impossible to get a lens to focus between the floor and axle top surface. Is it a strategy to force one back to main dealers? Ah well out with the mirrors and camera.. ands squeeze underneath the "beast"

 

[Dustydog]

Clive.
Why do you have to quote the spec?
Surely good old Swift could , should , must give you the official spec?
Once armed with the official spec can you upgrade to the next load?
I doubt there will be much difference in price.

 

[otherclive]

Clive.
Why do you have to quote the spec?
Surely good old Swift could , should , must give you the official spec?
Once armed with the official spec can you upgrade to the next load?
I doubt there will be much difference in price.

Only £50 extra for the 1301-1500 kg £450 ex vat. and 6kg heavier. Will talk to Swift to see what they say. I’ve gone through the build docs and it doesn’t give the axle spec.

 

[Dustydog]

Clive.
Why do you have to quote the spec?
Surely good old Swift could , should , must give you the official spec?
Once armed with the official spec can you upgrade to the next load?
I doubt there will be much difference in price.

Only £50 extra for the 1301-1500 kg £450 ex vat. and 6kg heavier. Will talk to Swift to see what they say. I’ve gone through the build docs and it doesn’t give the axle spec.

I’d over engineer and go for the upgrade. B)

 

[otherclive]

Clive.
Why do you have to quote the spec?
Surely good old Swift could , should , must give you the official spec?
Once armed with the official spec can you upgrade to the next load?
I doubt there will be much difference in price.

Only £50 extra for the 1301-1500 kg £450 ex vat. and 6kg heavier. Will talk to Swift to see what they say. I’ve gone through the build docs and it doesn’t give the axle spec.

I’d over engineer and go for the upgrade. B)

I have sent Swift all of the details by email. They are normally pretty quick in coming back.

 

[otherclive]

Reply, look in Owners Manual, look at front tally plate in locker, or contact Alko. So the Design Authority for the caravan can’t advise axle model/type number. The OM and locker tally plate just say 1300 kg. Well I’d figured that one out by getting under the van and eyeballing the axle. Back to the fray!

 

[otherclive]

Reply, look in Owners Manual, look at front tally plate in locker, or contact Alko. So the Design Authority for the caravan can’t advise axle model/type number. The OM and locker tally plate just say 1300 kg. Well I’d figured that one out by getting under the van and eyeballing the axle. Back to the fray!

 

[Dustydog]

So helpful.
Assuming the next model up at an extra £50 is the same fitting dimension I’d go for that unless you opt for the repair

 

[otherclive]

So helpful.
Assuming the next model up at an extra £50 is the same fitting dimension I’d go for that unless you opt for the repair

Western Towings website it shows the key dimensions to be the same, but the problems thus far is that neither WT or Swift can confirm the exact model number of the axle fitted to my caravan. WA would be able to proceed via Alko but the difficulty of getting a photo of the tally plate part of which is affixed to the curved section of the axle means that they cannot identify mine precisely. Alko are on holiday at present.

I am preferring a new axle as the reconditioned approach still gives me rubber "sausages in an Alko tube, and I can't see that Fraser Browns rubber would really be any different to Alko's rubber. Although FB give a two year warranty if there is a problem then I would probably have to pay again for the axle to be returned, repaired and refitted as it is me the that would be asking the fitting centre to fit a FB unit. I am going to squirm underneath this afternoon with a borrowed camera that is reported to go down to 2 inch focus. It has to be a small camera as space is so tight. In the meantime in less than 30 minutes i have booked four days in Paris, Eurostar, travel insurance and Eiffel tower tickets and printed everything off. Who said caravans are relaxing

 

[Dustydog]

So helpful.
Assuming the next model up at an extra £50 is the same fitting dimension I’d go for that unless you opt for the repair

Western Towings website it shows the key dimensions to be the same, but the problems thus far is that neither WT or Swift can confirm the exact model number of the axle fitted to my caravan. WA would be able to proceed via Alko but the difficulty of getting a photo of the tally plate part of which is affixed to the curved section of the axle means that they cannot identify mine precisely. Alko are on holiday at present.
I am preferring a new axle as the reconditioned approach still gives me rubber "sausages in an Alko tube, and I can't see that Fraser Browns rubber would really be any different to Alko's rubber. Although FB give a two year warranty if there is a problem then I would probably have to pay again for the axle to be returned, repaired and refitted as it is me the that would be asking the fitting centre to fit a FB unit. I am going to squirm underneath this afternoon with a borrowed camera that is reported to go down to 2 inch focus. It has to be a small camera as space is so tight. In the meantime in less than 30 minutes i have booked four days in Paris, Eurostar, travel insurance and Eiffel tower tickets and printed everything off. Who said caravans are relaxing

OMG!
Going native and giving up the caravan mon ami :woohoo:

 

[otherclive]

So helpful.
Assuming the next model up at an extra £50 is the same fitting dimension I’d go for that unless you opt for the repair

Western Towings website it shows the key dimensions to be the same, but the problems thus far is that neither WT or Swift can confirm the exact model number of the axle fitted to my caravan. WA would be able to proceed via Alko but the difficulty of getting a photo of the tally plate part of which is affixed to the curved section of the axle means that they cannot identify mine precisely. Alko are on holiday at present.
I am preferring a new axle as the reconditioned approach still gives me rubber "sausages in an Alko tube, and I can't see that Fraser Browns rubber would really be any different to Alko's rubber. Although FB give a two year warranty if there is a problem then I would probably have to pay again for the axle to be returned, repaired and refitted as it is me the that would be asking the fitting centre to fit a FB unit. I am going to squirm underneath this afternoon with a borrowed camera that is reported to go down to 2 inch focus. It has to be a small camera as space is so tight. In the meantime in less than 30 minutes i have booked four days in Paris, Eurostar, travel insurance and Eiffel tower tickets and printed everything off. Who said caravans are relaxing

OMG!
Going native and giving up the caravan mon ami :woohoo:

Mais oui Easier to get a short notice break in Paris than a site in UK! The French are all down south too.

 

[otherclive]

Well last week I had my normal dealer email me and ask for a photo of the axle tally plate so they could price and order a replacement. Since it’s proven impossible to get a complete photo of the tally plate I decided to again contact Swift as their first reply was to refer me to the Owners Manual, or to look at the caravan weight tally plate in the front locker. Neither was any help in identifying the axle other than to tell what I already knew, that it was 1300 kg rated. So I contacted Swift again asking could the design technical department look at the caravan design and manufacturing drawings and parts lists. The reply from Swift was that the chassis, suspension and rolling gear come from Alko. And as such Swift don’t hold the technical information. Their recommendation is to contact Alko.
I find it astonishing the a company responsible for the whole product has no information relating to one of the primary safety and functional assemblies. So much for NCC Type Approval. From Swift Groups website:

“Swift Group have an extensive billl of materials database that ensures the correct parts are ordered and available in time for the manufacturing build. It also logs and archives the parts that were used to manufacture a vehicle against its specific chassis number so any Swift Group dealer can check the exact specification used in the build for after sales orders using our comprehensive Supercare aftercare system”.

I would think Swift Group are ISO 9001 so to not be able to define the axle fitted to my caravan isn’t exactly aligned with the requirements of the system.
Uhm.

 

[Dustydog]

Well last week I had my normal dealer email me and ask for a photo of the axle tally plate so they could price and order a replacement. Since it’s proven impossible to get a complete photo of the tally plate I decided to again contact Swift as their first reply was to refer me to the Owners Manual, or to look at the caravan weight tally plate in the front locker. Neither was any help in identifying the axle other than to tell what I already knew, that it was 1300 kg rated. So I contacted Swift again asking could the design technical department look at the caravan design and manufacturing drawings and parts lists. The reply from Swift was that the chassis, suspension and rolling gear come from Alko. And as such Swift don’t hold the technical information. Their recommendation is to contact Alko.
I find it astonishing the a company responsible for the whole product has no information relating to one of the primary safety and functional assemblies. So much for NCC Type Approval. From Swift Groups website:

“Swift Group have an extensive billl of materials database that ensures the correct parts are ordered and available in time for the manufacturing build. It also logs and archives the parts that were used to manufacture a vehicle against its specific chassis number so any Swift Group dealer can check the exact specification used in the build for after sales orders using our comprehensive Supercare aftercare system”.

I would think Swift Group are ISO 9001 so to not be able to define the axle fitted to my caravan isn’t exactly aligned with the requirements of the system.
Uhm.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=UCNIDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA2001-IA8&lpg=PA2001-IA8&dq=are swift caravans iso 9001&source=bl&ots=ApCk-VzDOw&sig=xFKiM4JwkBfIBMCDz2LtAihyFl8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjcoOLHuvzcAhXHfMAKHQB4BtwQ6AEwEnoECAIQAQ#v=onepage&q=are swift caravans iso 9001&f=false
Looks to me Swift are ISO 9001 approved / rated

 

[otherclive]

Well last week I had my normal dealer email me and ask for a photo of the axle tally plate so they could price and order a replacement. Since it’s proven impossible to get a complete photo of the tally plate I decided to again contact Swift as their first reply was to refer me to the Owners Manual, or to look at the caravan weight tally plate in the front locker. Neither was any help in identifying the axle other than to tell what I already knew, that it was 1300 kg rated. So I contacted Swift again asking could the design technical department look at the caravan design and manufacturing drawings and parts lists. The reply from Swift was that the chassis, suspension and rolling gear come from Alko. And as such Swift don’t hold the technical information. Their recommendation is to contact Alko.
I find it astonishing the a company responsible for the whole product has no information relating to one of the primary safety and functional assemblies. So much for NCC Type Approval. From Swift Groups website:

“Swift Group have an extensive billl of materials database that ensures the correct parts are ordered and available in time for the manufacturing build. It also logs and archives the parts that were used to manufacture a vehicle against its specific chassis number so any Swift Group dealer can check the exact specification used in the build for after sales orders using our comprehensive Supercare aftercare system”.

I would think Swift Group are ISO 9001 so to not be able to define the axle fitted to my caravan isn’t exactly aligned with the requirements of the system.
Uhm.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=UCNIDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA2001-IA8&lpg=PA2001-IA8&dq=are swift caravans iso 9001&source=bl&ots=ApCk-VzDOw&sig=xFKiM4JwkBfIBMCDz2LtAihyFl8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjcoOLHuvzcAhXHfMAKHQB4BtwQ6AEwEnoECAIQAQ#v=onepage&q=are swift caravans iso 9001&f=false
Looks to me Swift are ISO 9001 approved / rated

Dusty
You are correct and I’ve just reminded Swift of the above statement re their configuration records and their ISO status. I have asked for my query to be referred to the QA Manager responsible. Watch this space.

 

[Dustydog]

That said Clive
As you are paying a very hefty bill here why not go ahead with the upgraded axle , over engineered