If people really wanted to be energy efficient and environmentally friendly they would bring back the Trams and Electric vehicles for town and local community work. IMHO
Agreed Shiraz
Where I live there used to be a railway that conected all the local villages and towns. Vandelised by Beeching.
When you look at the network that was destroyed it now seems criminal as my journeys would not need a car at all if it was all still in place!
Thales, a large corporation (but you probably haven't heared of them)run their petrol vehicles on LPG too Clive. I used it over 20 years ago in a converted Opel Rekord 1.9L. The UK has a lot of catching up to do.
600 miles on just over 13 gallons - sorry too old for litres! = circa 45 mpg - about right for a diesel.
This would have cost you about
Hi Clive,
Afraid so, apart from the usual differences between refineries - different crude oil feedstock from different oil wells - different refinery processing technology - the only real differences are the two "duty" markers added to red diesel.
One of the issues we are addressing at CEN CT19 is a replacement for the red dye which will be more difficult to "strip" from diesel. Once the red dye has been stripped standard laboratory instrumentation can't tell the difference, except by looking for the "hidden" marker that's always there.
Diesel adulteration and stripping of red diesel is very attractive to the "crims" throughout Europe, because stripped red diesel is diesel, there is a verylarge market and there's loads of money to be made by stealing the tax and duty revenues.
This whole area of diesel adulteration and the actions to counter it makes a fantastic story.
Performance Diesel:
There are several, typified by Shell V-Power diesel and BP Performance Diesel, which are synthetic diesel fuels made polymerising the hydrocarbon gas Ethane. If you join two Ethane molecules together you have Butane (blue bottle camping gas), join another seven molecules and you have Cetane.
This synthesised diesel costs a bit more to make than simply collecting the diesel fraction from crude oil, but you can make this fuel from natural gas, coal, wood, vegetation, waste, etc.
If you know bio-diesel, where vegetable oil from the plants' seeds is chemically processed to make this renewable fuel, then this new process can use the whole of the plant to make high performance diesel.
Shell have just brought the first "wood chip into performance diesel" refinery on-line in Germany - the BP and Shell performance diesels that you can buy in the UK today are made from the Ethane fraction of Natural Gas.
Expect to see this "carbon neutral" and other renewable bio-fuel technology attract a series of tax breaks that you saw with LPG.
Why are they performance diesels? Normal diesel has a cetane number of 55, performance diesel is around 60 - and if your car can "re-tune" itself and make use of this, then great - my C270 sees about a 10 bhp increase running on V-Power.
Even if your diesel engine cannot "re-tune" itself, then the soot (PM10 particulates) will drop to around 50% and you should see an improvement in fuel consumption of around 3% to 5%.
Robert
Afraid so, apart from the usual differences between refineries - different crude oil feedstock from different oil wells - different refinery processing technology - the only real differences are the two "duty" markers added to red diesel.
One of the issues we are addressing at CEN CT19 is a replacement for the red dye which will be more difficult to "strip" from diesel. Once the red dye has been stripped standard laboratory instrumentation can't tell the difference, except by looking for the "hidden" marker that's always there.
Diesel adulteration and stripping of red diesel is very attractive to the "crims" throughout Europe, because stripped red diesel is diesel, there is a verylarge market and there's loads of money to be made by stealing the tax and duty revenues.
This whole area of diesel adulteration and the actions to counter it makes a fantastic story.
Performance Diesel:
There are several, typified by Shell V-Power diesel and BP Performance Diesel, which are synthetic diesel fuels made polymerising the hydrocarbon gas Ethane. If you join two Ethane molecules together you have Butane (blue bottle camping gas), join another seven molecules and you have Cetane.
This synthesised diesel costs a bit more to make than simply collecting the diesel fraction from crude oil, but you can make this fuel from natural gas, coal, wood, vegetation, waste, etc.
If you know bio-diesel, where vegetable oil from the plants' seeds is chemically processed to make this renewable fuel, then this new process can use the whole of the plant to make high performance diesel.
Shell have just brought the first "wood chip into performance diesel" refinery on-line in Germany - the BP and Shell performance diesels that you can buy in the UK today are made from the Ethane fraction of Natural Gas.
Expect to see this "carbon neutral" and other renewable bio-fuel technology attract a series of tax breaks that you saw with LPG.
Why are they performance diesels? Normal diesel has a cetane number of 55, performance diesel is around 60 - and if your car can "re-tune" itself and make use of this, then great - my C270 sees about a 10 bhp increase running on V-Power.
Even if your diesel engine cannot "re-tune" itself, then the soot (PM10 particulates) will drop to around 50% and you should see an improvement in fuel consumption of around 3% to 5%.
Robert
Thanks for that Robert - maybe it is the performance diesels that have the additives I have read about - certainly methane ethane, propane or butane would provide the extra "oomph" but as you say - its not until you get to 4C that you could get the stuff to stay in the tank!
After all LPG was "discovered" all those years ago by a guy who got hacked off buying a gallon of petrol only to find a third of it gone after a few days. The more volatile CH4's having gone their own way.
Still do not understand why you state that LPG is only 90 octane when from your own statement Butane (C4H10) is used to boost performance diesel - Butane and Propane (C3H8) are a major constituent of LPG - how would adding a low octane molecule(s) boost performance?
Anyway - even if you forget the calorific and octane ratings - just look at the cost! If we use Monkeys Husband's example of 600 miles on just over 13 gallons of diesel - sorry too old for litres! = circa 45 mpg - about right for a diesel.
This would have cost about
After all LPG was "discovered" all those years ago by a guy who got hacked off buying a gallon of petrol only to find a third of it gone after a few days. The more volatile CH4's having gone their own way.
Still do not understand why you state that LPG is only 90 octane when from your own statement Butane (C4H10) is used to boost performance diesel - Butane and Propane (C3H8) are a major constituent of LPG - how would adding a low octane molecule(s) boost performance?
Anyway - even if you forget the calorific and octane ratings - just look at the cost! If we use Monkeys Husband's example of 600 miles on just over 13 gallons of diesel - sorry too old for litres! = circa 45 mpg - about right for a diesel.
This would have cost about
Sorry Clive, a slight misunderstanding.
The performance diesel is made from Ethane, a simple hydrocarbon with 2 carbon atoms like this C-C, by joining them together in the refinery until they get to Cetane, which looks like C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C (if that's 16 in a line)
So there is no raw ethane or butane in the diesel, it's all been made into a perfect length chain for the diesel engine to burn.
And sorry again, they are all fossil fuels, and LPG is only intermediate between Petrol (worse) and Diesel (best) in terms of CO2 emissions.
With today's tax regime, LPG is cheap and will stay that way for some time, but over the coming years the tax benefits will gradually be transfered to bio-fuels.
One of the reasons why LPG was promoted by EU governments in the 90's, and not so much anymore, is that there is little difference between 2006 Euro IV engines in terms of other pollutants - irrespective of the fuel.
Robert
The performance diesel is made from Ethane, a simple hydrocarbon with 2 carbon atoms like this C-C, by joining them together in the refinery until they get to Cetane, which looks like C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C (if that's 16 in a line)
So there is no raw ethane or butane in the diesel, it's all been made into a perfect length chain for the diesel engine to burn.
And sorry again, they are all fossil fuels, and LPG is only intermediate between Petrol (worse) and Diesel (best) in terms of CO2 emissions.
With today's tax regime, LPG is cheap and will stay that way for some time, but over the coming years the tax benefits will gradually be transfered to bio-fuels.
One of the reasons why LPG was promoted by EU governments in the 90's, and not so much anymore, is that there is little difference between 2006 Euro IV engines in terms of other pollutants - irrespective of the fuel.
Robert
so clive am i still wrong with my simplistic approach, or do
you now except what i said concerning co and co2.
you now except what i said concerning co and co2.
Clive there you go again using you abacus rather than a calculator divide 50 by 4.55 and it comes out at 10.9 not 13!! So you owe me another 100 miles plus; but as you say maths isn't your thing. Come to think of it the Volvo S40 does 22 mpg on LPG, 32mpg on Petrol and 55 on diesel mpg according to my manual . oh well it's only money
As for respected source well I take my membership of four professionals bodies and a 2.1 degree in Transport and Logistics as being reasonably well read, coupled with working for company's such as TNT, British airways and Tesco's in Fleet management.
The thing is every large user and there not that large by FM standards that use LPG are guess what public bodies which we all pay into through council tax and jugging by the up-roar that most people suffered massive increases last year to pay for their poor practices and total mismanagement.
The comment about moving LPG is very valid I not talking about piddly little 7 ot 15 ltr bottles but the trucks that deliver fuel to the likes of Shell and BP stations. Owning to the flammability and instability of LPG, the tanks they use are constructed in a different way to a "petrol tanker" at present the latest designs of tanker move around 36-38000 litres at one time of petrol. The LPG tankers are lucky if they get 21,000 on board.
More over the "petrol tanker" is multi compartment for both safety and efficiency reasons so that it can deliver two or three types of petrol and the same again of diesel to the station this is a massive environmental advantage against the LPG lorry which goes from town to town dropping of a few litres here a few litres there.
By the way BA runs the majority of fleet (Airside ) on red diesel as do all the fridge wagons for Tesco's and every other supermarket run on red does it ruin a Euro 4 engine not a bit.
Clive not having a laugh having to clear up after you all the time
Monkeys husband
As for respected source well I take my membership of four professionals bodies and a 2.1 degree in Transport and Logistics as being reasonably well read, coupled with working for company's such as TNT, British airways and Tesco's in Fleet management.
The thing is every large user and there not that large by FM standards that use LPG are guess what public bodies which we all pay into through council tax and jugging by the up-roar that most people suffered massive increases last year to pay for their poor practices and total mismanagement.
The comment about moving LPG is very valid I not talking about piddly little 7 ot 15 ltr bottles but the trucks that deliver fuel to the likes of Shell and BP stations. Owning to the flammability and instability of LPG, the tanks they use are constructed in a different way to a "petrol tanker" at present the latest designs of tanker move around 36-38000 litres at one time of petrol. The LPG tankers are lucky if they get 21,000 on board.
More over the "petrol tanker" is multi compartment for both safety and efficiency reasons so that it can deliver two or three types of petrol and the same again of diesel to the station this is a massive environmental advantage against the LPG lorry which goes from town to town dropping of a few litres here a few litres there.
By the way BA runs the majority of fleet (Airside ) on red diesel as do all the fridge wagons for Tesco's and every other supermarket run on red does it ruin a Euro 4 engine not a bit.
Clive not having a laugh having to clear up after you all the time
Monkeys husband
This is all quite interesting. Can we grow enough crops to make bio diesel a fuel we can become reliant on, perhaps even self-sufficient?
Can we refine this fuel to use as a petrol replacement or are the petrol engine's days numbered?
How are we doing for coal reserves, and can we use these (cost permitting) to supplement dwindling oil reserves?
Only asking, because since North Sea oil was discovered and supposedly the UK became self reliant, all we seem to do is shore up the economies of major oil exporting countries. Little bit like being held to ransom, isn't it.
Can we refine this fuel to use as a petrol replacement or are the petrol engine's days numbered?
How are we doing for coal reserves, and can we use these (cost permitting) to supplement dwindling oil reserves?
Only asking, because since North Sea oil was discovered and supposedly the UK became self reliant, all we seem to do is shore up the economies of major oil exporting countries. Little bit like being held to ransom, isn't it.
Oh deary deary me someone spat their dummy out again!
So lets run the figs using 4.55 L/G makes no odds because if you used 50litres to do 600 miles the cost will still be circa
So lets run the figs using 4.55 L/G makes no odds because if you used 50litres to do 600 miles the cost will still be circa
Oh! and the reference to LPG transport cost I made IS Valid because one article (from an oil company) back in the early 80's stated that LPG was far more expensive to transport and quoted amazing figures for LPG vs. Petrol.
It all fell apart for them when it was pointed out (by Calor Gas) that they had provided the figure in good faith but that about 70% of the journeys were for there wagons collecting empty and delivering full camping type cylinders!
The disparity in delivery costs was quietly dropped.
But Hey - what price the environment
Still not had an answer why the world and his wife states that LPG is higher octane rating than petrol and Rob says it isn't.
I live in hope.
It all fell apart for them when it was pointed out (by Calor Gas) that they had provided the figure in good faith but that about 70% of the journeys were for there wagons collecting empty and delivering full camping type cylinders!
The disparity in delivery costs was quietly dropped.
But Hey - what price the environment
Still not had an answer why the world and his wife states that LPG is higher octane rating than petrol and Rob says it isn't.
I live in hope.
Watch out Clive's riled,
God if you think 55-60 mpg is ambitious then you really need to get out more, there are Diesels out there approaching 100 mpg VW Lupo TDI comes to mind (well over 90 mpg). I'm not satified with 55 mpg I want a recount ,my old Punto JTD done 72 mpg in between it's trips to the garage. But hey if your satisfied with your MPG then good.
As for the comment about the GAS canister 20 plus years out of date but we not talking Butane where on LPG for Cars , it's a bit like saying Britain is beset by 3 day weeks and that BL makes the finest cars in the world when 20 years on we look to Burnaston, Washington and Swindon
Some times Clive do wonder if we are reading the same thing. Surely we don't lose it translation
Monkeys husband
God if you think 55-60 mpg is ambitious then you really need to get out more, there are Diesels out there approaching 100 mpg VW Lupo TDI comes to mind (well over 90 mpg). I'm not satified with 55 mpg I want a recount ,my old Punto JTD done 72 mpg in between it's trips to the garage. But hey if your satisfied with your MPG then good.
As for the comment about the GAS canister 20 plus years out of date but we not talking Butane where on LPG for Cars , it's a bit like saying Britain is beset by 3 day weeks and that BL makes the finest cars in the world when 20 years on we look to Burnaston, Washington and Swindon
Some times Clive do wonder if we are reading the same thing. Surely we don't lose it translation
Monkeys husband
Emerson,
Can I asked who advised to change the oil and filter change regime so radically , Land Rover ? or the maker of the LPG kit or some other body ? . Also have you changed the type of oil used different make/ rating ?
Monkeys husband
Can I asked who advised to change the oil and filter change regime so radically , Land Rover ? or the maker of the LPG kit or some other body ? . Also have you changed the type of oil used different make/ rating ?
Monkeys husband
The oil change periods were extended on the suggestion of the man who fitted my first kit (LPGa) approved. This was confirmed by the man who fitted the second kit to my present car, although he said 8000, not ten.However, the facts speak for themselves. My first LPG powered RR is still running quite happily at 126,000 now and the present one has done over 10000 in six months.I'll report back in another 4yrs to let you know wether the second car matches the first one!
Sorry, missed a bit.No, I've not changed the type of oil. I run on Duckhams mineral 20/50, but only use Land Rover's own filters.
Thanks for the info , it's interesting on some forums Duckhams gets a right pasting but in the Classic car would it's pretty much the Mobil one of it's type. I amazed at the length of service interval as most people when it gets over 100 k tend to go the other way and change the oil more often (I'm one of those) but I think you're spot on with your choice of oil anything more slippery would probably create more problems than it would solve.
Safe motoring
Monkey H
Safe motoring
Monkey H
Emmerson - like you I have done over 100K miles on LPG with no problems I tend to change the oil every 5K miles religiously - tho' some guys I know go for much longer as the oil stays so clean on LPG.
and whatever the your views - you cannot get away from the fact that when we put 50 litres of fuel in our vehicles it costs circa
and whatever the your views - you cannot get away from the fact that when we put 50 litres of fuel in our vehicles it costs circa
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