Incorrect Gas locker plate

[ProfJohnL]

A significant proportion of commercial vehicle taxes are based on the load capacity of the vehicle. Truck & trailer manufacturers tend to big trucks to carry heavy loads and the basic vehicle taxes are correspondingly large. But there are some low density products ( e.g. Expanded Polystyrene packaging) where the manufacture needs a large truck or trailer but is only using a fraction of the vehicle's weight capacity. The down plating system allows the vehicle to be mechanically capable of carrying its original rated load, but it's "plated" value "Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM)" limits it to a smaller weight capacity. The reduction in its MAM allows it to be taxed at a lower rate. It might also mean the vehicle can be driven by a driver with a lower category of licence entitlements.

When a commercial vehicle is subjected to a roadside inspection, it's the "Plated" mass limit that is used as the weight limit. The Plate has to be displayed on the vehicle and it has meet regulatory requirement regarding its format and content.

Here is a guide just for information.

https://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/sites/default/files/Interpreting+Weight+Plates+for+Light+Commercial+Vehicles+web.pdf

The Caravan industry and possibly other trailer manufacture's seem to have adopted a similar approach for domestic use. However the reasoning is not to reduce the vehicle tax burden as there is no change, but more as a marketing ploy to make their products more attractive to a wider range of drivers. I suspect the industry uses the" Maximum Technically Permissible Laden Mass (MTPLM)" as a descriptor rather than MAM is because their not sure it has the same legal standing as MAM

This could work in three ways:-

Firstly Its a marketing ploy that can generate extra income if customers want to upgrade.​

The second reason - which is the result of the industries own less than accurate advice, relates to the industry calculation of towing ratio's. By setting the MTPLM lower than the mechanical capability it again makes towing ratios look a little better widening the perception of acceptability.​

​

Thirdly - for drivers who passed their test after 1st Jan 1997 who are limited to an outfit of combined MAM not exceeding 3500kg. Having a lower MTPLM on the trailer might bring a the combined MAM figure under 3500kg, where as without the down plating it might exceed the 3500kg limit and thus make the outfit illegal.​

​

This last point might have a possible sting in the tail. Let us assume a caravanner has a tow vehicle with MAM of 2100kg THe driver does not have BE on the licence so is limited to a combined MAM of 3500kg. that leaves 3500-2100 = 1400kg for the MAM of the trailer.

The caravanner finds a trailer with a an MTPLM of 1390kg. That gives a MAM+MTPLM of 3490kg.

The caravanner is stopped for a roadside check. The VOSA inspector may see the MTPLM sticker, but it does not conform to the legal requirements for the data it holds and goes on to find the finds the caravan's VIN plate where the MAM is stated to be 1450kg. that gives the Combined MAM 2100+1450 = 3550kg. The driver is not licenced to drive this outfit.

The caravan industry needs to get its act together about conformance with the existing regulations and either make sure upgrades are correctly addressed with conforming documentation and labeling.

And/or it should make lighter caravans and drop the down rating scheme and simply show the true MAM for the trailer.

 

[RogerL]

MTPLM is the abbreviation for Maximum Technical Permitted Laden Mass (my bold underline) and by any definition of the English language that means some technical component would need to be changed to vary the MTPLM and it cannot be varied simply by changing a sticker or plate. If it could be increased by purchasing a sticker then the previous figure was not a maximum.

This whole issue has become a farce and just demonstrates that British caravan makers are technically inept.

 

[otherclive]

MTPLM is the abbreviation for Maximum Technical Permitted Laden Mass (my bold underline) and by any definition of the English language that means some technical component would need to be changed to vary the MTPLM and it cannot be varied simply by changing a sticker or plate. If it could be increased by purchasing a sticker then the previous figure was not a maximum.

This whole issue has become a farce and just demonstrates that British caravan makers are technically inept.

Whilst I can understand and sympathise with your view WRT the caravan industry replating motorhomes has been done for years, and it does work out very useful for those approaching 70 years who don’t want the burden of repeated medical submissions, providing it gives a viable vehicle. . The benefit there is that a new owner if under 70 could always pay for replating to a higher figure.

 

[Ste6t9]

Well chaps. My last word on this I think. I have seen plates from a 2021 Palermo and a 2021 Alicanto Grande Porto. Both have axle limits of 900 each and both have MTPLM figures in the gas locker of less than 1800kg (despite all of them being able to upgrade to 1800kg)

Therefore I have to cut down drastically on what we take so I can keep my front axle under 900 (which is quite hard when it weighs in at 820 empty and I’m not even taking into account nose weight yet)

Or of course get a tow car that allows me to store more stuff in the boot and not overload it. For that situation, it’s a discovery 4, or a pickup I think.

I’m not expecting anything back from Bailey or the Dealer however will let you know if I do.

 

[Ern]

MTPLM is the abbreviation for Maximum Technical Permitted Laden Mass (my bold underline) and by any definition of the English language that means some technical component would need to be changed to vary the MTPLM and it cannot be varied simply by changing a sticker or plate. If it could be increased by purchasing a sticker then the previous figure was not a maximum.

This whole issue has become a farce and just demonstrates that British caravan makers are technically inept.

I have to disagree with your interpretation. MTPLM is the PERMITTED limit.
The manufacturer can set the permitted limit at any level within the Maximum stated in the Type Approval Certificate.

Well chaps. My last word on this I think. I have seen plates from a 2021 Palermo and a 2021 Alicanto Grande Porto. Both have axle limits of 900 each and both have MTPLM figures in the gas locker of less than 1800kg (despite all of them being able to upgrade to 1800kg)

Therefore I have to cut down drastically on what we take so I can keep my front axle under 900 (which is quite hard when it weighs in at 820 empty and I’m not even taking into account nose weight yet)

Or of course get a tow car that allows me to store more stuff in the boot and not overload it. For that situation, it’s a discovery 4, or a pickup I think.

I’m not expecting anything back from Bailey or the Dealer however will let you know if I do.

Your axles are rated at 1000Kg /1800Kg as a pair. We established this Monday. You have an upgrade to 1800Kg. Admittedly, Bailey is all over the place with documents and plates, but you actually have the upgrade you asked for. You can load your caravan to the upgraded limit.

 

[Ste6t9]

I have to disagree with your interpretation. MTPLM is the PERMITTED limit.
The manufacturer can set the permitted limit at any level within the Maximum stated in the Type Approval Certificate.

Your axles are rated at 1000Kg /1800Kg as a pair. We established this Monday. You have an upgrade to 1800Kg. Admittedly, Bailey is all over the place with documents and plates, but you actually have the upgrade you asked for. You can load your caravan to the upgraded limit.

I thought this however the axles sticker do state that they are rated 900 for a twin and 1000 for a single if I recall. Therefore as I’m a twin axle, they are 900 each.

I understand how strange that sounds because if an axle can take 1000kg then it shouldn’t matter whether it’s next to another one or not.

However I also risk the collective knowledge commenting with the correct assumption that the LOWEST has to be the limit adhered to.

 

[RogerL]

Whilst I can understand and sympathise with your view WRT the caravan industry replating motorhomes has been done for years, and it does work out very useful for those approaching 70 years who don’t want the burden of repeated medical submissions, providing it gives a viable vehicle. . The benefit there is that a new owner if under 70 could always pay for replating to a higher figure.

That's surely the difference between Maximum Authorised Weight (MAW) and Maximum Technically Permitted Laden Mass (MTPLM) - to change the former just needs to change the authority, to change the latter needs to change a technical component.

 

[RogerL]

I have to disagree with your interpretation. MTPLM is the PERMITTED limit.
The manufacturer can set the permitted limit at any level within the Maximum stated in the Type Approval Certificate.

BUT MTPLM is the Maximum limit, it can't be a range and it can't be lower than the maximum otherwise it isn't a maximum

 

[otherclive]

That's surely the difference between Maximum Authorised Weight (MAW) and Maximum Technically Permitted Laden Mass (MTPLM) - to change the former just needs to change the authority, to change the latter needs to change a technical component.

ive never had any technical changes on the two upgrades to caravans. Both were paperwork. But the original statutory label in the locker did show a higher figure than did the OEM door sticker and OEM documents. So both were a paperwork excercise.
I don’t think motorhomes are specified by MTPLM isn’t it MAW. You can have the MAW uplated, sometimes it may require some technical changes such as wheels, tyres and suspension. But not every time. If a 3700kg owner reaches 70 they may wish to down plate to 3500 kg maximum. They at some time sell the motorhome. The next owner being younger may decide to uplate it. In which case it may just be a paperwork excercise as any technical changes required are all insitu. So a revised set of documents are then issued by DVSA. So MaI mum isn’t a fixed term, but of course motorhomes are DVSA registered motor vehicles whereas caravans are not.

Read Svtech website who provide a one stop service for uplate or down plate along with registration of specialist or grey import vehicles too. Here’s what one owner did to achieve a change to Maximum


Downloaded a VTG10 form - filled it in and attached a letter summarising and attached the following evidence:
1. Photo of existing VIN plate;
2. Photo of Motorhome manufacturer plate;
3. Photocopy of Certificate of conformity - Fiat;
4. Photocopy of Certificate of conformity - Motorhome Manufacturer;
5. Photocopy TUV approval for Borbat CWD alloy wheels;
6. Photocopy of Dunlop Air suspension certificate (engineer fitting certificate);
6. Photo of Vehicle taken from outside (showing existing registration number);
7. Cheque payment - £15.00 !
[NB: as it is a Motorhome - no GVT Test Certificate was required]

In my case - I stated I wanded Max Permissible Mass (MPM) to increase from 3500kg to 3850kg
Front axle (MPM) to remain unchanged at 1850kg;
Rear axle (MPM) to remain unchanged at 200kg;
The "Revenue Weight" (Unladen Mass) as per Registration document was to remain unchanged at 3147kg.

Sent it off to VOSA / DVSA - at Padley road, Swansea - 10 days later received back a "Design Weight Certificate" approved showing 3850kg.

Finally,
Complete V5C Form for change of registration details (I did a covering lettering spelling out pricely what all the current relevant section figures were that involved amending together with their new values on completion of uprating) - was sent to DVLA together with a V85 - Application for PHGV vehicle tax (which if I remember was £165 instead of £225).

7-days later - received revised new Registration document.

Last thing I did was contact tag-plates and sent then a photo of existing Vin plates (Fiat) and Motorhome Plate/sticker; and then got them to sent me a "metallic sticker" along the lines of the Motorhome plate one but with the different figures. - Stuck it next to the Motorhome one.

 

[Ste6t9]

ive never had any technical changes on the two upgrades to caravans. Both were paperwork. But the original statutory label in the locker did show a higher figure than did the OEM door sticker and OEM documents. So both were a paperwork excercise.
I don’t think motorhomes are specified by MTPLM isn’t it MAW. You can have the MAW uplated, sometimes it may require some technical changes such as wheels, tyres and suspension. But not every time. If a 3700kg owner reaches 70 they may wish to down plate to 3500 kg maximum. They at some time sell the motorhome. The next owner being younger may decide to uplate it. In which case it may just be a paperwork excercise as any technical changes required are all insitu. So a revised set of documents are then issued by DVSA. So MaI mum isn’t a fixed term, but of course motorhomes are DVSA registered motor vehicles whereas caravans are not.

Read Svtech website who provide a one stop service for uplate or down plate along with registration of specialist or grey import vehicles too. Here’s what one owner did to achieve a change to Maximum


Downloaded a VTG10 form - filled it in and attached a letter summarising and attached the following evidence:
1. Photo of existing VIN plate;
2. Photo of Motorhome manufacturer plate;
3. Photocopy of Certificate of conformity - Fiat;
4. Photocopy of Certificate of conformity - Motorhome Manufacturer;
5. Photocopy TUV approval for Borbat CWD alloy wheels;
6. Photocopy of Dunlop Air suspension certificate (engineer fitting certificate);
6. Photo of Vehicle taken from outside (showing existing registration number);
7. Cheque payment - £15.00 !
[NB: as it is a Motorhome - no GVT Test Certificate was required]

In my case - I stated I wanded Max Permissible Mass (MPM) to increase from 3500kg to 3850kg
Front axle (MPM) to remain unchanged at 1850kg;
Rear axle (MPM) to remain unchanged at 200kg;
The "Revenue Weight" (Unladen Mass) as per Registration document was to remain unchanged at 3147kg.

Sent it off to VOSA / DVSA - at Padley road, Swansea - 10 days later received back a "Design Weight Certificate" approved showing 3850kg.

Finally,
Complete V5C Form for change of registration details (I did a covering lettering spelling out pricely what all the current relevant section figures were that involved amending together with their new values on completion of uprating) - was sent to DVLA together with a V85 - Application for PHGV vehicle tax (which if I remember was £165 instead of £225).

7-days later - received revised new Registration document.

Last thing I did was contact tag-plates and sent then a photo of existing Vin plates (Fiat) and Motorhome Plate/sticker; and then got them to sent me a "metallic sticker" along the lines of the Motorhome plate one but with the different figures. - Stuck it next to the Motorhome one.

Simples 👍

Wow. That’s a lot to do!!!

I’d get lost in the middle of all that

 

[otherclive]

Simples 👍

Wow. That’s a lot to do!!!

I’d get lost in the middle of all that

Sorry about that, but my post was recognising that there are times when Maximum can be changed to another figure with or without technical changes. But it doesn’t help your situation with a caravan.

There’s a typo in there too wrt rear axle weight….. I hope 😂

 

[Ste6t9]

Sorry about that, but my post was recognising that there are times when Maximum can be changed to another figure with or without technical changes. But it doesn’t help your situation with a caravan.

Not at all. It’s very interesting. Just amazing. As I said earlier however, I think the axle limits have been lowered so it is 900kg. Whether the MTPLM is at 1724 in the locker or 1800 on the sticker, as we like our comforts and are not the lightest of travellers plus about 40kg worth of dogs. We would be better getting a towcar that will basically take van payload out of the equation.

 

[otherclive]

Not at all. It’s very interesting. Just amazing. As I said earlier however, I think the axle limits have been lowered so it is 900kg. Whether the MTPLM is at 1724 in the locker or 1800 on the sticker, as we like our comforts and are not the lightest of travellers plus about 40kg worth of dogs. We would be better getting a towcar that will basically take van payload out of the equation.

Hang around and get a Rivian, then we can have real life experiences of a third EV owner too 😂

 

[Ste6t9]

Hang around and get a Rivian, then we can have real life experiences of a third EV owner too 😂

They look interesting. Already got an EV as our day to day runaround at home and love it.

 

[Hutch]

Ste69, the answer is, less beer in the caravan fridge on the way To a Woosie Fest, and be ready to move Stuff from the van to the car at a weight check, a 2000 mile tour around France was heavy but we managed it.
I admire your perseverance on the weight plate problem.

 

[Lutz]

I don’t think motorhomes are specified by MTPLM isn’t it MAW. You can have the MAW uplated, sometimes it may require some technical changes such as wheels, tyres and suspension.

Actually, it's always MTPLM, regardless what vehicle. MAW is obsolete terminology.

 

[otherclive]

Thank you. I took my definition from Practical Motorhome 5 May 2020. It just goes to show ……….
Clearly motorhomers get as confused as caravanners. No wonder 80% stopped for roadside checks are above whatever their upper weight limit is.

 

[Ste6t9]

*UPDATE*

Bailey have rung me!!!!!

Apparently, the only figure I need to worry about is the 1800 by my door. As for the axles, as long as the combined 2 plus jockey wheel is under 1800, that’s fine because they are classed as a tag axle and therefore a single entity.

He did ask how I would ever weigh them as single axles so I had to inform him that my nearest bridge is a dynamic axle weighbridge.

So basically even though my locker plate pictured again here shows the lower limit. They have said I’m ok.

 

[otherclive]

*UPDATE*

Bailey have rung me!!!!!

Apparently, the only figure I need to worry about is the 1800 by my door. As for the axles, as long as the combined 2 plus jockey wheel is under 1800, that’s fine because they are classed as a tag axle and therefore a single entity.

He did ask how I would ever weigh them as single axles so I had to inform him that my nearest bridge is a dynamic axle weighbridge.

So basically even though my locker plate pictured again here shows the lower limit. They have said I’m ok.

That’s a good outcome but what a tortuous path. Did you record the conversation so you can store on an SD card for playback should DVSA carry out a spot check 😱😱😱

 

[Ste6t9]

That’s a good outcome but what a tortuous path. Did you record the conversation so you can store on an SD card for playback should DVSA carry out a spot check 😱😱😱

He actually said “It wouldn’t be the DVSA that stop you “

I replied, “I rather think it would as that is what VOSA is now.

And yes, it is a good outcome because I know I can put more probably just behind the rearmost axle to load up that one which should take some of the front and balance everything out.

 

[Buckman]

*UPDATE*

Bailey have rung me!!!!!

Apparently, the only figure I need to worry about is the 1800 by my door. As for the axles, as long as the combined 2 plus jockey wheel is under 1800, that’s fine because they are classed as a tag axle and therefore a single entity.

He did ask how I would ever weigh them as single axles so I had to inform him that my nearest bridge is a dynamic axle weighbridge.

So basically even though my locker plate pictured again here shows the lower limit. They have said I’m ok.

Exactly what I was saying but got shot down in flames so gave up. However congrats for persevering and having put your. mind at rest..

 

[ProfJohnL]

This all assumes that DVSA would view the information in the same light at the side of the road.

DVSA have their standards to follow and would need to be able to confirm the upgrade relates to the caravan its attached to.

Bailey are doing themselves or their customers no favours by making the labels so ambiguous.

 

[Ern]

The outcome is ok for ste6t9, and is a common sense conclusion however, I think Bailey has made a pigs ear of plating their caravans which is likely eventually to become the basis of argument with DVSA. Its blindingly obvious that Bailey is not going to listen to anyone (but NCC ?).

 

[Lutz]

Following Bailey's response I have lost all faith in the company. How can they say that the label by the door is definitive when it doesn't comply with the requirements of the regulations and the label in the locker which does comply is of no concern?

 

[Ste6t9]

Following Bailey's response I have lost all faith in the company. How can they say that the label by the door is definitive when it doesn't comply with the requirements of the regulations and the label in the locker which does comply is of no concern?

I know. However this does tie in with my friend who has the new alicanto Grande. His is also able to upgrade to 1800 with 900 limit on each axle.
It looks like they have changed their stance since 2019