Increasing MTPLM plate

[Mick_price]

Hi all,

I have a bit of a dilemma and I hope someone can advise me.

I have a 2007 Fleetwood Meridien, MIRO 1035Kg, MTPLM 1275Kg, giving me a fairly comfortable payload of 240Kg. Whilst on holiday with the van loaded up, I took it to a weighbridge and discovered to my horror that it weighed 1320Kg. I weigh everything that I put on board, so I am 100% sure that I had less than 240Kg loaded.

After the holiday I weighed the van empty, and it came out at 1080Kg, some 45Kg above the plated MIRO. After some dialogue with Fleetwood they agreed to replate the van, via my dealer, to a MIRO of 1110Kg and a MTPLM of 1350Kg, this being the stated capacity of the Al-Ko chassis. However, Fleetwood went belly-up before they actually sent out the plate, so now I am stuck.

As far as I can tell, the only people who can issue a new plate are the manafacturer, but if they no longer exist surely there must be another way of having it re-plated. Caravan Club suggested the NCC, but they have not been any help. Basically, their only suggestion was to ignore the plate and work to the higher rating, or even take the plate off!

Anyone got any ideas? I could buy a blank plate on ebay and re-plate it myself, but where would that leave me legally?

Oh, and BTW, 1350Kg is fine for my towcar.

Thanks in advance

Mick

 

[Lutz]

You've run into a tough one there. Yes, it is correct that only the manufacturer can replate. If the manufacturer no longer exists and the corporate rights have not been transferred to anyone else who is available now, then the only way the caravan can be replated is for you to effectively become the 'manufacturer', much the same as a radical rebuild of motor vehicle. You would then issue a plate in your own name. This would, of course, mean that you will have to accept all liabilities that normally rest with a manufacturer, including the need for documentation.

So long as caravans are neither subject to type approval nor do they need to be registered (in the UK), it should theoretically be possible to issue your own plate without too much trouble, but I would advise to check with the DVLA first. Removing the plate altogether may cause problems with the police if you get stopped.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi mick.

you have come across a problem that is evermore increasing as the miro and mtplm figures get closer together as the level of trim and the fitting of movers ect, get more common, replating the van is not really an option if the manufacturer has gone bust.

the probability is that it is unlikely you will ever be stopped and weighed for being a few kg,s over the limit, but not impossible and the insurance angle of being over weight and having accident doesn't bear thinking about.

I am in a similar situation after fitting a h/d mover to my bailey 380/2 the mtplm was stated as 1022kg but after weighing it on a certified w/bridge found the weight empty with only one gas bottle and spare wheel on board was 855kg giving me a payload of only 167kg and the awnings I carry 2 one full size the other a porch weighed in at 70kg combined leaving only 97 kg for everything else.

but solutions can be found with a bit of care weigh everything that goes in the van that is a must have, ehu cable, pans, bedding, tv, water hogs ect, change to lightweight gas bottles carry one empty the other in use, dont carry water exept for a couple of ltrs for tea on route, empty the water tanks toilet, hot water ect, when everthing is in weigh the van and load the rest in up to just under the mtplm say by 10 kg and stick to it, any extras go in the car boot before towing.

take your time to load up properly, do a test run load up as if going away, car with passengers full of fuel ect, van loaded up extras in the boot just as if ready to go, and then go to the weighbridge and weigh it all, just to make sure the total weight is below the cars max gross vehicle weight.

and thats it really if anything is too heavy leave it behind juggle stuff round to get the best balance remember also that the nose weight of the the van ie 75kg CAN be deducted from the van weight so the awning could be taken out of the boot and placed on the van floor between the axels ect if it makes the ride height better for the car but the overhaul weight must be the same.

I hope this helps you sort things out somewhat other than trying to get the van replated but at least you know you are not alone with this problem.

colin.

 

[ProfJohnL]

From reading the snippets of information available on the WWW, The NTTA website

To comply with the D.o.T. Code of Practice for the recall of defective trailers less than 3500kg G.V.W. it is desirable that a trailer should carry a manufacturer's plate clearly showing-

Manufacturers name and address chassis or serial number and model number

Number of axles

Maximum weight per axle maximum

Nose weight of coupling

Maximum gross weight (G.V.W.)

Date of manufacture

It is not clear if the manufactures name should be the chassis or the trailer body manufacture. Where the body manufacture may have ceased trading, it may be permissible to seek clarification and a data plate from the chassis manufacture.

This is just my view and would need to checked with VOSA or the DVLA.

 

[Mick_price]

Guys

Thanks for the advice so far. I have written to Dept for Transport now to see what they have to say, 'cos as far as I can tell they "own" this piece of legislation. DVLA and VOSA are no help, DVLA are only interested in vehicles that are registered, and VOSA are only interested in vehicles that are tested.

Colin, I fully endorse what you are saying about shrinking payload margins as caravans get heavier each year. It's been a bee in my bonnet for some time, and was one of the main reasons I chose the Meridien because it's supposedly got a 240Kg payload. Caravan Club seem to think that 150Kg is more than enough for a couple, but quite honestly I think that is rubbish, particularly if you fit a mover. Start with 150Kg, take off 45Kg for the mover, then 22Kg for the 110AH battery that you need to run it, 22Kg for two gas bottles, 7Kg for water and waste containers, you're down to 55Kg for all your goods and chattels, food, bedding, crockery, etc. Impossible, if you ask me. It's about time caravan manufacturers used some more hi-tech products to reduce weight, even if it puts the price up. With the cost of running a 4X4 going through the roof, it makes sense to pay more for a light weight caravan and then pay less year after year, mile after mile, for a more economical tow car.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi mick

you have hit the nail right on the head. it should be possible to make a van where the miro and mtplm are wide enough apart to fit all the extras and have enough spare capacity for that extra pr of wellys

colin

 

[Guest]

I fully agree and have been making the same point several times. There should be a minimum payload per berth and the 'essential habitation' allowance needs to be increased by a significant margin to allow for crockery, saucepans and even food. Don't tell me people empty the fridge before towing, but weigh all that milk and soft drinks and it adds up. I also suspect most people have a few tins stored somewhere, just for emergencies, and of course the odd bottle of wine or two or three??

I did mention in a Post not long ago of a caravan listed as 6 berth but only hvaing a listed payload of 150 kgs. If 'Micks' experience is anything to go by, then that would be far far too low.

Actually if Mick has the chassis plate from ALKO then it should be possible to use that as a confirmation of his increased weight. Maybe they can confirm that the maximum loading of his chassis type is the 1350 kg he wants.

 

[Mick_price]

S Lad,

Thanks for your comments. The Al-Ko chassis is plated at 1350Kg, but you have to lie on your back with your head on upside down to see it. It's attached to the axle facing towards the caravan floor, so I could just see it with a mirror and torch.

I think there is quite a consensus about payloads between those of us who think about it. I honestly believe that most people just ignore it, and certainly one fellow caravanner that I have discussed it with said that he would do just that. Speak to a dealer and he will just brush over it, and even the guy at the National Caravan Council said the chances of getting pulled by the law for being overweight were negligible, so don't worry about it. When I pointed out the possibility of invalidating insurance, his answer was that following an accident there normally isn't enough of the caravan left to weigh to be able to establish that it was overloaded. Helpful, eh?

 

[ProfJohnL]

I think Mick's point if used as an argument for careless over loading is a little perilous.

Just because others do it does not make it right, and you can bet that if the authorities thought there was a chance of overloading being a contributing factor in a serious incident, then they would be all over the wreck looking for evidence.

equally if an insurance company had any hint that you might of overloaded car or caravan, they will use it to limit their liability in any claim.

The law is quite encompassing, the driver is responsible for the vehicle (and trailer) including the loading.

Its not worth risking, licence or insurance - check your weights.

 

[Mick_price]

John L

Can we just be clear, it's not my point, it was a point made by the guy at the National Caravan Council, effectively the caravan industry's trade body.

Having once been victim of a snaking accident, even though nowhere near overloaded and towing with a 4x4, I have come to realise that these things don't just happen to other people and I am probably far more particular than most when it comes to loading, tyre pressures, weights etc. That's why I am trying so hard to get a resolution to this. I'm more than happy that my outfit is safe, I'm not overloading the chassis, the manufacturer agreed to re-rate the specification, there is just a stupid little plate that says it's overloaded and that just could get me a conviction or give an insurance company a cop-out if the worst should happen.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Mick,

Thank you for clarifying who said what and to whom etc... I accept you were only repeating the information you had received.

My point about overloading is still valid.

However, I have given the subject a little more thought, and I might need to change my earlier suggestion about using the chassis manufacturers figures in the absence of the caravan makers plate.

As you pointed out, the chassis manufacture plates the axle beam, but the danger is that that figure may not represent the safe load for the whole chassis/caravan body.

Most caravan manufacturers will assemble a chassis from a kit of parts. The strength of whole chassis will be dependant on the strength of the weakest part in the kit, and that may mean the full axle capacity is not available for the caravan as a whole.

It could be an unsafe assumption to use the max axle load as your guide for the whole caravan.

I realise this is not particularly helpful.

 

[tj_4]

Hello Mick,

Thank you for clarifying who said what and to whom etc... I accept you were only repeating the information you had received.

My point about overloading is still valid.

However, I have given the subject a little more thought, and I might need to change my earlier suggestion about using the chassis manufacturers figures in the absence of the caravan makers plate.

As you pointed out, the chassis manufacture plates the axle beam, but the danger is that that figure may not represent the safe load for the whole chassis/caravan body.

Most caravan manufacturers will assemble a chassis from a kit of parts. The strength of whole chassis will be dependant on the strength of the weakest part in the kit, and that may mean the full axle capacity is not available for the caravan as a whole.

It could be an unsafe assumption to use the max axle load as your guide for the whole caravan.

I realise this is not particularly helpful.

Hi

Having been one of the few who have been pulled by the law and found to be overweight I would advise everybody to keep to the plated weight. Following this experience I concluded that 90% of caravanners are overweight. I thought I was a careful caravanner who abided by the law but we don't realise what we collect in the van. Since then I have always had the new vans up-plated when ever it has been possible to allow a higher loading limit. Most manufacturers down plate the vans to appeal to a wider tow car range. The chassis and tyres are often capable of a higher weight. In December I took delivery of a Bailey Wyoming, this Bailey up-plated from 1646kg to 1800gk for a nominal fee. The Indiana that I p/x'd could not be re-plated as it was at the chassis maximum as designed. I have alse found Swift group willing to increase the plate weight if requested at the time of ordering. The increased weight must be within the towcars limit, but I'm sure you would all of assumed this.

Steve

 

[Mick_price]

John

Very valid point about the weight capacity of the axle vs the entire chassis. In this case, however, Fleetwood have agreed in writing (email) that they were prepared to increase the MTPLM up to the plated capacity of the chassis (axle), and the same chassis is used for other models further up the range with higher MTPLM so I am confident that running at 1350Kg does not represent a problem. The only thing Fleetwood said I should do is increase tyre pressures from 52psi to 55psi. BTW, tyres are rated at 770Kg each, so no problem there either.

 

[Guest]

To my mind you have a couple of choices.

I know where the axle plate is, yes, stuck right in the middle, but you can take a photograph of it and attach that with your e mail from Fleetwoood and send it to your insurers and ask if they will insure the van at the requested MTPLM. If they confirm then I feel you can safely use that new weight, and if stopped produce the documentation to show what you have done. What the Police are looking for is unsafe caravans, not necessarily trying to score points, however, I accept there are some Forces in the UK where you never know.

The second is basically to reload the van so you are within the existing MTPLM. If this means moving stuff to the towcar then so be it, as long as you do not exceed either the car maximum weight, or the total train weight. By doing that then you can roll along safe in the knowledge that you are 100% legal.

Really, the choice is yours. With the demise of Fleetwood you have little alternative. You either take what I would suggest is a very low risk, or avoid it altogether. But possibly you are worrying unnecessarily.

 

[Dustydog]

Mick

A real wild card and shot in the dark. Can Adria , who still own the Fleetwood name help?

The Fleetwood MD up until they went into adminstration was a Slovakian employee of Adria.

Cheers

Dustydog

 

[Mick_price]

Well guys, here is the update. I wrote to Dept for Transport, and they have suggested:

i) speak to Fleetwood administrators - already done with no success

ii) speak to Caravan Club - done, they suggested Nat Caravan Council

iii) speak to Nat Caravan Council - already done without success.

Other than that, their only advice, which I quote, is "Only a Court of Law can give an authoritative interpretation of the law"

I really think I am at the end of the road on this. I have tracked down the company who bought Fleetwood's stock and they have very kindly sent me a blank plate of different design and size for some type of trailer stating "MAW" (presumably Max Allowable Weight), and a plate exactly like the one on my 'van but with a MTPLM of 1750Kg, presumably from one of the huge Heritage models. I'm undecided whether to put the 1750Kg plate on, or whether to stamp 1350Kg as the MAW on the other plate and attach that.

It seems crazy that we all believe it is a legal requirement to have these plates fitted, but no-one can identify the piece of legislation that says so, and that includes Caravan Club, NCC, VOSA and Dept for Transport.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Mick,

In one of your posts you say that you have an email from Fleetwood agreeing to uprate the figures. Assuming you have that email on record and can produce it, then I think you would be safe to have the new plate stamped up at the higher figures.

 

[Lutz]

I would follow John's suggestion. It would irresponsible for anyone to send you a plate showing an MAW of 1750kg.

Unfortunately, there appears to be nothing in the UK equivalent to the German T

 

[GregC]

Well guys, here is the update. I wrote to Dept for Transport, and they have suggested:

i) speak to Fleetwood administrators - already done with no success

ii) speak to Caravan Club - done, they suggested Nat Caravan Council

iii) speak to Nat Caravan Council - already done without success.

Other than that, their only advice, which I quote, is "Only a Court of Law can give an authoritative interpretation of the law"

I really think I am at the end of the road on this. I have tracked down the company who bought Fleetwood's stock and they have very kindly sent me a blank plate of different design and size for some type of trailer stating "MAW" (presumably Max Allowable Weight), and a plate exactly like the one on my 'van but with a MTPLM of 1750Kg, presumably from one of the huge Heritage models. I'm undecided whether to put the 1750Kg plate on, or whether to stamp 1350Kg as the MAW on the other plate and attach that.

It seems crazy that we all believe it is a legal requirement to have these plates fitted, but no-one can identify the piece of legislation that says so, and that includes Caravan Club, NCC, VOSA and Dept for Transport.

Hi all,

Just to add further confusion to this debate, I am certain that if you can find the appropriate part of the Construction and Use regulations, you will find that a Caravan is classed as an " Unplated Vehicle " and so it does not legally need a plate, but the NCC and Caravan Club will not tell you this.

Good luck,

Greg

 

[GregC]

Hi all,

Just to add further confusion to this debate, I am certain that if you can find the appropriate part of the Construction and Use regulations, you will find that a Caravan is classed as an " Unplated Vehicle " and so it does not legally need a plate, but the NCC and Caravan Club will not tell you this.

Good luck,

Greg

Apologies for mistake, should read " Unplated Trailer ".