Insurance and the 85% rule

[Simon_5067396]

Whilst seeking insurance for my new Sterling Europa 540 the Caravan Club Insurance declined to insure me because towing with a Volvo V70 2.4 168bhp does not meet the 85 % rule.

I thought this was simple advisory? In any case, previous threads have suggested vehicle power and torque is nearly as relevant. Am I kidding myself or is this a reasonable match IF I am careful about load ?

Any V70 owners out there please help!

Sterling MIRO 1216KG MTPLM 1441 KG

V70 KERBWEIGHT 1415 KG 85% 1203 KG

 

[Lutz]

Declining insurance because an outfit is over 85% weight ratio does seem rather steep in view of the fact that it is only an advisory. But, taking a closer look at your figures, you would already be over 100% and that is definitely not to be recommended. Still, it is legal as the V70 has an 1800kg to 2100kg manufacturer's tow limit, depending on model, and it would not be unreasonable to expect one to be able to insure an outfit that complies with legal requirements.

 

[Simon_5067396]

Thanks for that. I doubt that I would ever get close to MTPLM , and in reality doesn't the fact that the car itself will carry the passengers and all the heaviest items play part in the equation?

 

[RichardS1]

In all the time we have had our caravan insured by the Caravan Club I have never been asked what vehicle we tow the caravan with. Was this a new policy Simon?

 

[Simon_5067396]

Yes it was a new policy , but the Caravan Club are the only firm who I have asked for a quote from who want to know about the car I was towing with.

 

[rob_jax]

Quote: "doesn't the fact that the car itself will carry the passengers and all the heaviest items play part in the equation?"

That's why the car to caravan ratio is calculated with the weights of the unladen car and the caravan MTPLM - then there's no possible way that the actual ratio could be worse than calculated. And the 85% guideline then has some meaning as an upper limit - and is applicable to every caravan and car combination.

If you did the calculation with the manufacturer's maximum vehicle weight compared to the unladen weight of the caravan, then the actual ratio will always be worse. Different caravans have different payload allowances - so the upper limit of the ratio is effectively undefined.

When trying to set guidelines for others to follow, it's never a good idea to report a minimum value and have no idea of the upper limit

Robert

 

[BigAl1]

Maybe this is the best time for the insurance company to query the towcar to caravan match beacause it is better to know at this point that it would be to have a claim rejected at a later date.

I insure with the Caravan Club and cannot recall having to specify the towcar when taking out my policy and have never informed the caravan insurance company when the towcar has been changed.

But one of the first question asked on the Caravan Club claim form is "what towing vehicle". Surely if it was a less that perfect match the insurance would have an excuse to not pay out.

 

[Lutz]

There's no such thing as a perfect match. There are good ones and bad ones but nothing is perfect. Even a 60% ratio is not necessarily perfect if the weight isn't distributed correctly. Nobody has ever said how the 85% figure was arrived at so it's difficult to assess the conditions under which it is valid.

 

[BeemerMal]

I was asked by CC what my tow vehicle was when I moved over from NFU insurance in 2005 but they never said anything about a requirement to achieve an 85% match. (mine is 69% anyway)

When I renewed in 2006 there was nothing asked for on the renewal policy and clearly nothing about it in the policy booklet.

This might be something that they now see as a problem, more so now many entry level caravans are much heavier and not suitable to be towed by many small/medium family saloons!

 

[Lutz]

I still think that declining insurance solely on the basis of the outfit being over 85% is totally unqualified and is a sign that the insurance company has failed to understand the complexity of the issue.

 

[JTQ]

I pressume its an underwriters decision based on their view of the risk, just like car insurance for under 25 years olds is.

I believe its very well found as I for one would not wish to be towing something with approaching the same kinetic energy of my car. I know which part of the combination I would want to be the dominat part and its not the van.

Yes its right to state the relative masses its not the only feature thats important but if its the wrong way round nothing but nothing will put the resulting energy inbalance right.

 

[Lutz]

It is a proven fact that braking distance is actually shorter when towing a trailer than when the car is solo (on condition that both the car's brakes and those of the caravan are properly adjusted and maintained). This is due to the fact that when the caravan's overrun brake is deployed, the caravan will tend to tip forward and the increased noseload will push the back end of the car down. This, in turn, increases rear axle load of the car, thereby improving the braking efficiency of that axle. This doesn't mean to say that I think that exceeding the kerbweight would actually be beneficial (there are other effects which are equally counteractive) but I strongly question whether the insurers' assessment of the risk is based on actual accident data. Only 0.9% of all accidents involve cars which are towing so there cannot be very much reliable and differentiated data to form the basis of a justifiable restriction on a 85%+ weight ratio.

 

[JTQ]

Lutz, in respect to the insurance issue I feel your missing the point, its the caravan insurers who will not accept the situation. Surely they have 100% feedback of towing incident claims that they settle, irrespective of this being but a small percentage of all motoring claims.

So they must be able to form a pretty well informed view of the risk they are taking, and seemingly they don,t like too high a weight ratio.

 

[Lutz]

I get your point but I'm saying that there are so few caravan accidents and there are so many possible causes that I cannot imagine the weight ratio stands out as being particularly significant.

I say this because the permissible weight ratio for towing at 100km/h in Germany was raised a while back from 80% to 100% because accident data was unable to prove any direct correlation.

 

[giovanni_5060838]

Simon, concerning caravan club insurance and the fact they asked

about what car you will use to tow?

I do find that very strange, as we have just got a quote for

our new burstner, and we were not asked anything about

car details. and this too will be a new policy....

 

[Simon_5067396]

Since my first post I have had a letter from the Caravan Club explaining that the underwriter was not prepared to accept a less a ratio greater thatn 85 % because I have had a previous claim that related to instability. The fact was whilst towing a very light Swift Challenger with a Volvo 850 estate, I was tailgated by a flatbed lorry apparently frustrated by my sedate overtake of a lorry in the nearside lane. I don't think anything could have saved me there (not even the Top Gear put your foot down technique..)

Since the response from the CC, and because like anyone who has had a motorway accident with a caravan,my missus and I (not to mention the kids)are all v. nervous, I'm feeling very unsure about a ratio over 85%. I think the answer may just be a heavier tow vehicle. thanks for all the replies and advice.

On reflection, given that the companies are covering risk, isn't it odd that most DON'T ask about the tow vehicle???

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

Hi all, just a quick reply for Lutz, "It is a proven fact that braking distance is actually shorter" Not wishing to be argumentative or rude but who proved it & when? I personally find that an extra ton & a half pushing on the back of me @ 60 mph on a dry road takes a bit longer to come safely to a halt than if I was solo. In my humble opinion the biggest problem nowadays is lack of driver training, it should be made compulsory for all drivers towing a trailer of any description to undergo a training course followed by a test, and then the entitlement added to there license. How many times have we all been on site and seen the family turn up complete with 3 kids dog and all the trappings, back end of the car nigh on the ground, and in an attempt to reverse on to pitch No 6 pays a visit to 3&4 then 7&8 before coming to a rest with the van facing west & the car pointing to the north! And that's not taking in to account the antics we see him get up to on the Motorway. Yes the 85% recommendation has its rightful place but I do believe that there are a lot more important factors to take in to account before we venture out on to the public Highways. No one will convince me otherwise that a towed caravan in certain circumstances can be the most unstable vehicle on our roads no matter what the combination, and deserves complete and utter respect and concentration 100% of the time.

Allan.

 

[Lutz]

To answer your question regarding braking distance, the caravan, no matter how heavy it is, is not pushing the car during braking (or at least it shouldn't be if its brakes are working properly). I am sure there is more than one test report that confirms this result. The one that I read was published a year or two ago but I can't remember the name of the institute that performed the test. Besides, a study by the German Ministry of Transport was unable to prove any correlation between weight ratio and accident rate. That's why the weight ratio limit in Germany for towing at 100km/h was raised from 80% to 100%.

Also, there is no such thing as a dangerous outfit. It's only the way in which it is driven that is potentially dangerous. If driven with due care with regard to road, traffic and weather conditions, one can tow almost anything without endangering one's self or other road users. Obviously, an outfit at 100% or more is going to place more demands on the driver's skill and concentration than one at 85% but, by the same argument, one at 60% would be even easier to drive. The 85% is no magical threshold where one is doomed to have a certain accident if you go over that figure. It is a sliding scale that can vary according to road and weather conditions. Therefore, it can be no more than a guideline recommendation.

 

[JTQ]

Lutz, I find your statement "no matter how heavy it is, is not pushing the car during braking (or at least it shouldn't be if its brakes are working properly)" difficult to technically accept.

Nearly all of us in Europe have vans with "over-run" braking systems and these only work because the momentum of the van is "pushing" on the towing vehicle. I can accept if set up correctly it could be a self limiting force but not that it is not pushing to an extent enough to apply the vans brakes.

If indeed the units braking performance is better than the towing vehicle's solo performance I would look for causes such as increased rear axle loading. I certainly have no experience of towing enchancing the braking but at the same time niether have I been dissapointed when forced to brake suddenly.

 

[Lutz]

If the overrun brake is working properly, it needs relatively little effort to deploy - no more than applying the handbrake. This is hardly going to make any difference to the braking performance of the towcar.

The laws of physics result in a weight transfer away from the rear axle of the towcar and on to the front axle when braking. This is due to the centre of gravity of the towcar being somewhat higher than the axle height. The only way to improve the braking performance of the rear axle is therefore to offset this weight transfer by applying an additional vertical load at the back and this is where the increased noseweight due to a similar weight transfer of the caravan under braking helps.

 

[Garfield]

I'm with Lutz on this one, assuming everything is adjusted correctly the only forward force on the car from the van should be that required to apply the brakes, once the coupling has compressed against the brake coupling, the caravan is braking itself and the only forward force on the car is that required to keep the brake on,

I know I harp on about the obsession with weight matching but I say again it is only half the factors influencing stability,

I towed the same 12' caravan with a Golf GTI and a peugeot 405 estate, despite being lighter, the golf was more stable. Despite being an estate car, the Peugeot had quite soft suspension and a longer rear overhang (distance between rear wheels and tow ball). Pitching and the influence of passing trucks was much more noticable than with the lighter, more rigid Golf.

I would happily tow at 100% match with a GTI type of vehicle but not with a standard saloon or 4x4.

Perhaps we should have some kind of standard dynamic stability test similar to the moose avoidance test that the A class mercedes spectacularly failed

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

Sorry, can't convince me that my car @ 1650kg will stop quicker towing a trailer weighing almost 1500kg, with two relatively small drum brakes with no abs, and a time lag before the van brakes kick in due to the overrun feature, will stop quicker than if solo. And that's not taking into account of wet roads where we so heavily depend on abs on our modern car to bring us to a halt that much quicker, it's like saying that an empty hgv weighing in @ 14 tons will stop in the same distance as if it were fully laden @ 44 tons, "no matter how heavy it is not pushing the car" same principle applies whether the trailer is super imposed on to the towing vehicle, or is being dragged as in a draw bar situation ( I'm sure if there are any hgv drivers on here reading this they will confirm this) I have no technical knowledge to back this up, just pure through the seat exp of over more than 35yrs driving with all types of trailers to base my findings on. I will also stand by what I said in my previous post "No one will convince me otherwise that a towed caravan in certain circumstances can be the most unstable vehicle on our roads no matter what the combination, and deserves complete and utter respect and concentration 100% of the time" and that takes in to consideration no matter how well it is loaded, or how experienced the driver is, there are so many underlying factors cross winds etc that can turn a well matched outfit in to an absolute nightmare, why else ask your self do we fit stabilizers? Because by design they are inherently unstable to start with, ideally they would have a wheel in each corner for maximum stability, but that in turn brings about a whole lot of other problems which are fairly obvious. Back in the early 60s you could pass your car test, then go and jump in a hgv with no training whatsoever, apart from a few tips from Fred the yard Forman, and off you would go. Ring any bells? As I said before we need to make driver training compulsory just as we did for Hgv's.

Allan.

 

[Lutz]

I don't know about a standard 'Moose' test for caravan outfits but generally this is a good idea. The only problem is that it is only valid for the particular combination being tested. If you change the towcar or change the caravan, you could get a completely different result. Nevertheless, it is something that PC magazine could include in their tests without a lot of extra effort. All you need is a few cones placed on the road a certain distance apart, an accelerometer in the car or caravan to measure the sway from side to side and a means of recording the result at a defined speed.

 

[Lutz]

You are confusing two issues, Allan. I am not saying that car plus caravan would stop as quickly as a lightly laden car with just the driver. What I am saying is that it would stop as quickly as a solo car which is fully laden up to its max. GVW.

 

[BrianStAlbans]

Just to comfirm what Lutz is saying .Some years ago one the the caravan mags tested stopping distances of cars with ABS and cars without, both towing and solo. The shortest stopping distance was achieved by the car with ABS towing a caravan.

Brian