Is 20 plenty?

[Dustydog]

I believe the massive change in Wales is misplaced.
My home town is 20 in the High Street and near schools at owning and closing times. Otherwise 30. This has worked very well for many years. Making it global may actually be detrimental to normal health and the economy. HGV drivers have strict driving times. They will now need more time increasing delivery costs. Cars driven in s lower gear may actually pollute more.
I am not convinced the Welsh decision has been fully thought out?

 

[otherclive]

Bus timetables have had to be revised so journeys take longer but no additional services to compensate. There won’t be the normal repeater signs as 20 is the new 30, and it’s estimated satnav updates could be 2-3 years before most new limits are recognised. Stricter enforcement of 30 mph limits would have been a better option.

 

[Sam Vimes]

I saw this in the news and was somewhat bewildered by the fact that article stated that Wales was the first UK nation to do this. Maybe there's some technicality that I'm overlooking but the 20 limit has been widespread in Scotland for years. My Sat Nav recognises most of them and in those regions I've been through there were few if any repeat signs for the 30 limit anyway.

Quite a number of modern 'smartish' cars have traffic sign recognition so there's often a reminder on the display.

I fully support the idea and from what I've seen in our local town it makes no difference to commerce since you could only crawl through there anyway. Even in the other towns we've been through it only takes a little extra time to get to your destination.

 

[otherclive]

In general 30 mph limits don’t require repeater signs. In England and Wales a 20mph limit is approved snd instigated at local authority level to meet specific areas of risk such as schools, housing estates, etc but they are only local whereas in Wales the government have basically changed all 30 mph limits to 20mph, and 30 mph is the exception and will have to be specifically approved.

I’m in Northumberland and there are many 20 mph limits in villages but quite a few areas where various limits have been changed but a recent satnav update (Tom Tom) doesn’t recognise them. Need to stay alert 🤣

 

[Dustydog]

This gives a reasonable overview

Wales introduces a national 20mph speed limit - FleetPoint

Wales introduces a national 20mph speed limit - Speed Limits - Wales - TfL - Welsh Government - FleetPoint

fleetpoint.org

 

[Raywood]

I am not convinced it will work and the cost to the economy is far higher than the saving to the NHS even if their figures work out. It is best allowed to run and see what if any benefits accrue. I suspect it will not work without enforcement and frankly the police do not have the resources.
We do have some 20 limits here in Scotland, but most seem to be in areas where the traffic is dense and you are usually unable to seriously exceed this, so I am not sure if a more extensive limit will work.

 

[ProfJohnL]

...
Quite a number of modern 'smartish' cars have traffic sign recognition so there's often a reminder on the display...

Hmmm,

Let me give you an instance where a cars TSR would get horribly confused. Travelling south towards the A5 in Staffordshire, a town has a speed limit of 30mph, but there is another small settlement that sits on the edge of the A5 that you have to pass through that has a blanket 20mph limit. THe TSR would pick up the 20mph signs. Just at the traffic island junction with the A5, there is a sign that tells you are leaving the 20mph area, but cruishially there is no warning of the speed limit around the island. So what is the limit? Its not 20 because you have been told that area has now finished, The last speed limit information you have was 30mph.

Regardless of which way you go either direction on the A5 or directly onto the straight ahead exit to another town, you do not com across another speed limit indicator for at least 1/4 mile.

But travelling in any other direct towards the island there are 40mph speed limits on the island.

Whilst I and other locals know this outsiders wouldn't, and TSR systems would be fooled.

I do note that Google Maps used through Android Auto do seem to work it out.

 

[Jaydug]

I don't live in the London Borough of Sutton, but fairly close to its boundary. Not only do they have many residential streets with a maximum speed limit of 20mph, but also if the street is close to a school, there is a driving prohibition for an hour or so each morning and afternoon, with cameras positioned to catch offenders. Many visitors receive unwelcome penalty notices in the post. Of course, I can't even drive my C5 in that direction now since it isn't ULEZ-acceptable.

 

[Dustydog]

Hmmm,

Let me give you an instance where a cars TSR would get horribly confused. Travelling south towards the A5 in Staffordshire, a town has a speed limit of 30mph, but there is another small settlement that sits on the edge of the A5 that you have to pass through that has a blanket 20mph limit. THe TSR would pick up the 20mph signs. Just at the traffic island junction with the A5, there is a sign that tells you are leaving the 20mph area, but cruishially there is no warning of the speed limit around the island. So what is the limit? Its not 20 because you have been told that area has now finished, The last speed limit information you have was 30mph.

Regardless of which way you go either direction on the A5 or directly onto the straight ahead exit to another town, you do not com across another speed limit indicator for at least 1/4 mile.

But travelling in any other direct towards the island there are 40mph speed limits on the island.

Whilst I and other locals know this outsiders wouldn't, and TSR systems would be fooled.

I do note that Google Maps used through Android Auto do seem to work it out.

Cricklade is almost as you describe Prof. Leave the 70 mph A419. 440 yards later hit the tiny roundabout 30 sign , cross rbt sign 20! TSR doesn’t cope well with this. I can see the Community Speed Watch Groups having a field day

 

[Buckman]

Basically a money making exercise although I agree with it in the vicinity of schools.

 

[Sam Vimes]

I'm sure the first thoughts of those involved and the families of those injured or killed in traffic accidents will be....'sorry to have caused disruption to motorists and caused extra work for the NHS'

Not every decision is about money.

 

[Sam Vimes]

Hmmm,

Let me give you an instance where a cars TSR would get horribly confused. Travelling south towards the A5 in Staffordshire, a town has a speed limit of 30mph, but there is another small settlement that sits on the edge of the A5 that you have to pass through that has a blanket 20mph limit. THe TSR would pick up the 20mph signs. Just at the traffic island junction with the A5, there is a sign that tells you are leaving the 20mph area, but cruishially there is no warning of the speed limit around the island. So what is the limit? Its not 20 because you have been told that area has now finished, The last speed limit information you have was 30mph.

Regardless of which way you go either direction on the A5 or directly onto the straight ahead exit to another town, you do not com across another speed limit indicator for at least 1/4 mile.

But travelling in any other direct towards the island there are 40mph speed limits on the island.

Whilst I and other locals know this outsiders wouldn't, and TSR systems would be fooled.

I do note that Google Maps used through Android Auto do seem to work it out.

They're not perfect but I find they do help on a long stretch when you may have missed the only sign way back.

Mine sometimes picks up speed signs from the back of trucks or side roads.

 

[otherclive]

I don't live in the London Borough of Sutton, but fairly close to its boundary. Not only do they have many residential streets with a maximum speed limit of 20mph, but also if the street is close to a school, there is a driving prohibition for an hour or so each morning and afternoon, with cameras positioned to catch offenders. Many visitors receive unwelcome penalty notices in the post. Of course, I can't even drive my C5 in that direction now since it isn't ULEZ-acceptable.

But doesn’t the school 20mph limit have flashing amber lights to denote it is active? Schools near to us on some roads have the amber flashing lights and 20 mph when flashing.

 

[Dustydog]

Rarely. Imagine the cost of the flashers as well😉

 

[otherclive]

Not all our local schools have flashing Amber plus 20 mph when flashing. Tends to be those where the entrance/exit are on busier roads. That’s where the higher risks are.

 

[Jcloughie]

I am all for 20mph on housing estates in general, but 30 on spine roads. Spine, or feeder roads service many estates and are faily straight without housing directly on them. I feel, in such cases 20mph could even be dangerous. I think it would even be challenging to maintain.

On my estate. On the roads with housing, parked cars and children etc. We have a 30 limit. Few do that speed but it is too fast.

John

PS, just looking at the Dustydog link in #5. It reads as that might be what they are doing. If so, I am for it.

It is some calling it a ‘blanket ban’. That confuses.

 

[Jaydug]

But doesn’t the school 20mph limit have flashing amber lights to denote it is active? Schools near to us on some roads have the amber flashing lights and 20 mph when flashing.

No! No flashing lights. Just the warning notices at each end of the roads. A stranger to the area can all so easily turn into the road without seeing the signs - never mind checking the time of day. The cameras are at mid-point.

 

[Jcloughie]

No! No flashing lights. Just the warning notices at each end of the roads. A stranger to the area can all so easily turn into the road without seeing the signs - never mind checking the time of day. The cameras are at mid-point.

View attachment 5519

Anyone turning in and looking for bikes and pedestrians might miss those signs, And the road markings suggest a normal two way road.

Also, I am not sure of the right of way of the coloured paved area. Is it the same as a zebra crossing or is it a free for all.

In that picture, the paved areas have shapes or symbols that look fairly meaningless.

John

 

[Seblo]

Anyone turning in and looking for bikes and pedestrians might miss those signs, And the road markings suggest a normal two way road.

The speed ramp and the big "20" on the road surface might suggest a speed restriction

If a 20mph speed limit saves lives I'm all for it. I don't see how anyone can argue against it

 

[Buckman]

The speed ramp and the big "20" on the road surface might suggest a speed restriction

If a 20mph speed limit saves lives I'm all for it. I don't see how anyone can argue against it

From another perspective is that vehicle travelling at 20mph are in a lower gear burning more fuel and creating more pollution and this may cause "unseen" deaths. The 20mph is okay where appropriate, but who is going to police it?

 

[otherclive]

Anyone turning in and looking for bikes and pedestrians might miss those signs, And the road markings suggest a normal two way road.

Also, I am not sure of the right of way of the coloured paved area. Is it the same as a zebra crossing or is it a free for all.

In that picture, the paved areas have shapes or symbols that look fairly meaningless.

John

The colours paved area with associated bollards is a crossing point but does not have the same status as a zebra crossing. It’s sim is to alert the driver to the fact there may be people and children wanting to cross the road, and a driver can show consideration to let them cross. Such crossing points are placed near some of our local schools that are on 30 mph. feeder roads to residential areas which are quiet and don’t carry much traffic. The features seem to work well and do alert your consciousness especially at school times.

 

[Seblo]

From another perspective is that vehicle travelling at 20mph are in a lower gear burning more fuel and creating more pollution and this may cause "unseen" deaths. The 20mph is okay where appropriate, but who is going to police it?

I'm not sure the mpg is a worthy argument, it's clutching at straws. Held at a constant speed fuel consumption should be improved at 20 versus 30. Good fuel consumption can be achieved at 20mph, ave 90 mpg is achievable. Most energy is used accelerating, so accelerating up to 30 after slowing down would use more fuel than accelerating back up to 20mph. This happens often in built up areas

It might be worth noting that towing will adversely affect fuel consumption much more.

How much more pollution do you suggest will be created by the 20 speed restriction?

All speed limits are policed in the same way.... by the police, using various methods, at various times, as we all know

 

[Jaydug]

In that picture, the paved areas have shapes or symbols that look fairly meaningless.

The markings on the blocked paved area are part of Google Street View. Zoom out on Street View and the markings also drop down. But that apart - there's no indication for any sort of priority.

 

[Challenger]

Don't get mad, get even.
Drive through the 20mph places in first gear. Increases emissions and noise.

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[GaryB]

If it's 20, it's 20, who am I to argue? I regularly travel through Rosset near Wrexham that has a 20mph stretch along the main road, I set the cruise control and let the cyclists overtake me!

BUT, being good and sticking to the limit has caused more than a handful of "road rage" incidents for me from Mr Impatient and his army of purple-necked mates, so although it isn't viable, I'd like to see average speed cameras in all restricted zones to ensure all comply!