I drive a 2.0L Mondeo TDCi. This is (for the UK) quite a big and heavy car. Despite this as I discovered when looking for a brand new caravan, only samll caravans such as the Bailey Ranger 510/4 fall within the 85% kerb weight, and even then using the 7% nose weight, are too heavy for the Mondeo. I had a look at the figures for other large family cars such as the Pass at and it is the same story with regards to Nose Weight. Are caravanners going to be forced to pay hight taxes and fuel bills, extra driving tests etc just to drive 4x4s to tow their caravans in the future? Or should we be asking the caravan makers to produce simpler, smaller and lighter caravans for people who want to be able to drive a proper car?
Is any car suitable to tow a modern caravan?
- Thread starter WilliamLX
- Start date
What a good question! All is not lost though, there are some heavweights out there albeit at the expensive end of the market such as Jag,BMW and Merc all of which have the desirable RWD.
If you can't run to those prices the the likes of KIA Sedona and Ford Galaxy fit the bill too.
like you I prefer to stick with as low a ratio as possible and would never go to 100% or compromise the towball loading as I want my car to drive the van in all circs not vice versa.
If you can't run to those prices the the likes of KIA Sedona and Ford Galaxy fit the bill too.
like you I prefer to stick with as low a ratio as possible and would never go to 100% or compromise the towball loading as I want my car to drive the van in all circs not vice versa.
Yes there are a few heavy cars, without going to the luxury end the new model Citreon C5 is around 1700kg (my Mondeo is 1500kg), but I am not sure I could ever bring myself to buy a French car. Despite this while I this is just a guess, most cars have a maximum nose weight of just 75KG. Even the Bailey Ranger (their lightest range) have a nose weight of closer to 90kg if you aim for the ideal 7% of kerb weight.
Another thought - a proper car, what is that?
Our American friends have a family friendly named vehicle type Known as the SUV. Sport Utility Vehicle doesn't mean just a huge offroader and there are plenty of models such as the X Trail, Freelander, or CRV which fit the bill and are heavy enough to tow quite large vans and judging from some posts on here do it very well too!.
Happy Christmas
Our American friends have a family friendly named vehicle type Known as the SUV. Sport Utility Vehicle doesn't mean just a huge offroader and there are plenty of models such as the X Trail, Freelander, or CRV which fit the bill and are heavy enough to tow quite large vans and judging from some posts on here do it very well too!.
Happy Christmas
Proper car just means to me a car designed 100% for the road. I have driven various 4x4s, both big and small (for work) and they are all dogs on the road compared with my Mondeo. Indeed my local police force has just decided to stop using 4x4s as 4 police men were killed in a chase because their Shogun was such a poor road handler that they crashed.
william ,
I'm not sure that you're assessment that a fatal crash in a 4x4 means they are not good cars is fair.
4x4s are not meant for high speeds and certainly not the speeds police would sometimes need to drive at.
any car can crash , no matter how good the car or driver , if the conditions are wrong. Sadly that fatal crash probably had a unique set of conditions or events that consipred to the outcome.
4x4s are right for the job they are designed , as are sports cars and your Mondeo. I wouldn't buy a ferrari and hope to get 2 kids and a dog in the back and nor would the police buy one to go nicking crims.
But going back to your initial post , yes very right , as a high proportion of cars sold in the UK are probably in the Mondeo bracket (i.e mid size family cars) then surely the caravan manufacturing industry should have cottoned on to this and made sure they had family vans that would be able to be towed by these cars.
Pipe dreams I think , seems like they were shifting that many vans they were not bothered to look beyond the bubble and it bursting.
I'm not sure that you're assessment that a fatal crash in a 4x4 means they are not good cars is fair.
4x4s are not meant for high speeds and certainly not the speeds police would sometimes need to drive at.
any car can crash , no matter how good the car or driver , if the conditions are wrong. Sadly that fatal crash probably had a unique set of conditions or events that consipred to the outcome.
4x4s are right for the job they are designed , as are sports cars and your Mondeo. I wouldn't buy a ferrari and hope to get 2 kids and a dog in the back and nor would the police buy one to go nicking crims.
But going back to your initial post , yes very right , as a high proportion of cars sold in the UK are probably in the Mondeo bracket (i.e mid size family cars) then surely the caravan manufacturing industry should have cottoned on to this and made sure they had family vans that would be able to be towed by these cars.
Pipe dreams I think , seems like they were shifting that many vans they were not bothered to look beyond the bubble and it bursting.
Re the nose weight, it is now accepted that it is fine not to have 7% noseweight as long as you load up to the 75kg limit (BTW new Mondeos allow a 90kg noseweight).
For experienced caravanners a ratio of 100% is acceptable. This will allow for a more than acceptable caravan for your trusty Mondeo.
Even sticking to 90% ratio with my Zafira 1.9 CDTi I can tow 1475kg and my car is
For experienced caravanners a ratio of 100% is acceptable. This will allow for a more than acceptable caravan for your trusty Mondeo.
Even sticking to 90% ratio with my Zafira 1.9 CDTi I can tow 1475kg and my car is
- Mar 14, 2005
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Hello William,
All modern cars are tested as part of their type approval and the manufactures publishes the maximum allowed towed weight for each each vehicle. Some cars have a zero allowance, and others others can tow more than their own kerb weight. It is illegal to exceed this figure, however it is sensible to try and keep the trailer weight as low as possible.
Each manufacture specifies the maximum nose load the tow hitch can accommodate, and as for the max towed weight, it is a legal limit. The figures can change between different variants of the same model range, so you must check the limits for each specific vehicle.
Legally you can use the whole of the allowances, but it must be used sensibly. It is only the in the UK that the caravan industry have given guidance to caravanners and have suggested an arbitrary figure of 85%. Sensible though it is, it has no legal standing, and of course the manufactures limits must be observed.
The 85% (and 7% for nose load) guidelines, were adopted by the UK caravan industry many years ago. There are no test results available to show why these figures were accepted, and with little doubt, the improvements made in modern cars make the figures unreliable. The 7% nose load is particularly difficult to achieve, with the limited tow ball allowances modern cars have. The advice is to keep the nose load close, but just below the limit for the car.
Although the 85% figure is not legally enforceable, some insurance companies place limits on some customers, which means if the customer exceeds the limit, they have voided their insurance, and to drive without insurance is of course illegal. Check with your insurance company on the limits they allow.
All modern cars are tested as part of their type approval and the manufactures publishes the maximum allowed towed weight for each each vehicle. Some cars have a zero allowance, and others others can tow more than their own kerb weight. It is illegal to exceed this figure, however it is sensible to try and keep the trailer weight as low as possible.
Each manufacture specifies the maximum nose load the tow hitch can accommodate, and as for the max towed weight, it is a legal limit. The figures can change between different variants of the same model range, so you must check the limits for each specific vehicle.
Legally you can use the whole of the allowances, but it must be used sensibly. It is only the in the UK that the caravan industry have given guidance to caravanners and have suggested an arbitrary figure of 85%. Sensible though it is, it has no legal standing, and of course the manufactures limits must be observed.
The 85% (and 7% for nose load) guidelines, were adopted by the UK caravan industry many years ago. There are no test results available to show why these figures were accepted, and with little doubt, the improvements made in modern cars make the figures unreliable. The 7% nose load is particularly difficult to achieve, with the limited tow ball allowances modern cars have. The advice is to keep the nose load close, but just below the limit for the car.
Although the 85% figure is not legally enforceable, some insurance companies place limits on some customers, which means if the customer exceeds the limit, they have voided their insurance, and to drive without insurance is of course illegal. Check with your insurance company on the limits they allow.
- Nov 11, 2009
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You need to know what Ford's definition of kerbweight is. often car companies quote the ex works weight of the car which does not allow for the driver (75kg) or fuel load. In PC kerbweighst are nwo defined which is good. If you look at posts where someone has actually weighed their car then generally the kerbweight comes out some way above the manufacturers figure. Also you can load the car up and keep the van below its max rated weight, hence achieving 85% or better.
William you forgot to do a few calculations.
Look at the max weight of a lot of new caravans multiply by you 7% and the figure is often more than the 100 kg allowed by Alko.
Inlight of this I would say that we are already past the point whereby these guidline figures have any meaning in the real world.
Which is kind of funny when you look at all the people who post saying oh I would never break the 85% rule yet break the 7% rule without a second thought.
Maybe they just follow the rules that they like.
Look at the max weight of a lot of new caravans multiply by you 7% and the figure is often more than the 100 kg allowed by Alko.
Inlight of this I would say that we are already past the point whereby these guidline figures have any meaning in the real world.
Which is kind of funny when you look at all the people who post saying oh I would never break the 85% rule yet break the 7% rule without a second thought.
Maybe they just follow the rules that they like.
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For reasons already given, the 7% formula for noseweight is grossly misleading. It is far more sensible to abide by the limits specified by car and caravan manufacturer respectively, as these are the legal limits anyway.
With ever more towcars being fitted with ESP and caravans with electronic stabilisers like the AlKo ATC, the 85% formula is also becoming rather anachronistic, too. For a modern outfit fitted with one or both of these features, a 100% limit is quite realistic.
Besides, published data for kerbweight is only a guideline anyway as kerbweight is specific to each car and variances of up to 100kg over figures quoted in brochures, etc. are not uncommon.
With ever more towcars being fitted with ESP and caravans with electronic stabilisers like the AlKo ATC, the 85% formula is also becoming rather anachronistic, too. For a modern outfit fitted with one or both of these features, a 100% limit is quite realistic.
Besides, published data for kerbweight is only a guideline anyway as kerbweight is specific to each car and variances of up to 100kg over figures quoted in brochures, etc. are not uncommon.
Are caravanners going to be forced to pay hight taxes and fuel bills, extra driving tests etc just to drive 4x4s to tow their caravans in the future? Or should we be asking the caravan makers to produce simpler, smaller and lighter caravans for people who want to be able to drive a proper car?
Caravanners are in a Minority, Cars are made for the Majority. A Vehicle ( type ) is Available for what ever you want it to do. ie Tow a 1900kg van or one at 800kg everything is Available either Car or Caravan
Caravanners are in a Minority, Cars are made for the Majority. A Vehicle ( type ) is Available for what ever you want it to do. ie Tow a 1900kg van or one at 800kg everything is Available either Car or Caravan
The various formulae and 'rules' given in the hobby are all just that, guidlines and estimates.
There is no reason to not tow any oputfit you ike, however... if you are stopped by the Police who, in their opinon, state you are drinving an unsafe outfir then of course you can be prosecuted. Similarly, your insurance company may take an adverse view of covering you if you again have what is given by law to be an unsafe outfit.
What the various Organsisations have done is come up with guidlines, with built in safety factors, that allow the majority of people towing to know where they are in respect to making their outfit as safe as possible.
I disagree with Lutz's comments. Yes, having an outfit at 100% may be acceptable from a technical point of view, but it in no way takes into account the experience. or otherwise of the driver and road conditions. In addition, using 100% as a rule would sooner or later allow outfits to be on the road at 105% or 110%. Where do you stop??
I agree with his comments on kerbweights being usually a minimum, but again I make the point that having a bit extra on the margin of safety is no bad thing. The roads in the UK are by far the most congested in Europe and so require extra vigilance, especially as we now have so many non-UK drivers on them, who have little idea, or familarity of the road conditions here.
I think a little extra caution on the part of towing limitations is not a bad thing, especially if it saves even 1 life.
There is no reason to not tow any oputfit you ike, however... if you are stopped by the Police who, in their opinon, state you are drinving an unsafe outfir then of course you can be prosecuted. Similarly, your insurance company may take an adverse view of covering you if you again have what is given by law to be an unsafe outfit.
What the various Organsisations have done is come up with guidlines, with built in safety factors, that allow the majority of people towing to know where they are in respect to making their outfit as safe as possible.
I disagree with Lutz's comments. Yes, having an outfit at 100% may be acceptable from a technical point of view, but it in no way takes into account the experience. or otherwise of the driver and road conditions. In addition, using 100% as a rule would sooner or later allow outfits to be on the road at 105% or 110%. Where do you stop??
I agree with his comments on kerbweights being usually a minimum, but again I make the point that having a bit extra on the margin of safety is no bad thing. The roads in the UK are by far the most congested in Europe and so require extra vigilance, especially as we now have so many non-UK drivers on them, who have little idea, or familarity of the road conditions here.
I think a little extra caution on the part of towing limitations is not a bad thing, especially if it saves even 1 life.
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Hello SL,
I whole heartedly agree that caution should be used when establishing and outfit. It is sensible to keep the trailer mass as low as possible, but there is no sense to quoting an arbitrary figure such as 85%. As you eloquently point out it is is only a guideline with no legal basis, but what is it based on?
The fact is that the car manufacturers now have to specify what the maximum towing allowance is for each vehicle in the type approval process. This is not just a finger in the air approach, it is derived from evidence based testing and it is recognised as a legal limit.
Which is more believable?, a factually based figure, or a simple 85% that is widely accepted as being outdated due to vast improvements in vehicle technology and safety measures.
Blind adherence to a relative mass ratio of 85%, can lead to the misconception by the driver that an outfit is safe. This is not necessarily the case. The safety or more accurately the controllability of an outfit is determined by a far wider range of characteristics than just mass ratio's.
As for prosecution. If the ratio falls within the manufacturer's stated limits for the vehicle, the authorities cannot simply claim it is 'unsafe' on the basis of a mass ratio alone. The consideration of 'unsafe' would have to be qualified and accepted by the courts. It is perfectly possible however to have an outfit that complies with the mass ratio limits, but is unstable when towed at normal speeds. That could be deemed unsafe.
It is certainly true that insurance companies may apply an arbitrary lower mass ratio than the manufacturers stated limit, though they must advise their customers of it before issuing or renewing a policy. It is perfectly within the customer rights to ask for the reason that a reduced limit has been applied.
Safety should always be the primary consideration of every driver. It is sometimes said that trailer towers should be extra careful, but why? All drivers should be equally careful. If they cannot control a particular road vehicle safely and within the law, then they must not drive it.
I whole heartedly agree that caution should be used when establishing and outfit. It is sensible to keep the trailer mass as low as possible, but there is no sense to quoting an arbitrary figure such as 85%. As you eloquently point out it is is only a guideline with no legal basis, but what is it based on?
The fact is that the car manufacturers now have to specify what the maximum towing allowance is for each vehicle in the type approval process. This is not just a finger in the air approach, it is derived from evidence based testing and it is recognised as a legal limit.
Which is more believable?, a factually based figure, or a simple 85% that is widely accepted as being outdated due to vast improvements in vehicle technology and safety measures.
Blind adherence to a relative mass ratio of 85%, can lead to the misconception by the driver that an outfit is safe. This is not necessarily the case. The safety or more accurately the controllability of an outfit is determined by a far wider range of characteristics than just mass ratio's.
As for prosecution. If the ratio falls within the manufacturer's stated limits for the vehicle, the authorities cannot simply claim it is 'unsafe' on the basis of a mass ratio alone. The consideration of 'unsafe' would have to be qualified and accepted by the courts. It is perfectly possible however to have an outfit that complies with the mass ratio limits, but is unstable when towed at normal speeds. That could be deemed unsafe.
It is certainly true that insurance companies may apply an arbitrary lower mass ratio than the manufacturers stated limit, though they must advise their customers of it before issuing or renewing a policy. It is perfectly within the customer rights to ask for the reason that a reduced limit has been applied.
Safety should always be the primary consideration of every driver. It is sometimes said that trailer towers should be extra careful, but why? All drivers should be equally careful. If they cannot control a particular road vehicle safely and within the law, then they must not drive it.
John L - I cannot agree with you when you say that the 85% rule is is widely accepted as outdated.
All the published advice on the subject, by both of the UK's respected Caravan clubs and incidentally by PC magazine still recommend adherance to the 85% rule, so are you saying they are behind the times and wrong?
My current rig of Senator Virginia and Shogun SWB is about 70% and I can go to 115kg nose weight.
Say we Substitute a lighter vehicle which increases the ratio to 100%. My ability as a tugmaster will remain the same hopefully but the combos stability will be less and critical factors such as braking reserve and noseweight will certainly reduce which however way you look at it will result in a corresponding reduction in saftey.
All the published advice on the subject, by both of the UK's respected Caravan clubs and incidentally by PC magazine still recommend adherance to the 85% rule, so are you saying they are behind the times and wrong?
My current rig of Senator Virginia and Shogun SWB is about 70% and I can go to 115kg nose weight.
Say we Substitute a lighter vehicle which increases the ratio to 100%. My ability as a tugmaster will remain the same hopefully but the combos stability will be less and critical factors such as braking reserve and noseweight will certainly reduce which however way you look at it will result in a corresponding reduction in saftey.
There has been several debates over th emythical 85% kerbside wight of the tow car being implied as a safe towing ratio.
What in fact is law, is the maximum towing capacity as specified by your vehicle manufacturer. This figure may well be considerably higher than the kerb weight. Quite honestly, paying more attention to loading the caravan correctly (heavy items over the axle and low down)and achieving the optimum nose weight, will give you a stable oufit.
You do not need load the nose weight to the limit to have a safe outfit, in most cases 75Kgs works fine. You must always take the lower figure of car hitch weight or caravan hitch weight, as being the maximum permissable situation.
For the last ten years I've towed caravans with average family cars at 100% of the manufacturers tow capacity with no problems, even when faced with an emergencey stop at 50 Mph which is arguably most drivers nightmare.
Steve L.
What in fact is law, is the maximum towing capacity as specified by your vehicle manufacturer. This figure may well be considerably higher than the kerb weight. Quite honestly, paying more attention to loading the caravan correctly (heavy items over the axle and low down)and achieving the optimum nose weight, will give you a stable oufit.
You do not need load the nose weight to the limit to have a safe outfit, in most cases 75Kgs works fine. You must always take the lower figure of car hitch weight or caravan hitch weight, as being the maximum permissable situation.
For the last ten years I've towed caravans with average family cars at 100% of the manufacturers tow capacity with no problems, even when faced with an emergencey stop at 50 Mph which is arguably most drivers nightmare.
Steve L.
I don't know where William has been lately, but there are quite a number of 4 x 4 cars that are very fast and will give many sports cars a run for there money around the turns without going wibble wobbly.
They may not be to somes liking or budget, but they'll run rings around Mondeo's and plenty of sportier faster saloons.
They may not be to somes liking or budget, but they'll run rings around Mondeo's and plenty of sportier faster saloons.
- Mar 10, 2006
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I notice both the supporters of the new 100% tow ratio have been vocal again.
Thank fully some of our more safety minded members have had there say.
My comments on the 7% guide. Given the weight of some caravans it is no longer possible to achieve this. The caravan club in there tow car tests have admitted to towing below this figure.
So personally I try to get close to 7%, but not at the expense of ride level, steering feel, or rig balance.
I tow 1330kg with a noseweight of 80kg-85kg.This suits my xtrail, and provides a stable tow.
Each outfit will handle differently, so find your balance that suits you.
I find 93kg too heavy for my setup. But note I carry a lot of weight in the boot.
Regarding the 85% guide, this has been increased over the years by the caravan club, I think it was once 75% approx.
The best rig I ever had was my first. I towed a 1200 monsa with a 1.6 cavalier,90bhp. The car was at all times in complete control, perfect for a first timer.
I have never forgotten this, and having had since some poor rigs,85% or less is my target.
It makes absolutely no sense to me to advocate towing a caravan at 100%.
Further consider this. While you may consider your self towing at 100%, you may find you are well over this.
I be honest I haven't a clue what my car or my van weighs on the road. Sure I know the brochure weights but they are always approximate, and can never be anything else, short of each individual car and van being weighed and stamped at the end of the production line.
Not only that the rig will weigh different on I return trip, the nose weight will also have changed.
So am I towing at 85%, haven't got a clue, but because I have targeted 85% & 7% as my guides, I feel secure.
Finally the Xtrail weighs in at 1650kg approx, the van 1330kg approx. So 85% is approx 1400kg, this puts me happerly well below 85%.
Or does it? I have never weighed the car or van, i have fitted a motormover, a towbar.
Thank fully some of our more safety minded members have had there say.
My comments on the 7% guide. Given the weight of some caravans it is no longer possible to achieve this. The caravan club in there tow car tests have admitted to towing below this figure.
So personally I try to get close to 7%, but not at the expense of ride level, steering feel, or rig balance.
I tow 1330kg with a noseweight of 80kg-85kg.This suits my xtrail, and provides a stable tow.
Each outfit will handle differently, so find your balance that suits you.
I find 93kg too heavy for my setup. But note I carry a lot of weight in the boot.
Regarding the 85% guide, this has been increased over the years by the caravan club, I think it was once 75% approx.
The best rig I ever had was my first. I towed a 1200 monsa with a 1.6 cavalier,90bhp. The car was at all times in complete control, perfect for a first timer.
I have never forgotten this, and having had since some poor rigs,85% or less is my target.
It makes absolutely no sense to me to advocate towing a caravan at 100%.
Further consider this. While you may consider your self towing at 100%, you may find you are well over this.
I be honest I haven't a clue what my car or my van weighs on the road. Sure I know the brochure weights but they are always approximate, and can never be anything else, short of each individual car and van being weighed and stamped at the end of the production line.
Not only that the rig will weigh different on I return trip, the nose weight will also have changed.
So am I towing at 85%, haven't got a clue, but because I have targeted 85% & 7% as my guides, I feel secure.
Finally the Xtrail weighs in at 1650kg approx, the van 1330kg approx. So 85% is approx 1400kg, this puts me happerly well below 85%.
Or does it? I have never weighed the car or van, i have fitted a motormover, a towbar.
Ray,
I would suggest you take your outfit fully loaded along to your nearest public weighbridge. You may get quite a surprise when the printout is handed to you, I know I did. My van has a max weight of 1300 kg and there are only 2 of us. But we hit the scales at 1340 kg so some things had to come out, and yes, we had some empty lockers to achieve it. However, the outfit never showed any signs of instability, but it was still illegal. I also discovered my car weighed 60 kg more than the offical kerbweight, which is not unusual.
I would suggest you take your outfit fully loaded along to your nearest public weighbridge. You may get quite a surprise when the printout is handed to you, I know I did. My van has a max weight of 1300 kg and there are only 2 of us. But we hit the scales at 1340 kg so some things had to come out, and yes, we had some empty lockers to achieve it. However, the outfit never showed any signs of instability, but it was still illegal. I also discovered my car weighed 60 kg more than the offical kerbweight, which is not unusual.
For my car there are 3 'kerb weights'
The Vauxhall brochure quotes about 1560kg
The V5 quotes about 1613kg MIS
The car handbook quotes 1640kg!!!
So if I tow 1475 kg the ratio can vary between 90% and 95%!!!
The car plate has 2205kg GVW and 3780kg GTW.
On a separate aside I have never known anything as stupid as comparing the MTPLM of a caravan to the kerb weight of the car. You are comparing two unalike things. In my case when towing the car will generally have about 400kg of weight in it (three people, at least a weeks luggage and three bikes on the roof), why in the minds of the 85%ers does non of this weight count for anything? At least compare the weighted car with a weighted caravan (or an empty caravan with an empty car).
I know I have said this before, but I would rather tow (within the legal limits of course) using a lighter car which is solo more stable than a 4x4 with a much higher C Of G, but each to their own.
The Vauxhall brochure quotes about 1560kg
The V5 quotes about 1613kg MIS
The car handbook quotes 1640kg!!!
So if I tow 1475 kg the ratio can vary between 90% and 95%!!!
The car plate has 2205kg GVW and 3780kg GTW.
On a separate aside I have never known anything as stupid as comparing the MTPLM of a caravan to the kerb weight of the car. You are comparing two unalike things. In my case when towing the car will generally have about 400kg of weight in it (three people, at least a weeks luggage and three bikes on the roof), why in the minds of the 85%ers does non of this weight count for anything? At least compare the weighted car with a weighted caravan (or an empty caravan with an empty car).
I know I have said this before, but I would rather tow (within the legal limits of course) using a lighter car which is solo more stable than a 4x4 with a much higher C Of G, but each to their own.
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I agree with you, Zafiral, about the weight ratio reflecting a condition that is probably never encountered in real life. It is purely a formula on paper that is supposed to represent the worst possible case. The 85% figure is purely arbitrary has never been substantiated by any factual data.
As for kerbweight, the only figure that has any legal significance is the the one quoted on the V5. It would be the one which determines the MAM of the trailer which you may tow on a category B licence issued after 1st January 1997 (in addition to other conditions which must also be fulfilled).
As for kerbweight, the only figure that has any legal significance is the the one quoted on the V5. It would be the one which determines the MAM of the trailer which you may tow on a category B licence issued after 1st January 1997 (in addition to other conditions which must also be fulfilled).
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