Is it legal to sell your old towbar?

[Moley1]

Hi all

We upgraded our car shortly after taking up caravanning. This left us with a Witter towbar and Alko that was hardly used.

I have been told that you cannot re-fit towbars. Is this true?

Is it ok to re-fit Alko stabilisers?

Your comments would be appreciated.

Moley

 

[Lutz]

I see no reason why a towbar should not be re-fitted so long as care is taken to use new fasteners, such as self-locking nuts, where appropriate. Obviously, the towbar can only be re-fitted on a towcar of the same make and model. Same goes for stabilisers, although they are generally of the one-size-fits-all variety.

 

[Guest]

As Lutz correctly states the towbar can only be used on a vehicle for which it is designed. I am a little curious about the stabiliser tho'. Being Alko I would have assumed this was fitted to the caravan towhitch, or are there towball tension beam types from this Company?

Personally I wonder if selling the towbar is really an economic, or wise thing to do. For the price you may obtain you will have to give an undertaking the towbar is 'fit for purpose', and in the event of a subsequent accident, you could be open to litigation by any unscrupulous lawyer, if they could even suggest a slight flaw in it at time of purchase. How could you prove your innocence? Do you have a current test certificate taken after you removed it? Plus of course new bolts would need to be used. Bluntly while I have no doubts you are trying to be kind hearted to a prospective purchaser, in our current climate of 'claim and counter claim', I would personally dump it in the skip and sleep easily. It is similar to trying to re-use seatbelts, bluntly not worth the 'candle'.

 

[gary]

I see no reason why you should not sell your hardly used towbar, provided that is you are sure you have removed all the bit's and pieces that go with it. Most importantly all the spacer tubes that pass though the chassis and often get forgotten, these are crucial to safely refitting it to another car.

I'm not sure what you mean about the Alko bit, you can certainly swap the Alko hitch from van to van and save the towball for your new car

 

[Steve L]

I quite agree with Lutz.

You must use new nuts, bolts and spring washers. You can abtain from most tow bar manufacturers a new kit of these and the bushes, as they recognise that you may well change your car for a newer one of the same model and wish to take your tow bar with you. So the same phylosophy can be applied to purchasing a second hand tow bar.

I would however be attentive to the condition of the bar and refuse any that look very rusty or knocked about, as they might be at the end of usefull life.

Also ensure the manufacturers sticker is still present to ensure it is not a blacksmiths copy.

Steve.

 

[gary]

Quote: "Also ensure the manufacturers sticker is still present to ensure it is not a blacksmiths copy".

I take exception to that statement Steve, another one I presume thinks blacksmiths 'just' shoe horses?, albeit still needing seven years of training to get a 'Farriers' ticket to do it!!

Compare that with a head down a*** up welder churning towbars out on bonus

 

[Moley1]

Hi all

Thanks for the replies. It was used for about 8 months on a Peugeot 307. I had the Alko removed from my old van and replaced it with the original that I still kept. My new van also came with an Alko, so have one spare.

Cheers

Moley

 

[Guest]

I have no problem at all with fitting your existing towbar to your own new car. You are then fully aware of its provenance.

My only concern is that when you sell it to someone else you are entering into a Contract, and to my mind selling anything secondhand that has a safety aspect to its function is risky. Yes, it all probably will work out fine. But in the unlikely event of the new owner having an accident then blame may be applied to all sorts of places, and persons. All they have to do is suggest you had not fitted it correctly to your old vehicle and it became distorted slightly, thus weakening it. How then to prove your innocence. Companies have insurance cover to protect them, as an individual, you don't. Again, I just feel for the economic value to be gained, it isn't worth it.

But as they say, to each his own.

 

[Steve L]

I do appologise if you took exception to my comment "Blackshith's copy" Garry.

I am fully aware just how comprehensive a smithy's training is and also I'm fully appreciative of their skills to produce the most elegant wrought iron art work aswell as shoe horses.

You see, I'm a fully qualified multi skilled engineer and licensced proto type tester myself.

As for a manual welder being head down as you call it. I doubt that. These days robotic welding takes over even for small batches under 100. This has mainly developed from our incesant dis-respect for man's own pride in workmanship.

Over my 30 years of engineering I've come across some dam good copies of many items and can even confess to making a few my self.

My point was though was that as good as a copy might be if it is not made by an approved manufacturer then your insurance company will wash their hands of you should a claim ensue.

Steve.

 

[gary]

I do appologise if you took exception to my comment "Blackshith's copy" Garry.

I am fully aware just how comprehensive a smithy's training is and also I'm fully appreciative of their skills to produce the most elegant wrought iron art work aswell as shoe horses.

You see, I'm a fully qualified multi skilled engineer and licensced proto type tester myself.

As for a manual welder being head down as you call it. I doubt that. These days robotic welding takes over even for small batches under 100. This has mainly developed from our incesant dis-respect for man's own pride in workmanship.

Over my 30 years of engineering I've come across some dam good copies of many items and can even confess to making a few my self.

My point was though was that as good as a copy might be if it is not made by an approved manufacturer then your insurance company will wash their hands of you should a claim ensue.

Steve.

Hi Steve, So I should infer nothing more from your spelling of Blacksmith?!

I've only bought one towbar (3yrs ago) having made all previous ones myself and I had to spend considerable time 'finishing' it?

Most of the time was spent fixing the problems left by blunt hole punches and the rest removing weld spatter which was in abundance. The bar cost about

 

[Lutz]

No matter how good the blacksmith's copy (or, for that matter, a master welder's copy) is, it would be illegal without the appropriate type approval marking and that can only be obtained from the national agency that issues such documentation.

 

[NorfolkMike]

As usual Lutz is right.

Type approval is King.

It might taste right,

It might feel right.

It might smell right,

It might even pull right,

But if the 'van goes walkabout on the M25 at 7oclock in the morning and ruins the day for a few city traders the insurance company WILL cry foul. Trust Me they realy will.

ttfn

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Morely & Scotch Lad,

Assuming the sale of the s/h towbar is a private sale, and the seller is not a motor dealer or engineer by trade, then the buyer is absolutly responsible to assess the condition of the purchase and to ask the relevant questions before the sale is made - Caveat emptor - Buyer beware.

Regardsless of who the seller is, they must try to be open and honest about its description and condition, and not attempt to deliberatley hide makers marks, the condition, or the legal ownership of an item, and must according to thier ability answer truthfully all questions asked by the potential purchaser.

Under those circumstances, the towbar can be sold without comeback from the purchaser.

If the seller is in any way connected to a trade that might be expected to have enhanced knowledge of an item, then they cannot assume that a private sale will protect them from an action brought against them if the item is later shown to be defective and it is reasonable to assume the seller by way of thier trade would or should have known it.

 

[Steve L]

Lutz and Mike have clearly come from the same school as myself.

Unless the tow bar has got the manufacturers type approval label on it, use it as a boomerang, but duck low, because if you tow with a non recognised tow bar the insurance company will throw the sh one T straight at you and it'll stick like super glue.

Also I'm afraid it is very much buyer beware on the second hand market unless you can prove the seller is knocking towbars out as copies from the garden shed.

Steve.

 

[WatsonJohnG]

Gary see your point

My towbar is a Brink type approved.

It was used by another towbar manufacturer to copy and they then tested the copy on my car to see if it was OK

I was then supplied by them with the Brink at a reduced price for allowing them to use the vehicle.

Their towbar thus qualified for type approval as it was identical

A qualified experienced and diligent "blacksmith"with the right tools etc could no doubt a similar job.

Its just that these days everything has to have the right sticker and unless you have personal knowledge of the "blacksmith" its better to go with the branded well known makes.

I used to work across the road from a village blacksmith and he made me a couple of towbars in which I had complete confidence.

The Brink has since been transferred my me onto another X Trail using new washers and nuts and a torque wrench of course!!

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello John G,

I am sorry to be pedantic about this, the type approval is a legal documentcan and only be issued to the submitting manufacturer. With gas appliances, the approval not only covers the design, but the specified methods of manufacture and testing, deviations from these automatically requre additional approval. I do not know, but perhapse tow hitches also have such stringent approval procedures.

'Type approval' (as the process name suggests) requires that a sample of the product to manufacturing specifications with all instructions and documentation is submitted for testing, and either passes or fails the approval process.

As the copy was not manufactured under the same production regime with the same control of raw materials, production techniques and testing as the original, the copy cannot claim cover from the original type approval. In fact any such claim would be fraudulent.

I also suspect that if the original manufacture were aware of a copy being marketed and claiming type approval, there would be legal action against the copier.

Just as a matter of detail, the materials used in the copy may appear to be identical, but what if the wrong type of steel/casting has been used, what if the case hardening/chroming has not achived the required thickness etc. to all intents and purposes the copy appears to identical but may not be as durable, or amy not have the required deformation charateristics under abnormal conditions.

Of course the copier could submit thier vesion for type approval.

 

[WatsonJohnG]

Hello John G,

I am sorry to be pedantic about this, the type approval is a legal documentcan and only be issued to the submitting manufacturer. With gas appliances, the approval not only covers the design, but the specified methods of manufacture and testing, deviations from these automatically requre additional approval. I do not know, but perhapse tow hitches also have such stringent approval procedures.

'Type approval' (as the process name suggests) requires that a sample of the product to manufacturing specifications with all instructions and documentation is submitted for testing, and either passes or fails the approval process.

As the copy was not manufactured under the same production regime with the same control of raw materials, production techniques and testing as the original, the copy cannot claim cover from the original type approval. In fact any such claim would be fraudulent.

I also suspect that if the original manufacture were aware of a copy being marketed and claiming type approval, there would be legal action against the copier.

Just as a matter of detail, the materials used in the copy may appear to be identical, but what if the wrong type of steel/casting has been used, what if the case hardening/chroming has not achived the required thickness etc. to all intents and purposes the copy appears to identical but may not be as durable, or amy not have the required deformation charateristics under abnormal conditions.

Of course the copier could submit thier vesion for type approval.

That's what I thought had happened but at much less developement costs then incurred by Brink!!

 

[NorfolkMike]

Back to the origional question. Is it legal to sell a tow bar?

The answer has to be yes. The buyer MIGHT wish to use it on the back of his microlite to tow Christmas decorations around or on the back of his mobility scooter to carry his fishing gear.

Is it wise for the buyer to buy?????? Now that is the other story.

ttfn

 

[hgv dave]

when i didnt have much money years ago i bought a towbar from a scrap yard,i made sure that it was sound before putting it on my car and used new bolts (supplied from the engineers stock from work ahhem!)and had no problems with it,but when it came down to it,it was my choice and if anything had have gone wrong my responsibility