I don't think it will be cost that kills off caravanning, it will be lack of innovation to cope with changing technology and demands. Caravans are little changed in their construction since the early 60's, yes they are more luxurious and have more equipment in them but there is very little true innovation in construction and use of modern materials.
sound observation, but I am with david on this it is easy to work out the difference, well it is if your salary is what might be called average that is,emmerson said:
our first van a airatream 12ft was 5years old when we bought it cost £400 or 6 months wages, in 1969,
today a 4mtr van @ 5 years old will set you back about £5 to 6k depending on model. my last full time job payed £1000 a month or £6000 for the same period ie 6 months this make a modern van comparing the variables no dearer than it was in 1969.
Or in the case of CLs ,go out of business.
'If people are giving up Caravanning, then it will work out that sites will be struggling to fill up so they will drop the prices. '
Les
'If people are giving up Caravanning, then it will work out that sites will be struggling to fill up so they will drop the prices. '
Les
I don't think that is likely in the short term, true a commercial site needs the revenue in order to exist and there might be some juggling of prices or facilities, maybe offering deals at quiet periods, but on average a CL owner is not in it for the money, I cannot see how 5 vans even if at full capacity could be a called a business venture, more likely it is a way to suppliment their own incomes while making use of the spare land available, there will allways be a niche market for such sites, it is not the price that makes them desirable more the location and tranquility they offer.mullsy1 said:
colin-yorkshire said:
I have noticed that the price of some CLs is now equivalent to a proper site during the low to mid season. In some cases more expensive than the main site, but only by a £1 or two.
For anyone looking for a cheap site, outside peak season, take a look at the ACSI Card (www.campingcard.co.uk) or Camping Cheques (www.campingcheque.co.uk). They have some good sites between them, at around £15 per night or less, which buys a pitch, two adults, car and caravan, awning, electricity and one dog! Now that's a bargain.
Lady's Mile at Dawlish, for example, between the following dates: 12/04 - 26/05, 04/06 - 12/07, 29/08 - 01/11 is 14 euros (or the equivalent in pounds for the package outlined above).
Forest Glade is the same price, 14 euros, (£11.89 at today's exchange rates) between the following dates: 23/03 - 29/03, 16/04 - 03/05, 07/05 - 31/05, 10/06 - 15/07, 04/09 - 05/11 which is a good saving on their published price of £17.50 to £20.00 for the same pitch.
There are lots of others. definitely worth a look.
As far as doom and gloom is concerned, these days we never listen to the news, so we never hear about the next horrific event about to hit the economy, and I think we're much happier as a result!
Lady's Mile at Dawlish, for example, between the following dates: 12/04 - 26/05, 04/06 - 12/07, 29/08 - 01/11 is 14 euros (or the equivalent in pounds for the package outlined above).
Forest Glade is the same price, 14 euros, (£11.89 at today's exchange rates) between the following dates: 23/03 - 29/03, 16/04 - 03/05, 07/05 - 31/05, 10/06 - 15/07, 04/09 - 05/11 which is a good saving on their published price of £17.50 to £20.00 for the same pitch.
There are lots of others. definitely worth a look.
As far as doom and gloom is concerned, these days we never listen to the news, so we never hear about the next horrific event about to hit the economy, and I think we're much happier as a result!
The biggest challenge for moving forward as I see it is the 85% rule so enshrined by many. The next 7 series BMW will incorperate a large amount of carbon fibre in it's construction. Ford has just launched it's new 1.0 litre triple engine to replace it's 1.6 ltr petrols and will soon be launching a version of this with 177 bhp. These developments will deliver the economy required for the escalting fuel prices but most manufacturers are looking to take 10% of weight out of each new model generation they launch.
However on the caravan front many of us would shudder at the thought of saving 10kg to ditch the "micro" or worse stil take off the mover. New vans are being launched that are reducing in weight but not on the luxury front. So we either have the choice of continuing to convince ourselves that a new Sorrento is a must for towing a 1600 kg van or we look at the towing limits of cars like the Passat and Mondeo which have towing limits a few hundred kilo's over their kerbweights. I can hear the heads shaking already but technology in the form of stability control systems and high strength steels used in vehicle construction to reduce weight and increase torrisional ridigity are the way forward for those looking to continue with this hobby whom cannot afford the rising fuel costs.
As an aside those expecting site cost's to fall due to less visitors may instead find less sites due to closures as these site owners are facing all the same increased cost's as the rest of us.
However on the caravan front many of us would shudder at the thought of saving 10kg to ditch the "micro" or worse stil take off the mover. New vans are being launched that are reducing in weight but not on the luxury front. So we either have the choice of continuing to convince ourselves that a new Sorrento is a must for towing a 1600 kg van or we look at the towing limits of cars like the Passat and Mondeo which have towing limits a few hundred kilo's over their kerbweights. I can hear the heads shaking already but technology in the form of stability control systems and high strength steels used in vehicle construction to reduce weight and increase torrisional ridigity are the way forward for those looking to continue with this hobby whom cannot afford the rising fuel costs.
As an aside those expecting site cost's to fall due to less visitors may instead find less sites due to closures as these site owners are facing all the same increased cost's as the rest of us.
- Mar 14, 2005
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Hello Jock
Red rag to a bull!
85% is not and never has been a RULE, it is only a guideline. It has no basis in law and cannot be enforced. However though I do not like the one size fits all figure, the underlying principal of keeping a trailers weight as small as possible in relation to the tow vehicle is good sence. Good towing is about managing a range of criteria of which weight ratio is only one, and in my view the most important factor is driving habits, and of course not exceeding any limits.
Red rag to a bull!
85% is not and never has been a RULE, it is only a guideline. It has no basis in law and cannot be enforced. However though I do not like the one size fits all figure, the underlying principal of keeping a trailers weight as small as possible in relation to the tow vehicle is good sence. Good towing is about managing a range of criteria of which weight ratio is only one, and in my view the most important factor is driving habits, and of course not exceeding any limits.
- Mar 14, 2005
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Ever tighter emissions regulations are forcing car manufacturers to take weight out of their vehicles. On the other hand, there is a tendency to make caravans more like home-from-home with all the features and goodies that we expect at home. Who ever thought about having satellite systems, microwave ovens, underfloor heating, etc. in caravans 30 or 40 years ago? All these items cost weight. Both we and the manufacturers will therefore just have to get accustomed to raising the weight ratios and technical solutions will have to be found to make them safe. I predict that weight ratios of over 100% will become the norm in the foreseeable future.
wee jock said:
There is no technology in the world that will save you if you develop a snake or similar and the caravan with a MTPLM of 1800kgs is being towed by a Mondeo. Even towing our Lunar EW with the mondeo 2.0L diesel at 100% felt truly uncomfortable and dangerous which is why we swapped for an older 4 x 4.
- Mar 14, 2005
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That's quite a sweeping statement that's difficult to substantiate, Surfer. An electronic stabiliser such as the AlKo ATC or similar goes a long way in preventing an uncontrollable snake. And there's no reason why further technical developments can't optimise protection even more.Surfer said:
hi all,
this is all good stuff and very informative, however I get the "de'ja' vu" feeling about it, while I would not subcribe to the OP's pessimistic view of the future of our hobby it is obvious that the trends of the last decade or two cannot continue on it's present course and despite my reservations yes there does seem to be a head in the sand approach to devlopment and use of our vans.
if I may digress a little here there are parallell's to be had with my other hobby "fishing" when my father took me fishing some 50years ago he would carry all his spare kit in his jacket pockets and just have one rod and a landing net "Mr crabtree" style he did not have a seat or rod rest these were obtained at the bankside, he taught me how to fish. using skill and the resources at hand. as development in tackle and methods moved on we arrive at the present time were as now in order to go fishing taking all the must have kit along including the mini kitchen "Bivvy" ie tent and and fully equipped seat box and more tackle than one could use in a year, we drag around about 100 kg of kit to do the same thing my father did out of his pockets 50 years ago.
I believe caravans have gone the same way bigger, heavier, and more equipped, making them a little bungalow on wheels a true home from home however this comes at a price in weight and cost. at the same time as development in cars has gone the other way lighter more efficient and far more compicated to run and repair.
in time we may as caravanners have to go back to basics in order to continue with the hobby as expense rises and leisure time decreases how and where we caravan will become more important, and while for some the unthinkable situation of being without the fixed bed, sat tv, micro, central heating, ect we may have to, a more basic form of caravanning may become the norm just like carrying around 100kg of kit to go fishing is of no use when you are no longer able to carry it all.
colin
this is all good stuff and very informative, however I get the "de'ja' vu" feeling about it, while I would not subcribe to the OP's pessimistic view of the future of our hobby it is obvious that the trends of the last decade or two cannot continue on it's present course and despite my reservations yes there does seem to be a head in the sand approach to devlopment and use of our vans.
if I may digress a little here there are parallell's to be had with my other hobby "fishing" when my father took me fishing some 50years ago he would carry all his spare kit in his jacket pockets and just have one rod and a landing net "Mr crabtree" style he did not have a seat or rod rest these were obtained at the bankside, he taught me how to fish. using skill and the resources at hand. as development in tackle and methods moved on we arrive at the present time were as now in order to go fishing taking all the must have kit along including the mini kitchen "Bivvy" ie tent and and fully equipped seat box and more tackle than one could use in a year, we drag around about 100 kg of kit to do the same thing my father did out of his pockets 50 years ago.
I believe caravans have gone the same way bigger, heavier, and more equipped, making them a little bungalow on wheels a true home from home however this comes at a price in weight and cost. at the same time as development in cars has gone the other way lighter more efficient and far more compicated to run and repair.
in time we may as caravanners have to go back to basics in order to continue with the hobby as expense rises and leisure time decreases how and where we caravan will become more important, and while for some the unthinkable situation of being without the fixed bed, sat tv, micro, central heating, ect we may have to, a more basic form of caravanning may become the norm just like carrying around 100kg of kit to go fishing is of no use when you are no longer able to carry it all.
colin
Well I seem to be luckier than most , parking alongside my front drive is a great cost saver, I have a vectra estate ,have no problem with towing 95% , never have towed with heavy items behind the cararavan axle, I have the normal alko towball with alko stabilizer, unlike Surfer I have no decent cls or sites close to me, have to travel 90 miles to Ferry Meadows ( great site).
Fuel is the biggest bugbear, around here its 140.9 diesel(Shell) which matches the local Asda prices,There is a local Shell garage to Ferry Meadows which is also gives great prices.
I have often traveled to Scotland, but alas the present climate dictates closer pitches to home.
Fuel is the biggest bugbear, around here its 140.9 diesel(Shell) which matches the local Asda prices,There is a local Shell garage to Ferry Meadows which is also gives great prices.
I have often traveled to Scotland, but alas the present climate dictates closer pitches to home.
hi all,
Well I will now have to take back some of the comments I made about the trend and equipment levels of the modern vans,
as this afternoon we had a ride over to Kenmar caravans in mirfield who were having a caravan and equipment show weekend
they had the full range of Venus caravans on display and to be honest were very impressed with them, all the equipment one could want in a totally redifined way. clean lines with no water traps and rolled seams but still recognisable as a standard van, layouts were pretty standard across the range with all apart from the tiny 320 having end wash rooms but the vast ammount of cupboard space was amazing the only picky point being hanging space the wardrobe was more of a lage top cupboard, jackets and coats fine but dresses no way.
great but here's the crunch the WEIGHT ultra light the 500/4 has a MTPLM just over 1100kg 50kg more than the bailey 380/2 we have and the miro is identical. and can be towed with the meriva with weight to spare. I know the vans are called entry level but you would not know it.
to say I am impressed would be an understatement and will have one when we change the van. I have just seen the future and it's not as bleak as one thought.
colin
Well I will now have to take back some of the comments I made about the trend and equipment levels of the modern vans,
as this afternoon we had a ride over to Kenmar caravans in mirfield who were having a caravan and equipment show weekend
they had the full range of Venus caravans on display and to be honest were very impressed with them, all the equipment one could want in a totally redifined way. clean lines with no water traps and rolled seams but still recognisable as a standard van, layouts were pretty standard across the range with all apart from the tiny 320 having end wash rooms but the vast ammount of cupboard space was amazing the only picky point being hanging space the wardrobe was more of a lage top cupboard, jackets and coats fine but dresses no way.
great but here's the crunch the WEIGHT ultra light the 500/4 has a MTPLM just over 1100kg 50kg more than the bailey 380/2 we have and the miro is identical. and can be towed with the meriva with weight to spare. I know the vans are called entry level but you would not know it.
to say I am impressed would be an understatement and will have one when we change the van. I have just seen the future and it's not as bleak as one thought.
colin
- Feb 14, 2012
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Hi Nigel
Caravanning IS getting more expensive but you are absolutely right, everything else is as well.
Mrs S and I have just lobbed out a tidy sum for a new S2 Pegasus Bologna, which we take delivery of at the end of March (just got in before the price hike). The main reason we decided to go big (we currently have a Pageant Champagne) is that we usually have a week away overseas leaving the van behind and taking the plane to guaranteed sun. For two adults and an 8 year old, in the middle of school holidays, we were spending over £3000 for something half decent and that is without spending money. Lets be fair, you can still drive a long way for that kind of money! We love caravanning and although I am somewhat keener than the Mrs, we have decided the 'Staycation' is definitely the way forward. We have always used our van throughout the whole year to get the most out of it and in my book, there is no finer holiday, regardless of the season, mainly because of the fresh air, wildlife and the people you meet caravanning. A week in the West Country can be as little as £400! That is a huge saving on the cost of going abroad.
I do get the sentiment and frustration of those who forecast the end of the world due to fuel prices, but I have to say, I think this is a new beginning for caravanning, certainly not the end!!
Caravanning IS getting more expensive but you are absolutely right, everything else is as well.
Mrs S and I have just lobbed out a tidy sum for a new S2 Pegasus Bologna, which we take delivery of at the end of March (just got in before the price hike). The main reason we decided to go big (we currently have a Pageant Champagne) is that we usually have a week away overseas leaving the van behind and taking the plane to guaranteed sun. For two adults and an 8 year old, in the middle of school holidays, we were spending over £3000 for something half decent and that is without spending money. Lets be fair, you can still drive a long way for that kind of money! We love caravanning and although I am somewhat keener than the Mrs, we have decided the 'Staycation' is definitely the way forward. We have always used our van throughout the whole year to get the most out of it and in my book, there is no finer holiday, regardless of the season, mainly because of the fresh air, wildlife and the people you meet caravanning. A week in the West Country can be as little as £400! That is a huge saving on the cost of going abroad.
I do get the sentiment and frustration of those who forecast the end of the world due to fuel prices, but I have to say, I think this is a new beginning for caravanning, certainly not the end!!
A CL I have used in the past is apparently charging nearly 14 pounds a night (February).The only facilities are a standpipe and EHU.As stated earlier in the thread,the far flungs must be feeling it.As an aside,there was an article in the press recently which compared prices from 1977 to now.Some are a bit spurious ,but interesting to see how things have stacked up.Surfer said:
Here's 20 things still in the inflation shopping basket (1977 price in brackets):
- Rump steak £14.08 (£3.40)
- British shoulder of lamb £7.27 (£1.59)
- Back bacon £9.13 (£1.94)
- Pork sausages £4.38 (99p)
- Oven ready chicken £4.38 (£1.06)
- Cod fillets £12.24 (£1.90)
- White sliced loaf £1.20 (15p)
- Bag of flour £1.26 (26p)
- British butter £1.44 (29p)
- Cheddar cheese £8.12 (£1.39)
- Pint of milk 46p (11p)
- Sugar £1.07 (28p)
- Eggs £2.69 (48p)
- Potatoes 64p (17p)
- Bunch of bananas 83p (44p)
- Instant coffee 282p (94p)
- Cigarettes £6.72 (55p)
- Pint of beer £2.73 (38p)
- Petrol £1.33 (18p)
- Diesel £1.41 (18p)
Interesting post. Pity one cannot do it by the decade i.e. 1970, 1980, 1990, 2000 and 2010 as I think that will be a real eye opener.
Hello all.
The cost of caravaning is relative to the amount of use you get out of it. As we are retired we tend to spend at least 2 weeks away minimum and 6 weeks on average.Our biggest costs are fuel so having towed to our selected CL or ACSI site we unhitch and use the van as satellite while we use the Jeep solo for sightseeing.Our van is large and we could manage with a smaller one minus some of the comforts BUT it is paid for as is the Jeep and we will not be replacing them in the foreseeable future.
The CL sites are now becoming more formally managed in that they require non-returnable deposits and higher electric charges especially in the winter.People tend to expect more amenities which is odd as most of us buy caravans because of their built in amenities.A nice big pitch with hook up and access to fresh water and waste disposal is all that is really needed for most of us.The commercial sites in UK are right out of our price range but I can fully appreciate the needs of families.
Thursdays Child
The cost of caravaning is relative to the amount of use you get out of it. As we are retired we tend to spend at least 2 weeks away minimum and 6 weeks on average.Our biggest costs are fuel so having towed to our selected CL or ACSI site we unhitch and use the van as satellite while we use the Jeep solo for sightseeing.Our van is large and we could manage with a smaller one minus some of the comforts BUT it is paid for as is the Jeep and we will not be replacing them in the foreseeable future.
The CL sites are now becoming more formally managed in that they require non-returnable deposits and higher electric charges especially in the winter.People tend to expect more amenities which is odd as most of us buy caravans because of their built in amenities.A nice big pitch with hook up and access to fresh water and waste disposal is all that is really needed for most of us.The commercial sites in UK are right out of our price range but I can fully appreciate the needs of families.
Thursdays Child
hi,Thursdays Child said:
Of course it is, and also the way we use our vans has a impact on the overall costs, but things change over time, posters keep reminding us that the cost of fuel is the biggest hurdle with the cost of sites being the second, while this is undoubtedly true surely this has allways been the case, as I and others have stated caravanning has never been a cheap hobby it may be more expensive in some areas but the same in others, you just have to cut the suit to fit the cloth, as years ago one would go away tour around a large area using many sites on route, like Surfer we now tend to go to a smaller area and pick a site central to this and tour round solo.
also the sites we choose change somewhat. where when the kids were with us we would choose family sites with things to do for them we now go to small quite sites away from the hustle and bustle, CL's are better for this and also cheaper if you shop around and this offsets some of the extra cost of fuel. added to this our unit is now smaller than it used to be years ago the car is cheaper to run even with the van on the back and solo a years savings on fuel goes a long way to pay for a bit extra while away with the van.
next year if we are able I plan to get even more out of the van and may go for a solar panel and ditch the EHU. there are allways ways to save a bit extra with thought. far from being the end of caravanning I see it continuing for a very long time.
and it will still be the best way to get away from it all.
- Aug 23, 2009
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Well having just done half term I can't read all the posts but we'll be business as usual for the forseeable future. Yes the 800 miles we covered last week was a little eye watering at the pumps but while we'll use the little car for most of the local stuff we're not going to compromise on the van or the tug and when stuck 300 odd miles away from family and friends for the next 6 years at least we can't see an option that'll be any cheaper, well except staying with mother in law and that ain't going to happen in her lifetime!!! If the worst comes to the worst then I suppose I could go back to the grind of work but...........................
The other way to look at this question is to consider how many breaks you like to take in a year. We all see the adverts for those £49 stays at motels but I always find that they are not available on the weekends I am looking to check in. Unless someone is saying they are only going to take a couple of breaks a year then I think caravaning is still well worth the money. Even allowing for a reduction of a thousand pounds per year in the value of the van plus fuel costs of another thousand I can enjoy 4 nice weeks a year with two of them being on the continent. As a previous poster has said it is at least 3k for a decent resort holiday although you could probably squeeze in a few cheap deals in a static either side of the summer season for five hundred pounds each. I reckon this is way more than I spend in a full years caravaning including weekends.
No it is not very cheap but I doubt if it ever was that very cheap. One of the best ready reckoner's I think is the old how many weeks do you have to work to afford it and I bet it is less now compared to 1990.
So Ford Seirra + Sprite major against Ford Mondeo and new Sprite Major anyone.
No it is not very cheap but I doubt if it ever was that very cheap. One of the best ready reckoner's I think is the old how many weeks do you have to work to afford it and I bet it is less now compared to 1990.
So Ford Seirra + Sprite major against Ford Mondeo and new Sprite Major anyone.
Hi,most of us bought a caravan without much, if any, thought to the economics and eventually the not so dedicated give it up.The main reason given is cost. There is only one reason we would give it up and that would be because of poor health. The quality time we may have left is limited and so we intend to spend what is left doing what makes us happy.The only extra costs we incurr are sites fees and fuel because we have to eat at home or away.In fact we eat less when caravanning as we do much more walking and reading.I do appreciate the costs of taking children on holiday but it was the same for us when our kids were small.We bought a big tent to enable us as a family to have more than one weeks break on a holiday site.Himself was the only one bringing in a full wage as I did "a little cleaning job".The kids loved week ends away somewhere different to explore. We all have different criteria and must do what is best all round for ourselves. For those who do have to give up because of rising costs I am so sorry and hope that circumstances improve to allow us all to enjoy the only life we are given.
Thursdays Child
Thursdays Child
- Jun 20, 2005
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I don't think it's as bleak as some may think.
Last week I had a choice on a CL. Ordinary CL pitch with EHU £10.00 per night. Lakeside , beautiful view , EHU ,£12.00.
We ate in most of the time so on balance our bar and food bill was about the same as home. Whilst away my water, gas and electric are hardly being used, just the frost stat really. So there are some savings too.
This year we are experimenting with more short stays at CLs within approx 50 miles of home. It's amazing what's on your own doorstep
.
We do have a few longer breaks booked but so far the furthest must be the Lizard , Cornwall followed by Snowdonia.
Last week I had a choice on a CL. Ordinary CL pitch with EHU £10.00 per night. Lakeside , beautiful view , EHU ,£12.00.
We ate in most of the time so on balance our bar and food bill was about the same as home. Whilst away my water, gas and electric are hardly being used, just the frost stat really. So there are some savings too.
This year we are experimenting with more short stays at CLs within approx 50 miles of home. It's amazing what's on your own doorstep
We do have a few longer breaks booked but so far the furthest must be the Lizard , Cornwall followed by Snowdonia.
- Nov 11, 2009
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My largestcost is probably the depreciation on the tow car, which ordinarily is larger than I would have if I did not have the caravan. I did consider a large 'old' 4x4 just for towing but that would have ruled out long solo journeys eg this year it's Poland, Czech Reublic and Germany, and nice though our second car is the thought of autobahns in a Nissan Note does not appeal that much. But our second holiday in northern Scotland in the van will cost us more than 3 weeks solo in europe, where hotels in Prague, Krakow and Dresden are quite cheap if booked early. Ie 5 nights in krakow at £124 inc breakfast for two is a bargain and not much more expensive than staying on a caravan site.
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