Is the end of diesel nigh?

[camel]

I've got a good solution to the charging of battery powered Cars, it's easy buy a cheap Chino generator off E-Bay and keep it in the boot of your car to recharge the battery, it does not matter what part of the country you are in you will be able to recharge the battery, or better still if it is a hybrid vehicle just leave the car engine on tick over to recharge the battery, I want to make my toast every morning and don't want any old coal power stations tripping out,

 

[JonnyG]

I wonder what will happen to the Motorhomes
Most are based on Fiat diesels.

big Fiat group fan here but that's an interesting point motorhomes in Europe are mainly diesels based on commercial vans and there is nothing ive come across targeting commercial vehicles at the moment

 

[Raywood]

I wonder what will happen to the Motorhomes
Most are based on Fiat diesels.

big Fiat group fan here but that's an interesting point motorhomes in Europe are mainly diesels based on commercial vans and there is nothing ive come across targeting commercial vehicles at the moment

I think this is about to change as most firms have a petrol engine on the books that could be retuned and VW are due to launch an electric van suitable for use as a small motorhome or minibus.

 

[JonnyG]

I wonder what will happen to the Motorhomes
Most are based on Fiat diesels.

big Fiat group fan here but that's an interesting point motorhomes in Europe are mainly diesels based on commercial vans and there is nothing ive come across targeting commercial vehicles at the moment

I think this is about to change as most firms have a petrol engine on the books that could be retuned and VW are due to launch an electric van suitable for use as a small motorhome or minibus.

Or they could follow Fiat whose new 2,2 Multijet advance efficiency diesel engine uses no ad blu but meets and easily betters euro 6 NOX levels for diesels engines without effecting performance or Mpg which is alway the balancing act they have to do.. for now its only fitted in the Alfa Giulia but with is high torque output 450nm really doesn't need re tuning for use in anything.. i'm trying to remember the mark twain quote .".the reports of my death have been grossly exaggerated"..

 

[Dustydog]

Prof.
I get your smart charge point . But how impractical and what a backward step.I am not averse to all electric power but the reality is if I can fill with petrol or diesel when I want I don't want electric where I have to refuel o the terms you suggest.
We don't all drive in off peak hours if you get my drift

 

[JonnyG]

i have wondered for a long time how on earth could we go all electric and of course i based it all on today's technology and indeed data available for electric cars ,but electric cars are getting better and better and will eventually be able to travel further on one charge, charging times will improve , no doubt aided by the fitment of solar panels and energy recovery systems .. sometimes i wish i was 20 or 30 years younger just to see how things turn out

 

[Hutch]

Solar panel on cars sounds like a good idea, The aviation indusrty are thinkig about this. But also turning to diesel engines for smaĺ light aircraft.
You just cant win.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Prof.
I get your smart charge point . But how impractical and what a backward step.I am not averse to all electric power but the reality is if I can fill with petrol or diesel when I want I don't want electric where I have to refuel o the terms you suggest.
We don't all drive in off peak hours if you get my drift

With respect Dusty, i don't think you have grasped the smart charging idea fully. I don't have the details of exactly how it works, but they smart system would prevent all cars from being charged if the electricity supplies are not adequate at the time. This situation can change on a second by second basis, and the 'smart' controllers would only allow charging when the supplies are capable.They could balance the load in an localised area, or they can limit the current drawn from the supply to reduce the overall load. There are numerous ways this could be achieved, and its one of the technologies that will developed over the next few years.

From the figures i have seen, the majority of daily journeys made are on average less than 10 miles (Round trip of 20) , which is not vast amount, so most cars if put on charge every night would not be empty, and thus will not require a full recharge. So in some cases it only be a couple of hours, rather than a 7 to 8 hours of charging required.

Even though there are the commuters that will be using cars at peak times, there is still a very large percentage of vehicles not used for commuting, that could be linked to the grid to help power balancing.

Don't forget i also mentions the power wall concept where each property has its own battery pack which can carry the bulk of the power load during peak times.

Like so many things if you keep a focus on just one aspect of an issue, it may seem less than practical, when the bigger picture can offer diversity which can aid flexibility to a solution.

 

[Raywood]

The problem with reduced power making the charge take longer would be far more difficult for those undertaking longer journeys. With the Tesla you have a long range, but have to stop for an hour or so to recharge. The on board computer tells you where and how long you need, with a full charge taking an hour. This is not a problem provided you plan and have meal breaks when you have to stop, but if reduced power did not give you the full charge it would put your planning in jeopardy, so you do need to be sure of a full charge. It is not a problem at the moment but I can see it becoming one if the sales take off.

 

[otherclive]

The problem with reduced power making the charge take longer would be far more difficult for those undertaking longer journeys. With the Tesla you have a long range, but have to stop for an hour or so to recharge. The on board computer tells you where and how long you need, with a full charge taking an hour. This is not a problem provided you plan and have meal breaks when you have to stop, but if reduced power did not give you the full charge it would put your planning in jeopardy, so you do need to be sure of a full charge. It is not a problem at the moment but I can see it becoming one if the sales take off.

With my recent DVT leg problem perhaps an electric tug might be an advantage!

 

[ProfJohnL]

The problem with reduced power making the charge take longer would be far more difficult for those undertaking longer journeys. With the Tesla you have a long range, but have to stop for an hour or so to recharge. The on board computer tells you where and how long you need, with a full charge taking an hour. This is not a problem provided you plan and have meal breaks when you have to stop, but if reduced power did not give you the full charge it would put your planning in jeopardy, so you do need to be sure of a full charge. It is not a problem at the moment but I can see it becoming one if the sales take off.

Hello Ray,

Like Dusty you do not deem to have grasped the capability of the smart charging. It is well known the power generators have a few very high demand periods during each day, and to a large extent they can already predict when these are likely to arise, like home from work, and the cookers and kettles go on, half time during major football matches, or advert breaks on major television shows. Weather related demands. But these are peaks and do not last for very long. So often in a matter of minutes the demands can drop leaving the generators with over supply. With smart charging properly implemented, literally second by second the grid could send out instructions to smart chargers to stop taking power, or to modulate it, or even to supplement the grid to help even out the load in a controlled manner on the grid. The loss of charging time will be minimal an in the context of the majority of users they will still have a full charge ready for the morning.

There may be odd occasions where a really big battery pack may not be fully recharged, and this is a potential but small compromise.

If the uptake of electric vehicles were mirrored by the uptake of 'power wall' type home batteries, this would further reduce the difficulties.

 

[JonnyG]

hi prof the data that you have seen is this with regards electric car usage now or general car usage now? with regards to average journey times of 10 miles and less .. you see i wonder how that works when the hundred of thousands of cars are zooming up and down motorways doing journeys that far exceed short journeys and obviously without the luxury owners have who merely do 10 odd miles each way and frankly dont have to worry about smart charging or not getting enough charge in between their short journey as a quick charge would suffice or a proper top up charge at home would keep them going ..where as the thousands of cars parked up at service station across the country trying to take advantage of a decent top up of charge whist grabbing a quick coffee are at the mercy of a smart charge system that could depending on the time of day give them merely minutes of charge when they expected or wanted atleast 15 or 20 minutes of charge to help them along there long journey...because i expect in the future the masses of cars i see parked up taking a break at service stations today, in the future they will be expecting to get decent charging time in at that point of their journey and not be held to ransome so to speak by a smart charging system deciding where the electricity goes at any given time..

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Johnny
That is a valid question, As I said I haven't seen all the details, but I would assume the chargers at motorway service centres and the like, will not be charge limited, to enable driver to be on their way as quickly as possible.

Again there is research into building large local storage batteries at these service areas that would be continually " trickle" charged, to enable them to meet the local short term demands of drivers.

One of the factors that limits the time it takes to recharge a motive power battery is presently due heat generated whilst charging.This heat needs to be dissipated to stop the individual cells from being damaged. Tesla along with other companies are looking for ways to manage this heat, and if effective cooling can be established, charge rates can be increased, which will reduce the time each car needs to be connected to a charge point.

Globally there is a lot of research into alternative battery technologies, some of which look promising and will allow much greater battery power densities to be achieved,storing more power enabling cars to go much further.

In essence what may seem impractical in the light of present day technology is very likely to be come practical as technology advances.

 

[Dustydog]

What concerns me Prof is the constant reference to motorway services being the major charging points. We all know these places charge considerably more for fossil fuels today than the supermarket.No doubt they will continue fleecing the motorist.
It seems to me we will need vast car parks with hook ups. Filling with diesel takes me a few minutes. When electric cars can achieve similar rapid refills then I may be swayed.
SWMBO car has a range of over 600 miles on a tank full. I suspect it will be many decades before the electric cars can boast the same.

 

[ProfJohnL]

What concerns me Prof is the constant reference to motorway services being the major charging points. We all know these places charge considerably more for fossil fuels today than the supermarket.No doubt they will continue fleecing the motorist.
It seems to me we will need vast car parks with hook ups. Filling with diesel takes me a few minutes. When electric cars can achieve similar rapid refills then I may be swayed.
SWMBO car has a range of over 600 miles on a tank full. I suspect it will be many decades before the electric cars can boast the same.

I don't think I have referred to motorway services as being "a major charging point" They will be an important source of charging but most vehicles will receive their charge either at home or perhaps at work.

One of the major thrusts of development is rapid charging, I have heard but cannot confirm, but there are concepts of achieving an 80% charge in 5min! This is not pie in the sky, The principle cause of battery heating is the cells internal resistance, Either manage the heat (through cooling systems) or even better reduce the internal resistance, and higher charge currents could be employed. There are some promising developments in batteries that use different elements, which increase energy density and charge rates.

I seriously believe the future is a lot brighter than many commentators would have you us believe.

 

[Hutch]

Mercedes AA class.
https://youtu.be/iEjTwsfqHOY

 

[Raywood]

What concerns me Prof is the constant reference to motorway services being the major charging points. We all know these places charge considerably more for fossil fuels today than the supermarket.No doubt they will continue fleecing the motorist.
It seems to me we will need vast car parks with hook ups. Filling with diesel takes me a few minutes. When electric cars can achieve similar rapid refills then I may be swayed.
SWMBO car has a range of over 600 miles on a tank full. I suspect it will be many decades before the electric cars can boast the same.

Another problem I see which can be overcome is the space provided. I have only seen the charging points at Gretna services but they are all single car parking spaces and there is no way you could get a car and caravan into them. If caravans are going to be accommodated then more thought will be needed.
In the centre of the village where we live the council have added two charging points. The points are right at the back and in a position where you could not get a caravan near them before you even adress the question of getting it into the parking bay.

 

[Gabsgrandad]

But that's a problem even today Ray, many filling stations very difficult to access with caravan for diesel/petrol, at least with diesel can go through the lorry bays.

 

[Dustydog]

Also Ray
No one has considered the need for upgrading all the power supplies to cope with the fast chargers. Tesla uses 480 volts with something in excess of 100kw to obtain a fast charge. Not sure what fast is??
Will our 230 v system cope or will we all have to go on 3 phase or whatever
How about a battery swap system like our Calor Gas bottles?
Hutch I was thinking a bit more than your Duracell Merc

 

[ProfJohnL]

Also Ray
No one has considered the need for upgrading all the power supplies to cope with the fast chargers. Tesla uses 480 volts with something in excess of 100kw to obtain a fast charge. Not sure what fast is??
Will our 230 v system cope or will we all have to go on 3 phase or whatever
How about a battery swap system like our Calor Gas bottles?
Hutch I was thinking a bit more than your Duracell Merc

There is little need for a super fast chargers at home as in general there is no hurry when charging over night. If an owner needed a super fast charge at home becasue of their commuting demands, then part of their solution may be to have a power wall type product that can be charged from a combination of mains, solar or wind etc. whilst the vehicle is away, and by the time the owner returns it will be fully charged and able to provide a fast charge to the vehicle. So again no need to upgrade incoming domestic supplies.

I believe that as things stand at the moment the national grid (as differentiated from the generators) has sufficient capacity to meet all the peak demands of the UK - to put it another way the wires are big enough. The limiting factor which we are hearing about are the generating companies that do not have the capacity to produce the power to meet the worst case peak scenario, but they are more than capable of meeting the base load.

So when there is low demand and high supply, allow the difference to charge up batteries. When the demand rises reduce the charge to battery, when demand exceed the generator capacity, allow the stored energy in the batteries to supplement the generators to meet the peak demand which is usually only a short time. There should be enough over production of power from teh generators to recharge teh storage batteries at non peak times.

Using this process will increase the base demand as batteries are charged, but it should be within the systems total capacity so does not require new grid or domestic wiring.

 

[Dustydog]

Prof.
Your suppositions are probably ok for mobility scooters. But for a long distance tugger or 30k miles per annum I can't wait for an overnight charge.
Interestingly our own David Motton published an excellent article in the C&CC magazine this month concluding electric will not satisfy us caravanners.
That said who cares. I'll be in my box before it happens B)

 

[ProfJohnL]

Prof.
Your suppositions are probably ok for mobility scooters. But for a long distance tugger or 30k miles per annum I can't wait for an overnight charge.
Interestingly our own David Motton published an excellent article in the C&CC magazine this month concluding electric will not satisfy us caravanners.
That said who cares. I'll be in my box before it happens B)

Hello Dusty
I have a colleague who has traditionally dome about 30K per annum, and he has now taken delivery of a Tesla Model S ( don't know which model precisely) So far in 6 month of use he has not encountered a problem with range. I do have to admit there is a charging point at his office, and he will have one at home, but these are no more that 13A units.

Looking at the future based on to days level of technology, there may appear to be some issues. But those issues are challenges and will have to be resolved in one or more ways. And having said that perhaps it does mean we may have to caravan differently.

Towing is a particular challenge principally becasue it asking a car to work about twice as hard, Caravanners of the future may have to work differently, but hey its early days yet, and as many have pointed out, what caravanners need is big torque at low revs, which is what electric power and steam engines do better than any IC engine.

I have previously pointed out it may be hard to conceive it now, and it won't come on stream in a big bang, it will be a series of smaller changes as time goes by. Whilst I have been principally referring to electric systems, I'm not discounting other technologies that might arise, but I am certain the main stream will be electric in some form.

 

[Raywood]

Prof, my nephew has the Tessla S and despite using it for business and even going from London to Scotland has very little problem with recharging, but you do have to plan far more carefully than with a conventional car. He is in the supply industry and has a far greater knowledge of the implications of increasing numbers of these cars and he agrees that there is the generating capacity and the grid can handle it and sees no problem there. He does not agree with you though at street level where however you charge the car the net result is going to be far more power will be needed through the mains and there will need to be considerable investment in replacing the existing supply or adding additional cables. I am not an expert on this technology but he has the inside knowledge and I have to go along with that.
The only other people we know with an electric car have an older Peugeot which has a very poor range and who wish they had never seen it. The car simply does not have the range they need and although cheap to run does not suit them. My sister though has a neighbour with an electric car and they do not need long distances from it, they are more than happy with it, particularly the running costs.
At the end of the day you need to do a lot of research before leaping into this technology.

 

[JonnyG]

I've always thought hybrids were the way forward , well i did 10 years ago but somehow they dont seem to have caught the imagination of buyers and frankly the choices weren't always appealing and no doubt the lack of incentives to buy them didn't help. but i did come across an article last week ,as always i didn't mark it but it was saying something along the lines of a newer cheaper hybrid system running 24 volts if i recall rightly and some manufacturers are looking at it as its relatively simple to use on any petrol car!!! . in other words cheap ,cheaper than the supposedly £1000 a diesel car cost extra compared to a petrol car.. well it read something like that .so who knows as diesel sales decline maybe a decent variety of hybrids will hit the roads. assuming what ive read is true.

 

[ProfJohnL]

... He is in the supply industry and has a far greater knowledge of the implications of increasing numbers of these cars and he agrees that there is the generating capacity and the grid can handle it and sees no problem there. He does not agree with you though at street level where however you charge the car the net result is going to be far more power will be needed through the mains and there will need to be considerable investment in replacing the existing supply or adding additional cables. ....

Well we will have to agree to disagree on that point. From my perspective, if the peak demand is managed by smart charging, and or the use of power wall batteries, the existing cables in house, and street are man enough for the job.

Does he understand teh concept of smart charging?, becasue that is the key to open this possibility.