Jag XF 2.2d

[RogerL]

Cannot beat the good old torque convertor!

I'd add to that - torque converter + planetary geartrain, ie an old-fashioned "slushbox" but in a modern version with lock-up clutches so the fuel consumption penalty is minimal. I won't have anything else - even if that is gradually narrowing my choices.
I've driven the Subaru/Toyota torque converter + CVT and didn't like it one bit - and they're severely torque limited, not good for towing.
The VAG DSGs are divided between wet and dry clutch versions - the dry clutch DSG is very troublesome but the wet clutch isn't immune from problems - yet there's plenty of people with both types getting mega-mileage troublefree.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I think Roger has about right,

If you were to scrutinies any manufacturers products you will find some complaints about them. What isn't shown with equal accuracy are the numbers of owners who are trouble free. That's largely due to human nature to only kick up a fuss when something goes wrong.

I'm not saying we should disregard reports of problems, for the individuals concerned they may be quite serious, but they do need to viewed with caution, and with some regard for the real scale in context with the numbers of unit that are complaint free.

And just because a product has a complaint upheld against it, does not automatically make its design faulty.

 

[otherclive]

Prof,
I dont agree with your view particulary if the complaints exceed what could be considered a reasonable proportion of the vehicles sold. I have pasted a link which objectively discusses issues with some variants of the VAG DSG gearbox. Have a look at VAGs recalls in numerous countries. Its not the mechanical aspecsts of the gearbox per se that seems to be the problem it is the interactions with the software and sensor controls. Uk is not included as VW indicated that gearboxes built in Kassel were not affected, but the R/220/110 recall says differently, as do many UK owners via Forums and Warranty Direct. In Asia and the US DSG boxes have a 10 year warranty, but not in Europe.
Here is a link which might shed some further light on the issues.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct-Shift_Gearbox

 

[RogerL]

A DSG has many advantages - but two disadvantages:-
- DSGs have two clutches, so it's either bigger to accomodate two clutches which is harder to fit into a car or each clutch is smaller and therefore more highly stressed
- the gearchange is much quicker putting much more torque/shock stress through the clutches. It can be artificially slowed down to reduce those stresses but that defeats one of the major advantages of DSG.

I doubt anyone has detailed failure rates for the VAG DSGs, outside VAG anyway, but I wonder if the failure rate is higher among caravanners than non-caravanners - towing does put extra stress on any type of clutch or torque converter so is likely to be apparent more quickly to caravanners if the reliability is questionable.

 

[otherclive]

I think the source of the problems stemmed from the mechatronic controllers interaction with sensors, rather than any fundamental weakness of the mechanical components. My sister in law had a Golf with DSG which when she was reversing suddenly sped up and hit a wall. But she had suffered lack of smooth control in low gears when coming off her drive and in town or congested traffic. It seemed as if the control system can at times become confused when pullng away, and her dealer advsied her to ensure that when at a stop she engages neutral and puts the handbrake on. That way the sytem would see the correct sequence and not transiently cut back on fuelling. She now drives an MB.

 

[Surfer]

Sorry John it is a known fault with the software controlling Mondeo auto powershift gearbox and all Mondeos have the same issue. Many drivers have learnt to adapt to the problem or simply ignore it. I like to be in charge of a motor vehicle and not the other way around!

"all Mondeos" ??
It's been in production for over 20 years and used 3 completely unrelated automatic transmissions to my knowledge, possibly more, and they certainly haven't all used the same software.
The Powershift semi-automatic transmission is a DSG built by Getrag, first used in Mondeo in 2008 and NEVER used by Jaguar for any model, not even the X-type. The only other brand to use this transmission is Volvo, again from 2008, in their 2wd cars but not in any of their 4wd versions.
Even after 2008, not all Mondeo automatic models use the Powershift, some use the tried and tested conventional Aisin.
Ford have "continually" issued TSBs with revised software for the Powershift

Apologies I should have defined all Mondeos as I am referring to those Fords built with powershift transmission until earlier this year. The Galaxy apparently suffer from the same problem of hunting for gears at low speeds and then staying in neutral for longer than necessary. I have no idea what Jag uses for a auto box but nothing beats the conventional torque convertor box.

 

[ProfJohnL]

....... I have pasted a link which objectively discusses issues with some variants of the VAG DSG gearbox.....

Hello Clive,
Perhaps its not clear from my postings, I am not specifically defending the Mondeo or the Auto boxes, what I am pointing out is that a limited number of complaints about a product does not necesarily mean the product is generally faulty. The reason I have posted in this way is that one contributor has had a bad experience, and has persistently condemned the product and its derivatives. Now if it was as bad as he makes out, we would have seen major recalls, which we havent. So I am trying to suggest that readers should consider a broader view and not based on one negative report.

Wikipedia is a wonderful seed sourse for some information, and I'm not claiming their the link you have give is wrong, but it certainly is not fully objective.

A comment was made that the driver wants to be in charge of the car not the other way round, Now fundamentally with any automatic mode box you have given up a large chunk of control, and its a question of the driver adapting their style accordingly. That does not mean the auto box is faulty, just that its different.

I now have a VW DSG auto six speed, and it isnt perhaps as smoth or instant at pulling away from a standstill as a conventional torque converter or manual box, but its not dangerous, I have just had to change my driving to accomodate its character.

So I stand by my earlier comments.

 

[RogerL]

I have just had to change my driving to accomodate its character.

That still makes the car manufacturer responsible IMO - if any new feature on a car needs a change to the way it's driven, then it shouldn't be a surprise to new owners, indeed it should be one of the reasons they want to buy the car - if "having to change" is the manufacturer/dealer response to complaints then it's just a fudge.

 

[JonnyG]

I have just had to change my driving to accomodate its character.

That still makes the car manufacturer responsible IMO - if any new feature on a car needs a change to the way it's driven, then it shouldn't be a surprise to new owners, indeed it should be one of the reasons they want to buy the car - if "having to change" is the manufacturer/dealer response to complaints then it's just a fudge.

hmmm curious how one would apply this notion to the person who comes from low powered cars who needs to rev them to get any sort of motion when they move to a more powerful car? more so for the normal asperated petrol driver who then starts driving a modern turbo diesel that diesnt need to be reved in the same way as a petrol car. should manufacturers also highlight these differences? Ok you might have a piont as i come across many new to diesels who complain about there mpg and still rev them as if they were driving a peaky petrol engines....

 

[RogerL]

I have just had to change my driving to accomodate its character.

That still makes the car manufacturer responsible IMO - if any new feature on a car needs a change to the way it's driven, then it shouldn't be a surprise to new owners, indeed it should be one of the reasons they want to buy the car - if "having to change" is the manufacturer/dealer response to complaints then it's just a fudge.

hmmm curious how one would apply this notion to the person who comes from low powered cars who needs to rev them to get any sort of motion when they move to a more powerful car? more so for the normal asperated petrol driver who then starts driving a modern turbo diesel that diesnt need to be reved in the same way as a petrol car. should manufacturers also highlight these differences? Ok you might have a piont as i come across many new to diesels who complain about there mpg and still rev them as if they were driving a peaky petrol engines....

But we're talking about an automatic gearbox for goodness sake! There should be no "driving style" necessary - Idle/Go/Faster/Slower/Stop is all you should ever need in automatic mode.

A manual transmission, or automatic in manual mode, does need a level of driver knowledge/skill I agree.

 

[JonnyG]

I have just had to change my driving to accomodate its character.

That still makes the car manufacturer responsible IMO - if any new feature on a car needs a change to the way it's driven, then it shouldn't be a surprise to new owners, indeed it should be one of the reasons they want to buy the car - if "having to change" is the manufacturer/dealer response to complaints then it's just a fudge.

hmmm curious how one would apply this notion to the person who comes from low powered cars who needs to rev them to get any sort of motion when they move to a more powerful car? more so for the normal asperated petrol driver who then starts driving a modern turbo diesel that diesnt need to be reved in the same way as a petrol car. should manufacturers also highlight these differences? Ok you might have a piont as i come across many new to diesels who complain about there mpg and still rev them as if they were driving a peaky petrol engines....

But we're talking about an automatic gearbox for goodness sake! There should be no "driving style" necessary - Idle/Go/Faster/Slower/Stop is all you should ever need in automatic mode.

A manual transmission, or automatic in manual mode, does need a level of driver knowledge/skill I agree.

? strange those words you use sound familar go/faster add slow down are all things one would use to describe the accelerator pedal! and its function when used in any type of gearbox but depending how one presses it there is a variation of how fast you progress forward.... Aka auto box depends how you press the accelerator depend when and how ofter the box changed up and down.....different gearbox/clutches grab at different pedal heights surely this involves a different 'driving style' of sorts?
I recall surfers report when he had the mondeo Auto and there is no question in todays age that should not happen but i also remember well the all and nothing of early turbo cars where you had to wait a second or two before thrusting forward and i recal auto's of the late 70s early 80s that made more noise than movement from a standstill compaired to manual cars.what normally happened rightly or wrongly humans adapted to it and adapted pretty well too...shame its a dying art....

 

[RogerL]

Automatic should mean exactly that - just use the throttle pedal and expect the transmission to do all the right things smoothly - yes, more throttle means more power, so more acceleration, but no reduction in smoothness.
Older automatics used to do the above but no more - modern automatics have mostly got a manual/tiptronic mode as well as fully automatic which does react to driving style, as it should - so the best of both worlds, but in automatic mode it should be as simple as Idle/Go/Faster/Slower/Stop.

 

[xtrailman]

If you spend extra cash for a auto that isn't capable of selecting the correct gear, or a gear, without a time lag particularly at a junction with a limited window to join the traffic flow, then its clearly not fit for purpose.
I have only read of this problem with the twin clutch boxes, which also have a DMF, i really don't see the point of them.
A 8 speed or higher ZF box would be my choice if i ever get old enough to go auto.

 

[seth1]

I think my choice would be one that doesnt let you down,up to now my Aisin has been perfect,but saying that i,d be happy with a three speed borg-warner.I cant really understand the trend towards multi speed automated boxs,we know its for emmision purposes really and to keep engines in the sweet spot but more and more diesels are going towards two stage turbocharging giving a broader spead of torque so whats the need?

 

[otherclive]

If you spend extra cash for a auto that isn't capable of selecting the correct gear, or a gear, without a time lag particularly at a junction with a limited window to join the traffic flow, then its clearly not fit for purpose.
I have only read of this problem with the twin clutch boxes, which also have a DMF, i really don't see the point of them.
A 8 speed or higher ZF box would be my choice if i ever get old enough to go auto.

I don't understand 'old enough to have one' is it a joke or something deeper? In the 1980s the Swedish national police changed all their Saab manuals which had clutch / gearbox issues over to autos. Maintenance costs went doesn fleet availability went up and average acceleration times increased. I've driven autos since I lived in Canada in the mid 80s but also drive manuals as well. I find that the XC 70 with its 6 speed adaptive box is extremely responsive and combined with the twin turbo engine has zero lag. I rarely have to use kick down as the cars pick up is fast. Even my Pajero has change down via the lever, over drive control , and power or gear hold settings which makes it extremely flexible especially off road where its transmission modes allows it to 'eat land rovers' well when its ground clearance allows, but that is work in progress!!

 

[RogerL]

Turbo-charged diesels, like any petrol or diesel engine have a peak in the torque curve, which always coincides with maximum efficiency - the apparent broad spread of maximum torque is achieved by electronically limiting the torque - so there is just one optimum rpm for economy even if an engine has the same torque rating from 1,500 to 3,000 rpm.
That's why ever-increasing numbers of gears are being fitted to all types of transmission to ensure the engine spends more time at ar near maximum efficiency rpm.
It's a fallacy that manuals have better performance than a modern automatic - unless you've got the reactions of Ayrton Senna, gearchanges are slower on a manual than an automatic - even Ferrari use automatics with "flappy paddles"

 

[Surfer]

If you spend extra cash for a auto that isn't capable of selecting the correct gear, or a gear, without a time lag particularly at a junction with a limited window to join the traffic flow, then its clearly not fit for purpose.
I have only read of this problem with the twin clutch boxes, which also have a DMF, i really don't see the point of them.
A 8 speed or higher ZF box would be my choice if i ever get old enough to go auto.

That is the issue with the Ford auto box and this is even pointed out in the CC review of the car so I am not alone thinking there was / is still an issue with the box fitted into 2010 and later Ford models. I have driven automatics for many years and it was the first time I had been told to adapt my driving style to the car. This is contrary to advice given when doing an advanced driving test. It was even suggested by Ford that I used the manual side of the gearbox when approaching intersections or roundabouts!

 

[ProfJohnL]

You always have to adapt your driving to suit the vehicle, each car you drive even cars of the same model but in different states of wear and tear will all have unique characteristics which the driver must adapt to. In most cases the distinctions may be small and easy to adapt to, but here is a very small list

The bite point on a manual clutch
Tyre grip under hard acceleration and braking,
Braking effect
Performance under different loads such as towing,
Weather/road conditions
Headlight illumination and aim
Seat/steering wheel adjustments and pedal positions
Gear change gate pattern

This is just a small sample of things that you HAVE to adapt to when driving a vehicle.

It would be crazy to complain about a car just because the reverse gate position was not where it has been on previous cars you have had.

New technology often needs users to to adapt to the particular quirks the equipment has. Just because its different does not have to mean its wrong or faulty.

 

[RogerL]

I'd be a lot happier if these DSGs were called "automated manuals" rather than "automatics" - because that's what they are and it may get more people to check if they're really suitable for their needs before purchase.

 

[Surfer]

I'd be a lot happier if these DSGs were called "automated manuals" rather than "automatics" - because that's what they are and it may get more people to check if they're really suitable for their needs before purchase.

Spot on advice as in essence Ford no longer make a true automatic along with many other brands. If looking for an affordable car, I think that Vauxhall still have the conventional torque convertor gearbox. Some of the pricy marques have that type of gearbox also.

 

[JonnyG]

I'd be a lot happier if these DSGs were called "automated manuals" rather than "automatics" - because that's what they are and it may get more people to check if they're really suitable for their needs before purchase.

strange i have never thought of it that way you know 'automated manuals rather them automatics' but firstly what somebody doesnt drive a car so testing its suitability for there needs? and the term 'automated manual? does that make any sence what so ever? most of these new system give you the choice including full automated gear changess [automatic] so they are exactly that automatics, no need to do anything but put ones foot down on the accelerator pedal, there performance is far supperior to the old straight forward torque convertor which some have mentioned and maybe looked back through rose tinted specs. the 3 i had late 70s early 80s cars you could roll a ciggie the time it took one of them to move off the line..

 

[otherclive]

I'd be a lot happier if these DSGs were called "automated manuals" rather than "automatics" - because that's what they are and it may get more people to check if they're really suitable for their needs before purchase.

strange i have never thought of it that way you know 'automated manuals rather them automatics' but firstly what somebody doesnt drive a car so testing its suitability for there needs? and the term 'automated manual? does that make any sence what so ever? most of these new system give you the choice including full automated gear changess [automatic] so they are exactly that automatics, no need to do anything but put ones foot down on the accelerator pedal, there performance is far supperior to the old straight forward torque convertor which some have mentioned and maybe looked back through rose tinted specs. the 3 i had late 70s early 80s cars you could roll a ciggie the time it took one of them to move off the line..

I think that you may find that a modern torque convertor/epicyclic box bears no relation to the old boxes of yesteryear. Mines a 6 speed with twin turbos and has no lag whatsoever, and I only use kick down to see if it works as the take off more than meets my needs. Its also adaptive and modifies its cahnge ups/downs to suit the driving style and when connected to the caravan it senses the tow and will adjsut changes accordingly. The newer 8/9 speed conventional autos are even better and with the increased ratios keep to the cars optimum power/torque characteristics. They are almost CVT!

 

[JonnyG]

I'd be a lot happier if these DSGs were called "automated manuals" rather than "automatics" - because that's what they are and it may get more people to check if they're really suitable for their needs before purchase.

strange i have never thought of it that way you know 'automated manuals rather them automatics' but firstly what somebody doesnt drive a car so testing its suitability for there needs? and the term 'automated manual? does that make any sence what so ever? most of these new system give you the choice including full automated gear changess [automatic] so they are exactly that automatics, no need to do anything but put ones foot down on the accelerator pedal, there performance is far supperior to the old straight forward torque convertor which some have mentioned and maybe looked back through rose tinted specs. the 3 i had late 70s early 80s cars you could roll a ciggie the time it took one of them to move off the line..

I think that you may find that a modern torque convertor/epicyclic box bears no relation to the old boxes of yesteryear. Mines a 6 speed with twin turbos and has no lag whatsoever, and I only use kick down to see if it works as the take off more than meets my needs. Its also adaptive and modifies its cahnge ups/downs to suit the driving style and when connected to the caravan it senses the tow and will adjsut changes accordingly. The newer 8/9 speed conventional autos are even better and with the increased ratios keep to the cars optimum power/torque characteristics. They are almost CVT!

indeed i am not knocking it, yet many are knocking the semi auto non torque converter option as being worse than the torque converter option. But they miss several worthy comparisons. firstly the torque converter is still slower than the manual option in regards those excelleration test, the semi auto DSG] is not.. fuel enconomy the what you deem proper auto is still groups away from its manual contaparts ala co2 ratings the DSG and likes is much much closer to its standard manual counterpart..
So when one compares these differing system,maybe one should mention all the differences and not just the favourable..which brings me to your car fitted with twin turbo's to speed up lowdown boost and there by available torque lowdown which will benefit your launch and indeed the need of not needing kickdown. in otherwords your auto takes advantage of a decent torquey engine......Not the case of every auto out there either non turbo'd or making do with the single turbo! never the less everything improves with technology anyway

ps. clive this is from a Volvo site..... i havent found too many complaints but still opinions will alway differ this chap things the geartronic isnt as smooth as you do?
Being a Powershift owner and having test driven Geartronic I'd say Powershift is by far the better choice.

Changes are smooth but very fast. The car always feels like it's in the right gear unlike Geartronic which always felt like it was in the wrong gear or slow to change down/up. There is no MPG penalty with Powershift. I am now averaging 51MPG on mostly motorway journeys cruising at 65-70mph. When I'm off work and only doing short journeys it drops to low to mid 40s. To get that on a D3/4/5 with Geartronic you'll need to drive on a long straight road at 55, preferably downhill with a tail wind. They are thirsy but the 5-cyl diesel does have a unique if sometimes obtrusive note to it.

The Ford/PSA 2.0D is a quieter car than the D5.

I'm surprised to hear of early clutch wear - they are wet clutches so should be good for 150k+ miles.

Neither is it true that Volvo have dropped Powershift - it's available on V60/S60/XC60 with the Ford Ecoboost petrol engines.

 

[xtrailman]

Yes i've read the same problem with the ford boxes can also be found on some Volovs, and VAG.
It appears that some autos are better than others, but even the Evogue auto has been critised by whatcar.
Their advice is to await the release of the 9 speed box, the economy on the older box is also critised, low 30's being quoted.