Jeep grand cherokee or something else??

[Gumbo]

Like John says, a low weight ratio is no guarantee for a safe outfit.

No but it is a good starting point for anyone contemplating towing a caravan

 

[Lutz]

Nobody has ever heard of a weight ratio recommendation over here on the Continent (except for the 100% legal weight ratio limit in Germany for caravans to obtain approval for 100km/h instead of the normal 80km/h) but I doubt whether this has any effect on the accident rate. I can't say that I've seen more caravan accidents on the Continent compared to the UK. Very many people over here buy cars that are close to or right on the manufacturer's limit. In fact, German caravan forums are full of posts by people wanting to know how they can apply for a raised towing spec because they are upgrading their caravan but do not want to change the car.

 

[Gumbo]

Roads are different Lutz, we don't have the mass of Autobahns that you have we are on A & B roads etc.

 

[Gumbo]

One final point on this, whattowcar never exceed the ratio. The Caravan Club do NOT recommend towing above 85%. Who are the experts in this ???? I rest my case your Honour. Lutz don't take that as a put down I respect your views on a lot of issues, but on this one I feel the advice in not following good practice.

 

[Lutz]

I think you'll find that most accidents involving caravans and which are directly attributable to instability rather than driver error or other causes, occur on motorways, and this applies not only to the UK but on the Continent as well. This is because the speeds at which instability occurs are generally attained only on motorways or dual carriageways with similar conditions. Therefore, a dense motorway network will not result in more favourable conditions overall. If anything, the result should be the opposite.

 

[BrianStAlbans]

Small list but how about a Chrysler 300 C Touring - 3.0 CRD auto

BTW we tow twin axles at work with a quad bike . Never snaked one yet ;O)

 

[Lutz]

By the way, the 85% figure is purely arbitrary and not based on any verifiable data. No-one, and that includes the Caravan Club or other bodies that also support this recommendation, have ever produced any evidence that 85% is substantially safer than, say 90%, or why 80% would not be preferable. I rather doubt whether they would ever be able to substantiate their recommendation.

The fact remains, however, that the higher the weight ratio, the higher the demands made on the driver as to the need for extra due care and attention. For this reason 85% is a good starting point for a novice, but an experienced driver, applying appropriate care under the prevailing conditions, should be able to cope with towing right up to the manufacturer's limit.

 

[Dustydog]

Lutz

I hate to say it mate but you are skirting around this one.

It's simple. In your view is it ok and sensible for any of us new or old to tug a 1800kgs TA with a Mondeo?

Only a yes or no please.

You are our unsung expert!

Cheers

Alan

 

[Del_374232870]

Having had our Grand Cherokee 3.oV6 CRD now for over 30 months and towing a 1700kg t/a delta for us it must be the Grand Cherokee. We did look at the Sorento which is a capable tow vehicle but compare the technical specs and the Grand comes into its own. They both are around similar sizes and weights and both have good towing limits, but then you compare a straight 4 diesel to 6 cylinder V6 diesel, torque from the Jeep is well over 500kn which is great for towing, fuel consumption very similar but the Jeep produces a lot more power which leads to effortless towing, added also the Automatic box on the Jeep is recognize as one of the finest available

 

[Lutz]

Alan, you are asking for a clear 'yes' or 'no' answer. I'm afraid it's not as easy as that. Everyone should be able to judge for themselves what they are capable of handling. If you ask me would I do it, I would say 'yes' as an interim solution if there is no short term alternative. If you ask me would I recommend it, I would say 'no' because it would require so much extra care and concentration that a long journey would become rather tiring. I would therefore try to avoid long trips. I hope that answers your question concerning towing at over 100%. However, I have no similar reservations up to 100%.

 

[Dustydog]

Ever the diplomat Lutz, thanks. I am afraid I shall stick to the 4x4 but will bear the Mondeo in mind next time.

From what Del says the Grand C with V6 power sounds cool but is really no thirstier than a Sorie?

Cheers

Alan

 

[Lutz]

No need to apologise for your decision to go for a 4x4. If you do a lot of towing, you like 4x4's and can afford one, it won't be a wrong decision. My point, though, was that some people tend to overshoot the target and reckon that a 4x4 is essential for their purpose even though they may only be using the caravan a couple of times a year when they would be lugging a lot of weight around the rest of the time unnecessarily. Worse still, when they start moaning about the cost of petrol although there is no real need for such a big, heavy towcar.

 

[rob_jax]

Hi Alan,

The Jeep 3 litre diesel is the Mercedes V6 engine used in the current E-class, M-class and many other cars...

It's currently the best V6 diesel engine on the passenger vehicle market - it's quiet, clean, fuel efficient, powerful and produces high levels of torque...

The MB V6 power output does depend on the gearbox it's coupled with, but in a straight comparison with say, the quite good Ford family TDV6 used in Jaguar and Land Rover that's down almost 50 bhp and 100NM torque compared to the MB V6.

And the Kia engine is from a totally different generation...

Robert

 

[Dustydog]

Lutz

How about a 2hd hand Lexus LS 400?

Cheers

Alan

 

[Del_374232870]

As has been said the MB V6 is the finest diesel coupled to the Jeep Quadra Trac2 which is the finest 4x4 autobox and you have an excellent combination. Fuel consumption is around 20 - 22mpg towing and solo 32mpg on a run is not unknown.The only tow car I would swap for is the new Range Rover 4.2 but that is a different price range.

 

[rob_jax]

Gumbo,

You've mentioned the Caravan Club and alluded to them as experts, but I really don't see them in that light.

I can't think of one authoritative report that they've produced on a subject like stability, towing ratio or any other fundamental research into the dymanics of towing a caravan.

The CC guidelines that many people follow, such as a 7% nose-weight and the 85% match ratio, exist as folklore - if they were asked to produce the factual basis for those recommendations - they'd be hard pressed to do so.

Worse the 85% ratio is assumed by many to apply equally well to a car with no rear overhang and stiff suspension, as to a car with a long boot and soft suspension.

Questions concerning how car geometry affects stability, match ratios for modern car with electronic systems, etc., should be investigated and I would like the CC to do the fundamental work - and prove that they have technical department worthy of the name.

Robert

 

[Gumbo]

I agree Rob 100% but I would feel more comfortable should I be in an Insurance Claim situation quoting the CC rather than a chat forum !!!. With the absence of good technical advice we have to hopefully rely on what is available.

It's a little like ignoring a guidance note from the HSE and then ending up in Jail because you didn't follow the "guidance" which wasn't the Law ( just guidance ).

I am sure you will be aware of that one !!!. You have to follow what is available albeit Folklore or Not. If we take this to it's i logical conclusion, if you feel happy towing a 1856kg caravan with a Renault 5 no problem Mmmmmmmmm

 

[Dustydog]

Gumbo

I'm more with you on this than whatthe others say. Before Ihad teh Sorie 3 years ago I was towing at 92% and didn't I know it. Not a problem to me but I really had to be 100% alert. When I got the Sorie, well I can't remember what suction, shock waves etc are.

Look it's my family's life and my hard earned money in my rig so why do I need to be a macho man? Yes, I can tow at some of the weights described here but personally I value my comfort and . dare I say it without being chastised, my safety!

Cheers

Alan

 

[Gumbo]

I must make a comment on fuel, Rob I do see you as an expert on this subject and I would feel more than comfortable in quoting you. Just to make that point clear. I am not trying to point score on this issue just looking for good clarification. I have no problem towing what I have, with the vehicle I have. I KNOW it is a good match.

 

[Gumbo]

Should have said Caravan 1854kg MTPLM

Car Max 2850kg

Mass in service 2265kg

Technical permitted maximum towable mass of trailer braked 2800kg

unbraked 750kg

So Andrew Buy what you want and Drive what you want. and Bo**oc*s to what anyone else thinks

 

[rob_jax]

Hi Gumbo,

My concern is that people slavishly follow the 85% guidance and make assumptions that they will be "safe" without considering their car and their caravan.

I'm convinced that there are combinations of car and caravan that are below 85% that are not as stable as combinations above 85%, but there is no guidance on how to make sensible adjustments for certain classes of cars or different styles of caravans...

And you can't advance a discussion by suggesting that other people would advocate doing something silly and then criticise them for "their" idea that you've just made up.

Robert

 

[Gumbo]

My concern is that people slavishly follow the 85% guidance

Without anything else what can they do ????? This is the guidance from the Club, so we say that's rubbish ?? Don't think so.

 

[Lutz]

I would understand your point, Gumbo, if the CC (and others) determined the 85% by quantified data. However, as I have said before, it is totally arbitrary and there is no reason why it should not be 80% or 90%. There are so many other factors which affect stability just as much, if not, more than weight ratio. For this reason, no insurance company can legitimately make use of the the CC recommendation in case of a claim. The only legal fallback is the manufacturer's spec.

 

[Gumbo]

Agree Lutz 100 %

I just felt we needed to push this issue, if we can't do it on a caravan forum how can we do it ???????????

Lutz " The only legal fallback is the manufacturer's spec "

Yes agree again 100%

But how does the Caravan Club or Practical Caravan feel when giving out the Party Line of the " 85 % Rule "

Over To You Nigel

I do wish we could put that in Bold

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Alan.

Ultimately you have a free choice of which vehicle you choose, I am not going to gripe if you opt for a 4x4, but I do hope that having read the correspondence on this thread you can see that there are possible alternatives to 4x4's even if they do not meet your particular wish list.

Thank you for reading my postings and agreeing they make a logical argument.

Hello Gumbo,

I do not retract any of my postings on this matter, The ultimate weight limit is set by the vehicle manufacturer, who after all has been the most professional of all the bodies mentioned in this thread because they have conducted tests with verifiable data to satisfy themselves that the vehicles are capable of towing what they say. They would have a lot to loose if their limits were provably incorrect.

So are the manufactures are wrong? It is very unlikely. So technically a trailer can be loaded to the maximum specification, regardless of what the ratio works out at.

I have always agreed that it is better to keep an outfits weight ratio as favourable as possible. But there is no published technical information that proves the 85% figure is the best, or that the 100% figure is an absolute. They are both just arbitrary figures.