Law is an ass.

[602]

Hi,

Lets assume you have a Group B licence only. You are restricted to towing a trailer with a MGW of no more than the ULW weight of your tow car. I'll accept that there has to be a limit, and that OUGHT to be a fairly easy formula to get your mind around. You don't even have to be particularly good at doing sums.

It is accepted wisdom, that the lower the towing ratio (weight of trailer/towcar) the better.

Taking my own circumstances (ignoring my B+E), my old Series Land Rover has an unladen weight of about 1400kg, which means I can pull a similar 1400kg trailer, and still have a 700kg payload available. My Discovery had an unladen weight of about 2000kg, so I ought to be able to pull a 2000kg trailer. Wrong!

A Group B licence restricts me to a combined 3500kg MGW, thus dropping my towing capacity to 1500kg MGW. This is further reduced by any passenges and luggage carried within the Disco, which could be 500kg without really trying.

So a fully laden (500kg payload) Series Land Rover can tow a 1400kg MGW trailer. But a fully laden Discovery can only tow a 1000kg MGW trailer. Which is safest? Which is easiest to drive? No doubt there are many other, better, examples. ????

I'm not a lover of legislation, but I would like to suggest the following. All new towbars should be stamped with the registration of the car they are being fitted to, PLUS the towing capacity of that car - WRIT LARGE, no need to get down on your hands and knees to read it.

Similarly, the MGW of all caravans should be WRIT LARGE on the drawbar.

The idea is that nobody should be able to hook a trailer onto their car without being aware of the legality (or not). And Plod (affectionate term, unless expressed otherwise) will be able to recognise a "perp" without getting his knees dirty.

602

 

[Lutz]

You say that you would like to see the registration of the car on the towbar. I can't figure out what you think that would achieve. Can you please explain?

The towing capacity of the car is already clearly displayed on the VIN plate and it should also be shown in the V5c certificate. Having it on the towbar would not be possible because the same towbar may be fitted to vehicles with different towing capacity.

The MGW of the caravan should also be shown on the caravan's VIN plate although this is not always applied to the drawbar.

 

[602]

Hi,

That is the point, the towbar can be removed from the car it was fitted to, and put on a lesser car. Therefore any weight stamped on the tow bar is meaningless.

I lend you my car, so you can get you caravan home following you tow car breaking down. Would you know where to find my VIN plate? Would Plod know where to find it?

My idea is to make it easy to avoid breaking the law, and equally easy for ANYONE to see, if you do.

602

 

[Lutz]

Any weight shown on the towbar is meaningless anyway whether stamped on it or not and whether the towbar has subsequently been transferred to another vehicle or not, because it only states what the towbar is capable of towing, never the car's towing limit (for the reason that you mention). The powers-that-be should be aware of this and always refer to the VIN plate or the V5c certificate for defintive information.

The VIN plate is usually readily visible in the engine compartment, either on the upper dash panel or the front radiator crossmember, or somewhere on the door frame. Otherwise the same details will be shown in the V5c certificate. Anyone borrowing someone else's car to tow and not asking the owner or checking details himself first, is asking for trouble anyway. There really is no need to crawl under the car or caravan to convince yourself whether the outfit is legal or not.

 

[602]

Hi Lutz,

Ah, but my idea is that the vehicle registration and towing capacity are stamped on the towbar at the time it is fitted to the car.

OK, I had assumed that towbars must be fitted professionally these days, but I am probably wrong in that. It just seems silly that all the legislation is aimed at ensuring the towbar is up to the trailer, without ensuring the tow car is up to the drawbar.

I cannot think of any of my friends who have NOT towed something without checking the various permitted weights. One such friend borrowed a large car transporter trailer, dragged a Bristol 405 convertible back from Cornwall to Swansea. No problem until he reached his drive. His 1300cc Astra had front wheel drive, could not get a grip on the slope. He was certainly not a silly man .... though maybe what he did was. My Land Rover to the rescue.

Is there anybody else on this forum who will admit to just hooking on a trailer, assuming that everything was OK? That is one reason that I drive a Land Rover ..... it is unlikely that I will meet anything that it is not capable of towing, legally.

602

 

[Lutz]

I figure that if someone is so unconcerned that they don't check towing capacity by looking at the VIN plate or V5c certificate before hitching up, then they aren't going to bother to look at the towbar, either.

If a towbar is factory fitted, then the car will not have been registered at the time of fitting so it would not be possible to have the registration stamped on the assembly. And the same part number of towbar could be fitted to the same model but with different engines and hence with different towing capacity.

It should be plainly obvious that a 1300cc Astra is not going to legally be able to tow a Bristol 405 convertible whether there is a plate to that effect on the towbar or not.

 

[602]

Hi Lutz,

OK, not a good idea.

602

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hi 602,

I agree with analysis of the safety aspects the relative ratio's, but the point behind the licence restriction is it sets a limit on the total mass the driver is controlling from a legal perspective. It has no real concern with the mechanical capabilities of the individual car etc.

 

[Lutz]

I would just like to add that in order to allow freedom of movement within Europe, the licence categories are common EU-wide and any change would have to be agreed to by all member states.

 

[602]

Hi Lutz,

Thats what ought to happen, only in France, they deduct points from your licence, while in UK they add them. I wonder if there is a mathmatical scam in there. Add three points in UK for speeding, *** over to France, get caught speeding, have them taken off again. Probably not

What would happen if the French equivalent of a spotty youth (age 14)brought his 50cc scooter over to UK, and was caught riding it?

In UK, somebody who is severely disabled can drive a car at age 16. But would they be allowed to drive it elsewhere in EU?

The French licence does not expire at age 70, athough I assume there are other age restrictions.

Newly qualified drivers in France have to dislay a big "A" (for apprentice?) for two years after passing their test.

French cars are not subject to Road Tax, they pay tolls (except in Britanny, where somebody royal said it wouldn't happen. ???)

But to be legal in France, your UK car must be legal in UK. So you pay UK tax and French tolls. Seems a bit one sided?

The French MOT (Controle Tecnique) is every TWO years, and costs less.

French caravans have to have their own registration and insurance. I have the feeling that a British driver cannot tow a French caravan, but my memory is vague on this, and I could be thinking about something else. A French car cannot tow a UK caravan.

602

 

[Lutz]

I only said that driving licence categories are common EU-wide, not anything else. It would be very complicated if, for example, a category B licence allowed you to drive a 12 tonner without a trailer in one country, but a 3500kg car with a caravan in another. The idea behind an EU-wide licence is that you don't have to pass another test if you move from one country to another, but the licence that you obtained in your home country remains valid wherever you are.

The example of a 14 year-old in France riding a motor scooter in the UK is a poor one because the French youth doesn't need a licence for the motor scooter so he has no licence to produce if he crosses the Channel.

The country issueing the licence can still add age, and other, restrictions on the licence as seen fit and these remain valid wherever you drive. The same applies to the severely disabled able to drive at the age of 16, which you mention. They would be able to drive on the other side of the Channel with that licence, too. Our daughter passed her test at the age of 17 while abroad and was able to drive here in Germany on her licence, even though the minimum age solo here is 18 (much to the envy of her classmates).

The other examples that you mention concern vehicle taxation and that remains under sovereign control of each member state.

I think that after licences, vehicle registration is the next thing that needs to be harmonised within the EU. As you said, we had once thought of saving ferry costs by renting a caravan upon arrival in the UK, but there is no way that this can legally be done with the way vehicle licensing and insurance works at present. A foreign car can't tow a UK caravan because the caravan would not be covered by third party insurance as things stand at the moment and would therefore not be legal. Besides, the caravan wouldn't have a number plate either because the number plate on the car applies to the car only and nothing else. If I were to receive a speeding ticket referring to a registration on a caravan identical to that on my car, I could argue that it would be a case of someone else driving with false number plates because I don't own a caravan with that registration. I can claim to have no knowledge of such a caravan.

 

[Gafferbill]

I only said that driving licence categories are common EU-wide, not anything else. It would be very complicated if, for example, a category B licence allowed you to drive a 12 tonner without a trailer in one country, but a 3500kg car with a caravan in another. The idea behind an EU-wide licence is that you don't have to pass another test if you move from one country to another, but the licence that you obtained in your home country remains valid wherever you are.

The example of a 14 year-old in France riding a motor scooter in the UK is a poor one because the French youth doesn't need a licence for the motor scooter so he has no licence to produce if he crosses the Channel.

The country issueing the licence can still add age, and other, restrictions on the licence as seen fit and these remain valid wherever you drive. The same applies to the severely disabled able to drive at the age of 16, which you mention. They would be able to drive on the other side of the Channel with that licence, too. Our daughter passed her test at the age of 17 while abroad and was able to drive here in Germany on her licence, even though the minimum age solo here is 18 (much to the envy of her classmates).

The other examples that you mention concern vehicle taxation and that remains under sovereign control of each member state.

I think that after licences, vehicle registration is the next thing that needs to be harmonised within the EU. As you said, we had once thought of saving ferry costs by renting a caravan upon arrival in the UK, but there is no way that this can legally be done with the way vehicle licensing and insurance works at present. A foreign car can't tow a UK caravan because the caravan would not be covered by third party insurance as things stand at the moment and would therefore not be legal. Besides, the caravan wouldn't have a number plate either because the number plate on the car applies to the car only and nothing else. If I were to receive a speeding ticket referring to a registration on a caravan identical to that on my car, I could argue that it would be a case of someone else driving with false number plates because I don't own a caravan with that registration. I can claim to have no knowledge of such a caravan.

So what happened to the Norway trip?

 

[Lutz]

I only said that driving licence categories are common EU-wide, not anything else. It would be very complicated if, for example, a category B licence allowed you to drive a 12 tonner without a trailer in one country, but a 3500kg car with a caravan in another. The idea behind an EU-wide licence is that you don't have to pass another test if you move from one country to another, but the licence that you obtained in your home country remains valid wherever you are.

The example of a 14 year-old in France riding a motor scooter in the UK is a poor one because the French youth doesn't need a licence for the motor scooter so he has no licence to produce if he crosses the Channel.

The country issueing the licence can still add age, and other, restrictions on the licence as seen fit and these remain valid wherever you drive. The same applies to the severely disabled able to drive at the age of 16, which you mention. They would be able to drive on the other side of the Channel with that licence, too. Our daughter passed her test at the age of 17 while abroad and was able to drive here in Germany on her licence, even though the minimum age solo here is 18 (much to the envy of her classmates).

The other examples that you mention concern vehicle taxation and that remains under sovereign control of each member state.

I think that after licences, vehicle registration is the next thing that needs to be harmonised within the EU. As you said, we had once thought of saving ferry costs by renting a caravan upon arrival in the UK, but there is no way that this can legally be done with the way vehicle licensing and insurance works at present. A foreign car can't tow a UK caravan because the caravan would not be covered by third party insurance as things stand at the moment and would therefore not be legal. Besides, the caravan wouldn't have a number plate either because the number plate on the car applies to the car only and nothing else. If I were to receive a speeding ticket referring to a registration on a caravan identical to that on my car, I could argue that it would be a case of someone else driving with false number plates because I don't own a caravan with that registration. I can claim to have no knowledge of such a caravan.

Unfortunately, my wife had to go into hospital for what, initially, was supposed to be just a small operation as an out-patient. This would have meant a delay in our trip of only a couple of days. Then, due to complications, she had to go back for a second operation. This time it's taking longer and we don't know when she can return home and when she will have recovered fully, so the trip to Norway is off for this year. Depending on how much time we have and how fit she is we may do something less ambitious and take our caravan to the UK for a couple of weeks instead as we've already been invited to a wedding anniversary in August in the Midlands.

 

[602]

Hi,

OT .... but interesting.

Way back when, probably about 100 years go, one council (Carmathenshire?) saw nothing wrong with issuing a registration mark for a car, and the SAME registration for a motorcycle.

Their argument was that it was obvious which vehicle you had seen.

Er .... yes ...... but .......

602

 

[Gafferbill]

Unfortunately, my wife had to go into hospital for what, initially, was supposed to be just a small operation as an out-patient. This would have meant a delay in our trip of only a couple of days. Then, due to complications, she had to go back for a second operation. This time it's taking longer and we don't know when she can return home and when she will have recovered fully, so the trip to Norway is off for this year. Depending on how much time we have and how fit she is we may do something less ambitious and take our caravan to the UK for a couple of weeks instead as we've already been invited to a wedding anniversary in August in the Midlands.

I hope your wife has a speedy recovery.... health comes first.

 

[Lutz]

Unfortunately, my wife had to go into hospital for what, initially, was supposed to be just a small operation as an out-patient. This would have meant a delay in our trip of only a couple of days. Then, due to complications, she had to go back for a second operation. This time it's taking longer and we don't know when she can return home and when she will have recovered fully, so the trip to Norway is off for this year. Depending on how much time we have and how fit she is we may do something less ambitious and take our caravan to the UK for a couple of weeks instead as we've already been invited to a wedding anniversary in August in the Midlands.

Thanks, yes, we are keeping out fingers crossed.

 

[TaffJones]

Hi,

OT .... but interesting.

Way back when, probably about 100 years go, one council (Carmathenshire?) saw nothing wrong with issuing a registration mark for a car, and the SAME registration for a motorcycle.

Their argument was that it was obvious which vehicle you had seen.

Er .... yes ...... but .......

602

Lutz,

Where in Germany are you?

 

[Lutz]

Hi,

OT .... but interesting.

Way back when, probably about 100 years go, one council (Carmathenshire?) saw nothing wrong with issuing a registration mark for a car, and the SAME registration for a motorcycle.

Their argument was that it was obvious which vehicle you had seen.

Er .... yes ...... but .......

602

Just a couple of minutes off the A3/A66 junction between Frankfurt and Wiesbaden.

 

[TaffJones]

Just a couple of minutes off the A3/A66 junction between Frankfurt and Wiesbaden.

I'll be coming past that way 1st August. On my way for a stopover at the American Army Camp Garmisch and onto Lido delle Nazioni Italy

 

[Lutz]

Just a couple of minutes off the A3/A66 junction between Frankfurt and Wiesbaden.

You're welcome to drop by for a cup of tea or coffee as you are passing through. Just give me a call a day or so beforehand, just to make sure I'm at home.

 

[NickinFrance]

Hi Lutz,

Thats what ought to happen, only in France, they deduct points from your licence, while in UK they add them. I wonder if there is a mathmatical scam in there. Add three points in UK for speeding, *** over to France, get caught speeding, have them taken off again. Probably not

What would happen if the French equivalent of a spotty youth (age 14)brought his 50cc scooter over to UK, and was caught riding it?

In UK, somebody who is severely disabled can drive a car at age 16. But would they be allowed to drive it elsewhere in EU?

The French licence does not expire at age 70, athough I assume there are other age restrictions.

Newly qualified drivers in France have to dislay a big "A" (for apprentice?) for two years after passing their test.

French cars are not subject to Road Tax, they pay tolls (except in Britanny, where somebody royal said it wouldn't happen. ???)

But to be legal in France, your UK car must be legal in UK. So you pay UK tax and French tolls. Seems a bit one sided?

The French MOT (Controle Tecnique) is every TWO years, and costs less.

French caravans have to have their own registration and insurance. I have the feeling that a British driver cannot tow a French caravan, but my memory is vague on this, and I could be thinking about something else. A French car cannot tow a UK caravan.

602

To answer some of your points:

A UK resident doesn't get points (awarded or removed) for a French offence, although they can have their license taken off them on the spot. Which means they can't drive in France until they get it back.

I know that a 17 year old full UK license holder can't drive a car in France, where the age is 18, so I assume that a 14 year old French person can not ride their moped in the UK.

A French license holder aged 70 or over, needs a medical every 2 years to tow anything heavier than 750 kg

I live in Brittany, so don't pay road tax or tolls but I did have to pay a fair few euro to register my car & this fee, based upon CV, is paid every time a car changes hands.

It is perfectly legal for a non French registered car to tow a French registered trailer but not, as you say, the other way round.

It is also illegal for a French resident to drive a non-French registered vehicle in France, in the same way as it's illegal for a UK resident to drive a non-UK registered vehicle in the UK.

 

[DerektheSecond]

Just out of interest, the plate on a Scenic II, which Im quoting from memory as I have sold it for the following reasons, says I could tow a braked trailer up to 1300kg,however two things, renault quote these figures on a driver no load and virtually an empty tank, as soon as you put a bag of say potatoes in it the limit goes down to 1000kg, this made me illegal with my new caravan.

If I remember right the total weight of the car and trailer wasnt to exceed something like 2985 kg, on weighing the car with the rear seats removed 1/4 tank of diesel and no one in it it weighted 1695kg add that to the Caravan means I may have been in trouble.

The official figures from Renault as I still have the corrospondance from them are GVW 1950kg, Kerb Weight 1370kg, Max (driver only) towing weight 1300kg, Max (driver only) unbraked 650kg, The figures in the last paragraph are quoted verbatim from the letter I recieved but only the GVW, max towing weights for both braked and unbraked trailers and the max combined weight (gross train weight?) are quoted on the car.

Tha aside it was a 15dci and a great car for towing both for towing especially for economy.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Just out of interest, the plate on a Scenic II, which Im quoting from memory as I have sold it for the following reasons, says I could tow a braked trailer up to 1300kg,however two things, renault quote these figures on a driver no load and virtually an empty tank, as soon as you put a bag of say potatoes in it the limit goes down to 1000kg, this made me illegal with my new caravan.

If I remember right the total weight of the car and trailer wasnt to exceed something like 2985 kg, on weighing the car with the rear seats removed 1/4 tank of diesel and no one in it it weighted 1695kg add that to the Caravan means I may have been in trouble.

The official figures from Renault as I still have the corrospondance from them are GVW 1950kg, Kerb Weight 1370kg, Max (driver only) towing weight 1300kg, Max (driver only) unbraked 650kg, The figures in the last paragraph are quoted verbatim from the letter I recieved but only the GVW, max towing weights for both braked and unbraked trailers and the max combined weight (gross train weight?) are quoted on the car.

Tha aside it was a 15dci and a great car for towing both for towing especially for economy.

Hello Derek 2

Whilst I am aware of the unhelpful (and almost unique) way that Renault quote towing figures, this is not the Law being an ass but the manufacturer.

 

[Zafiral]

Derek, that is the exact reason why I no longer have a Scenic II. It was a fantastic MPV, but owing to Renault's low legal tow weights, it is a rubbish towcar.

 

[DerektheSecond]

"Hello Derek 2

Whilst I am aware of the unhelpful (and almost unique) way that Renault quote towing figures, this is not the Law being an ass but the manufacturer."

I wasnt critisising the law, theres always ways around legislation. but the fact if you go by the information on the manufacturers plate you can still be caught out.I only found out by checking the handbook and asking for confirmation from Renault, and yes Renault are unique re this for all their models