Lithium Ion batteries again

[Dustydog]

A leading U.K. Insurer via a Freedom of Information Act request to the U.K. Fire Brigades has ascertained over the last two years LI battery fires have increased by 93%. Of this figure EV cars make up 77%.

Should we be worried? I never leave any of the domestic stuff on charge over night nor for prolonged periods of time, especially the Mower and Electric bikes.

Electric car fires surge 77% amid growing concern over battery safety

Fires involving electric cars have surged by 77% in just two years, highlighting mounting safety concerns over the lithium-ion batteries.

www.am-online.com

 

[GUMPY]

The batteries used in caravans are a different technology, LifePo4, than the ones used in cars and E bikes, Li-on.

Not all Lithium batteries are created equal.

I wouldn't have a battery Mower or Bike unless it has a failsafe charging system which most don't.

 

[Sam Vimes]

I admit I didn't read all the article but think statistics like that often need qualifying. Percentages can sound bad because a change from 1 to 2 is a100% increase. Whereas the field population may be in the tens of thousands 2a

While fires where Lithium batteries were involved how many were caused by the battery? How many ICE car fires were recorded.

 

[JTQ]

Possibly related to EV ownership having also increased in the last two years?

I am very guarded about where and when I charge my eBike {Kalkhoff], including set my phone to remind me to take it off charge rather than risk remembering.
Had it since 2017, its the charger getting hot that has always concerned me, the battery pack never gets more than a couple of degrees hotter than ambient.

 

[Dustydog]

I admit I didn't read all the article but think statistics like that often need qualifying. Percentages can sound bad because a change from 1 to 2 is a100% increase. Whereas the field population may be in the tens of thousands 2a

While fires where Lithium batteries were involved how many were caused by the battery? How many ICE car fires were recorded.

Don’t shoot the messenger. Just an interesting article funded by a leading U.K. Insurer. I think the article is clear and I guess if we were to drill down ,more data will be “freely” available

 

[ProfJohnL]

I'm sorry Dusty, its click bait headlines. Without knowing the causes of the fires, you cant draw any practical value from the headlines. And with regards to the vehicle fires, to be of any real use the numbers should be compared to the numbers of fire involving ICE vehicles. I don't know the real statistics but by sheer numbers there are probably far more fires involving ICE vehicles than EV's but as a percentage of the population of each type of vehicle, I don't know if there is a big percentage difference one way or the other.

 

[IanB1485]

not getting into that augment ,only to say there is a radio four programme called More or less and it debunks the headline statistics often used by politicians or advocates of a certain position . A friend of mine uses these headline statements and wont buy an EV because of the "chinese use child labour to extract lithium to make the batteries" but is quite happy to buy any product which uses copper although other countries use similar labour to extract that element .As a lower order member of society ( retired professional) if my ( PHEV) or my wife's car (IEC) catches fire , then I expect the insurance company to try and squirm out of paying , but thats life , Just get on with what you like and deal with the crap that happens

 

[Dustydog]

I'm sorry Dusty, its click bait headlines. Without knowing the causes of the fires, you cant draw any practical value from the headlines. And with regards to the vehicle fires, to be of any real use the numbers should be compared to the numbers of fire involving ICE vehicles. I don't know the real statistics but by sheer numbers there are probably far more fires involving ICE vehicles than EV's but as a percentage of the population of each type of vehicle, I don't know if there is a big percentage difference one way or the other.

Not my Headlines Prof but sourced by a UK Insurer via the Freedom of Information Act from the Fire Brigades National Statistics.

These headlines do encourage debate😉

Sometimes it is hard to really know who is telling the truth. Just maybe the article explains why most Insurers shy away from EVs or charge high premiums.
I am sure the stats for ICEs are available from the FB if asked.
This was about increased frequency of fires nothing else. In my own family we have an EV , hybrid,, 2 E bikes mower and numerous Li appliances.

 

[JTQ]

What can we take from the piece, that on the face of it are facts:-

1)Fires involving electric cars have increased by 77% in just two years.

2)The number of these vehicles on British roads more than doubled over the two years.

From these two points I conclude the percentage of EV cars catching fire has decreased; maybe they or the charging technology are less prone as the technologies used advance and or users are being more “careful” ?

3) That EV fires are far more intense. These fires burn hotter, spread faster and require ten times more water to extinguish than a typical combustion engine fire.

From this I conclude it has to be a point of real concern particularly as its coupled with more of them.



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The batteries used in caravans are a different technology, LifePo4, than the ones used in cars and E bikes, Li-on.

Not all Lithium batteries are created equal.

True but all are variations of Lithium -ion technologies of one sort or another an aspect that the article does not delve into discriminating about. Plus it is not that we know all cars the same technology, or that all caravans use a differing one to all cars.

Google tells me the more common Lithium ion technologies used include, Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP), Lithium Cobalt Oxide (LCO), Lithium Manganese Oxide (LMO), Nickel Manganese Cobalt (NMC), Nickel Cobalt Aluminum (NCA), and Lithium Titanate (LTO)

 

[Buckman]

What can we take from the piece, that on the face of it are facts:-

1)Fires involving electric cars have increased by 77% in just two years.

2)The number of these vehicles on British roads more than doubled over the two years.

From these two points I conclude the percentage of EV cars catching fire has decreased; maybe they or the charging technology are less prone as the technologies used advance and or users are being more “careful” ?

3) That EV fires are far more intense. These fires burn hotter, spread faster and require ten times more water to extinguish than a typical combustion engine fire.

From this I conclude it has to be a point of real concern particularly as its coupled with more of them.



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True but all are variations of Lithium -ion technologies of one sort or another an aspect that the article does not delve into discriminating about. Plus it is not that we know all cars the same technology, or that all caravans use a differing one to all cars.

Google tells me the more common Lithium ion technologies used include, Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP), Lithium Cobalt Oxide (LCO), Lithium Manganese Oxide (LMO), Nickel Manganese Cobalt (NMC), Nickel Cobalt Aluminum (NCA), and Lithium Titanate (LTO)

Percentages mean nothing unless you have the actual figures however 77% sounds more alarming than 5 vehicles. After all the previous year maybe only two EVs caught fire, but this year maybe 3 -4 caught fire, but in the past year over a thousand more EVs were sold than the previous year.

In contrast ICE vehicles catching fire is a lot higher than EVs even if you looked at it from the number of vehicles on the road. Only last week on the motorways near us two vehicles caught fire. The big issue with EVs is extinguishing the fire. I now feel sick for supporting EVs evhen thoug I still think they cause a lot of environmental damage. LOL! 🤣 🤣 🤣

 

[Dustydog]

Whilst prepared autumn 2024 Honest John’s report does give a balanced view imo

https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/the-latest-car-fire-statistics/

 

[otherclive]

In Bristol two roof mounted solar arrays have caught fire. St Michael maternity hospital had to be evacuated last week, and the FB extinguished it within an hour. A museum wasn’t so lucky, it was gutted. The museum one was thought to be caused by a bird dropping a stone onto a panel. The hospital one is still under investigation. A modern equivalent to a chimney fire I guess 😂

 

[JTQ]

Percentages mean nothing unless you have the actual figures however 77% sounds more alarming than 5 vehicles. After all the previous year maybe only two EVs caught fire, but this year maybe 3 -4 caught fire, but in the past year over a thousand more EVs were sold than the previous year.

Percentages of course mean a lot but so do actual numbers, both in context are valuable in themselves. Eg the percentage chances of something happening to you, could be quite meaningful!
Then the wild speculation that a 77% increase could mean just 5 vehicles really is just a totally groundless numbers grab, as well as being mathematically impossible.

 

[Buckman]

Percentages of course mean a lot but so do actual numbers, both in context are valuable in themselves. Eg the percentage chances of something happening to you, could be quite meaningful!
Then the wild speculation that a 77% increase could mean just 5 vehicles really is just a totally groundless numbers grab, as well as being mathematically impossible.

That was an example and nothing more and not based on any mathematical formula so no need to get your knickers in a knot! LOL! 🤣 .

 

[otherclive]

I’m extremely disappointed with my grandson as he’s taking delivery of a new model Tesla Y AWD next Monday. It’s just over 12 months since he cancelled the lease on his last one and went down to one car. He’d actually ordered an ID7 Tourer but VW cancelled the order and wouldn’t give any date when, or if, orders would open again. So despite looking at numerous alternatives the balance fell strongly towards the new Model Y as its standard equipment inventory was extensive compared to other marques, and Tesla were very competitive on price too. The leasing arrangement is via Octopus and his company, but there’s no minimum term lease, and it is portable if he moves company, unlike his last one that incurred a substantial early termination penalty. I’ve asked him to park it up the road when he visits. 😱

 

[RogerL]

Tesla sales are down 50% in Europe so plentiful supply and good deals should be available.

 

[otherclive]

Tesla sales are down 50% in Europe so plentiful supply and good deals should be available.

The competitive lease cost and terms were one of the plus points for my grandsons decision. There is a view that some sales were waiting for the new Model Y release, but good deals are quite rare when new models are first introduced, so I guess there’s a strong dislike of EM, combined with more EV competition from other marques.

I hope the new Model Y performs better than Elon’s last three SpaceX launches.

 

[Tobes]

Articles like this infuriate me for all the reasons pointed out by JTQ, Buckman, ProfJohnL, SamVimes and Gumpy. Not only does the headline mis-represent the statistics (77% growth in fires but over 100% growth in EV population), but it also hides root cause in language. "Fires involving electric cars"; Were those fires started in the battery, or in the HV charging, or in the 12V system, or by a dropped cigarette, or by some other external event .

Here is a different article, derived from the same FOI request initiated by QBE, but with a very different spin.

QBE’s plea as lithium-ion battery fires surge by 93%

'Raising awareness around safe charging, use and disposal of lithium-ion batteries is critical to keeping people and property safe,' says practice leader

www.insurancetimes.co.uk

And here (with some digging) is the origional press release from QBE them selves.

Fires caused by lithium-ion batteries double in two years

QBE is a specialist business insurer and reinsurer.

qbeeurope.com

In reading this, it seems to me, the details on electric cars are provided for completeness, with the focus of the article being on the higher incidence of fires in e-Scooters and e-Bikes, both of which are less regulated that cars.

As with everything - this opinion is worth what you paid for it...

 

[Sam Vimes]

I'll state upfront....with a bit of Fred Drift...... that at the moment I'm very cynical and skeptical of AI, which is becoming more and more pushed on us when doing any sort of (re)search on the Interweb.

Responses can be skewed by how the question is posed. AI also feeds on itself and can repeat what other AI engines have already composed incorrectly.

We must not lose the ability to question what we're told.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I’m extremely disappointed with my grandson as he’s taking delivery of a new model Tesla Y AWD next Monday. It’s just over 12 months since he cancelled the lease on his last one and went down to one car. He’d actually ordered an ID7 Tourer but VW cancelled the order and wouldn’t give any date when, or if, orders would open again. So despite looking at numerous alternatives the balance fell strongly towards the new Model Y as its standard equipment inventory was extensive compared to other marques, and Tesla were very competitive on price too. The leasing arrangement is via Octopus and his company, but there’s no minimum term lease, and it is portable if he moves company, unlike his last one that incurred a substantial early termination penalty. I’ve asked him to park it up the road when he visits. 😱

Is that so he cant recharge it on your supply?

 

[ProfJohnL]

I'll state upfront....with a bit of Fred Drift...... that at the moment I'm very cynical and skeptical of AI, which is becoming more and more pushed on us when doing any sort of (re)search on the Interweb.

Responses can be skewed by how the question is posed. AI also feeds on itself and can repeat what other AI engines have already composed incorrectly.

We must not lose the ability to question what we're told.

Here, here.

 

[Buckman]

Around Worcester they are having an issue with cable theft. private homes and also businesses have cables stolen even though the cable is plugged into the car. They steal the cable for the copper inside. https://www.worcesternews.co.uk/news/25192969.can-protect-ev-charger-cable-stolen/

 

[ProfJohnL]

Whilst prepared autumn 2024 Honest John’s report does give a balanced view imo

https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/the-latest-car-fire-statistics/

The HJ article does put a wider based narrative to the subject, and the conclusions paint a far less dramatic and more balanced picture than the am online clickbait article.

After reading HJ's article perhaps JTQ may change his view about EV's

 

[Buckman]

Still would not buy an EV despite dealers lowering the prices. Forecourts seem to be full of EVs that they cannot shift. I hope the govt will see some common sense and postpone the 2030 deadline. If they don't, some ar manufacturers may go bankrupt. By the way, cost of buying a second hand diesel has increased significantly in the past few months due to demand.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I pass numerous car dealerships, and their forecourts are often full of cars, I hadn't realised full dealerships means cars are not selling. Gosh, the SMMT

must also lying about sales of cars.. you cant trust anybody these days.