Lithium Ion batteries again

[Buckman]

We bought the Lexus in March and every time we have been back the sale EVs are still up for sale and a lot cheaper than the ICE equivalent. New thee EVs are more expensive than the equivalent ICE vehicle. Same with the Toyota dealer where went first. The Toyota EV is a big car, but very nice however not our cup of tea. Even if we wanted one, we have no way of charging it at home as we do nto have a driveway and I suspect 100's of thousands of people are in the same situation.

 

[ProfJohnL]

We bought the Lexus in March and every time we have been back the sale EVs are still up for sale and a lot cheaper than the ICE equivalent. New thee EVs are more expensive than the equivalent ICE vehicle. Same with the Toyota dealer where went first. The Toyota EV is a big car, but very nice however not our cup of tea. Even if we wanted one, we have no way of charging it at home as we do nto have a driveway and I suspect 100's of thousands of people are in the same situation.

It is not in any doubt the current charging arrangements do not suit everyone yet. But how many drivers have a petrol or diesel tank at home? It's not such an alien proposal to use public chargers, and as newer vehicles have larger energy capacity and faster charging, or even battery swap systems, not having home charging may not be the big downside it appears to be at present. An increasing number of work places do have charging facilities, as do supermarkets, and other public places. I've even seen chargers in some very remote places at country parks and sight seeing spots.

As with any new technology, it might mean we have to embrace different ways of thinking about how to engage with it.

New EV models are supposed to have Vehicle to Load/Grid capability, which actually means in a power outage, in some cases you can actually run some essential items of domestic appliances. Try that with an ICE car.

None of this is pie in the sky, it is already started, but it does still have a long way to go to have the density of chargers to relieve charging anxiety.

 

[RogerL]

But how many drivers have a petrol or diesel tank at home? It's not such an alien proposal to use public chargers,

Drivers of petrol/diesel cars don't need a tank at home as their cars have long range - the cost of public chargers gives little or no cost advantage over an equivalent diesel but still has the inconvenience/time of mid-journey recharging.

Eventually, competition between providers will bring down the cost of public charging - but it needs a crystal ball to know when that will be.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Drivers of petrol/diesel cars don't need a tank at home as their cars have long range - the cost of public chargers gives little or no cost advantage over an equivalent diesel but still has the inconvenience/time of mid-journey recharging.

Eventually, competition between providers will bring down the cost of public charging - but it needs a crystal ball to know when that will be.

In case you hadn't noticed, EV ranges have improved markedly, and will continue to do so as battery development continues a pace., And its for that reason many people who cannot recharge at home will do so from public chargers much as they presently use fuel stations. When chargers are as numerous and wide spread as petrol stations, the barrier to owning or using an EV without home charging will no longer be a barrier.

Whilst home charging is a very attractive proposition at the moment, when EV's become the major means of personal transport, by then the the fossil fuels will have scaled down both in production and distribution with many fuel outlets closing, and become increasingly more expensive per Litre for the petrol heads, at which point I'm expecting the government to find ways of retaxing energy used for transport and thus removing the present day incentives to move to EV, but by which time the numbers of ICE on the roads will be reducing toward near nothing.

 

[RogerL]

In case you hadn't noticed, EV ranges have improved markedly, and will continue to do so as battery development continues a pace., And its for that reason many people who cannot recharge at home will do so from public chargers much as they presently use fuel stations. When chargers are as numerous and wide spread as petrol stations, the barrier to owning or using an EV without home charging will no longer be a barrier.

Whilst home charging is a very attractive proposition at the moment, when EV's become the major means of personal transport, by then the the fossil fuels will have scaled down both in production and distribution with many fuel outlets closing, and become increasingly more expensive per Litre for the petrol heads, at which point I'm expecting the government to find ways of retaxing energy used for transport and thus removing the present day incentives to move to EV, but by which time the numbers of ICE on the roads will be reducing toward near nothing.

Whilst demand for petrol will drop considerably, demand for diesel will remain high due to the vast amounts used by HGVs - which will eventually be supplanted by EV HGVs but that development is decades behind cars.

 

[Sam Vimes]

Even of public charging stations become as abundant as petrol stations people will feel agrieved at having to pay more than those who can charge at home.

If range of EVs gets to be similar to ICE vehicles, charging times at public charging points would also need to be the same as filling an ICE in my opinion to make them a no contest alternative. As would cost per mile.

 

[RogerL]

Even of public charging stations become as abundant as petrol stations people will feel agrieved at having to pay more than those who can charge at home.

If range of EVs gets to be similar to ICE vehicles, charging times at public charging points would also need to be the same as filling an ICE in my opinion to make them a no contest alternative. As would cost per mile.

I don't think it'll be necessary for EVs to match ICs for range and refuel/recharge time - just get close enough that they aren't inconvenient to use.

 

[Buckman]

In case you hadn't noticed, EV ranges have improved markedly, and will continue to do so as battery development continues a pace., And its for that reason many people who cannot recharge at home will do so from public chargers much as they presently use fuel stations. When chargers are as numerous and wide spread as petrol stations, the barrier to owning or using an EV without home charging will no longer be a barrier.

Whilst home charging is a very attractive proposition at the moment, when EV's become the major means of personal transport, by then the the fossil fuels will have scaled down both in production and distribution with many fuel outlets closing, and become increasingly more expensive per Litre for the petrol heads, at which point I'm expecting the government to find ways of retaxing energy used for transport and thus removing the present day incentives to move to EV, but by which time the numbers of ICE on the roads will be reducing toward near nothing.

How many EVs can do a range of 500 miles on a charge? Why buy an EV now with limited range when hopefully in a few years time a battery MAY be developed that has a minimum range of 400-500 miles with fast charging that takes the same amount of time that is used to fill up an ICE vehicle. Topping up at the local can be expensive so why bother with an EV when you have hybrid cars with long range? Maybe your EV if you have one has a fantastic range and doesn't require recharging as often as most EVs. Unfortunately most people cannot afford the cost of an EV like yours.

 

[Dustydog]

OMG! I really lit the blue touch paper starting this thread 🙀

QBE and a number of other motor insurers know with demonstrable evidence body repairs for EVs cost substantially more than ICEs which probably explains why in a lot of cases the premiums are higher.

I suspect the increase in EV purchases has a lot to do with HMG incentives and Corporate Company desires / “pressure” to be seen to be green?

Cutting all the differences of opinions on EVs which was never my intention,one factor sticks out like a sore thumb.

PHEVs have improved sales more than any other type. Ironically they are a mixture of EV and ICE. Does that tell us something 🤔. Maybe the PHEV could be the salvation for the caravanner😉

 

[GUMPY]

Who needs a 500 mile range?
My car has a 600 mile range on a full tank but I rarely do more than 300 miles in one journey and even then I need a break half way.
I could drive to MIL, 250miles, and back on a tankful but never do I always start any long journey with a full tank and would do the same if it was electric.
I am considering buying a used EV to replace our gas guzzling 4x4. The EV has a sub 100mile range since all our local journeys are less than 50 miles and it would charge overnight and I would still have the Yeti for towing and distance.
The whole range thing is a complete red herring.

 

[Buckman]

Who needs a 500 mile range?
The whole range thing is a complete red herring.

Not at all as the "500 mile" was used as an example as that is the range on our hybrid Yaris. On bigger EVs the range is probably significantly reduced and currently about on average 200 miles depending on air con or heating being used. Then there is the time taken to recharge. However for a town car, probably great so good luck with your impending purchase .

Only last week we saw a lady who had forgotten to recharge and the car came to a dead stop on a main road. No one could shift it as probably too heavy and there was a slight incline in the road. With an ICE vehicle at least you can pop over to the nearest garage and get a couple of litres. I suspect with an EV, it will need to be uplifted. I don't think that the lady in question will ever forget to recharge the vehicle again. LOL!

 

[Sam Vimes]

People will have different needs depending on where and how they live. If like me you live in a rural area with large distances between villages and towns and only one or two roads going that way, then range is very important.

Especially when a road gets closed due to an incident and your faced with an 150 mile detour with no chance of even getting diesel on the way.

 

[RogerL]

Who needs a 500 mile range?
My car has a 600 mile range on a full tank but I rarely do more than 300 miles in one journey and even then I need a break half way.
I could drive to MIL, 250miles, and back on a tankful but never do I always start any long journey with a full tank and would do the same if it was electric.
I am considering buying a used EV to replace our gas guzzling 4x4. The EV has a sub 100mile range since all our local journeys are less than 50 miles and it would charge overnight and I would still have the Yeti for towing and distance.
The whole range thing is a complete red herring.

I disagree! All my long journeys are towing a caravan, up to 560 miles - stopping for breaks where there would be nowhere to charge and stopping overnight where there's nowhere to charge - I can't tow 560 miles now without refueling but takes just 5 mins and plenty of choice.

Towing with an EV would mean such a fundamental change to towing long distance that I'm not considering it.

I'd consider a diesel PHEV but they seem few and far between.

 

[GUMPY]

I disagree! All my long journeys are towing a caravan, up to 560 miles - stopping for breaks where there would be nowhere to charge and stopping overnight where there's nowhere to charge - I can't tow 560 miles now without refueling but takes just 5 mins and plenty of choice.

Towing with an EV would mean such a fundamental change to towing long distance that I'm not considering it.

I'd consider a diesel PHEV but they seem few and far between.

Which is why I keep my Yeti.
Different tools for different jobs.
EV are fine if you are not lugging 1.5Tonne behind you.
Towing is a minority sport most normal people don't do it.

 

[Oscarmax]

We may have to cross this bridge next August on our Suzuki Across PHEV, the lease company may allow us to extend our lease another 24 month dependant on mileage, however, if they choose not to extend our lease we will probably of down the full EV route i.e Hyundia Ioniq 5 or similar, we accept we may have to make some compromises and book shorter distances between sites.

Caravanning is just a leisure hobby, we shall just adapt life is to short to introduce problems which don't really exist.

 

[Dustydog]

Towing is a minority sport most normal people don't do it.

Normal🙀

 

[RogerL]

Which is why I keep my Yeti.
Different tools for different jobs.
EV are fine if you are not lugging 1.5Tonne behind you.
Towing is a minority sport most normal people don't do it.

I can't justify the expense of running 2 cars - I tried it for 3 years and proved more expensive despite the 2nd car's running costs being a fraction of my big diesel guzzler.

 

[otherclive]

I guess there would have been a similar debates around the early 1900s in Practical Equine where those using technology going back to pre Roman times felt that these new things with engines were threatening their way of life and livelihoods. We are in the middle of a period of strategic change and EVs are seen as an answer to attaining our legally required air quality standards, and more importantly to combat global warming. So as in any period of change there will be those that embrace it, and those who are reluctant to embrace it for various reasons. In our small enclave of 12 houses, there are 3 EV, 2 PHEVS and my lonely hybrid. One has just changed her three year old Range Rover for a top spec BYD. Chatting to them all charge at home or work, but aren’t bothered about charging at commercial points when required and don’t see it as an inconvenience. Looking at new models of EV as they are released the declared ranges are increasing, and we shouldn’t loose sight of the fact that battery developments are continuing apace. But fundamentally meeting the needs of caravanning isn’t going to be easy given the need for drive through charging stations. Imagine the requirements for the M5 to Devon at peak holiday times. So as Dusty proposes PHEV might be an option, at least until 2035.

 

[otherclive]

Which is why I keep my Yeti.
Different tools for different jobs.
EV are fine if you are not lugging 1.5Tonne behind you.
Towing is a minority sport most normal people don't do it.

With the financial pressures on younger generations they are probably less likely to take up caravanning than we did, and also their interests and leisure needs have changed. It is a minority in the overall scheme of things which is how it is probably seen by car makers.

 

[GUMPY]

I can't justify the expense of running 2 cars - I tried it for 3 years and proved more expensive despite the 2nd car's running costs being a fraction of my big diesel guzzler.

Two cars, it's three here 🫣

Diesel Yeti for towing and long distance work.
RAV4 for local trips under 25 miles.
Z3 for summer sunny days.

Diesels don't like short journeys as the DPF/EGR gets filled with soot and many of our journeys are 10 miles or less, hence the need for a second car. The RAV4 is cheap apart from the road tax at £430 it's 22 years old and owes us nothing. The Z3 is fun and costs about £350 a year, it spends the winter on SORN.
I won't use the Z3 as the second car as it's been garaged for most of its life, and never gets used on wet or salty roads.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Whilst demand for petrol will drop considerably, demand for diesel will remain high due to the vast amounts used by HGVs - which will eventually be supplanted by EV HGVs but that development is decades behind cars.

Whilst that may well happen, the fact is HGV's dont tend to share refueling facilities with cars, they tend to have dedicted facilities due to the size of the vehicle. So we will see the facilties for cars shrink as EV become more main strem. Ideally if all underused filling stations were to replace fuel pumps with EV charging facilties, though that is not a straight forward process as having high voltage devices sited close to liquid fuel dispensers is not an ideal situation.

 

[Buckman]

Whilst that may well happen, the fact is HGV's dont tend to share refueling facilities with cars, they tend to have dedicted facilities due to the size of the vehicle. So we will see the facilties for cars shrink as EV become more main strem. Ideally if all underused filling stations were to replace fuel pumps with EV charging facilties, though that is not a straight forward process as having high voltage devices sited close to liquid fuel dispensers is not an ideal situation.

Maybe what Roger meant is if there are a number of HGVs recharging, the charging cables may not be able to handles the extra current and may shut down one or tow of the supply points? I am only guessing so open to learning.

 

[Dustydog]

Maybe what Roger meant is if there are a number of HGVs recharging or not , the charging cables may not be able to handles the extra current and may shut down one or tow of the supply points? I am only guessing so open to learning.

Believe it or not a diesel bus costs approx £150 k .The EV bus £400k. No data available for HGVs. Road hauliers are up against costs as it is so you have to ask who is really going to pay the bill??
It took us decades to move from steam to HST etc, 150 years. I wonder😁😁

 

[Tobes]

Believe it or not a diesel bus costs approx £150 k .The EV bus £400k. No data available for HGVs. Road hauliers are up against costs as it is so you have to ask who is really going to pay the bill??
It took us decades to move from steam to HST etc, 150 years. I wonder😁😁

The capital difference is real, but you are ignoring the operational cost saving. Over a 10 year life span, the EV bus will save its own cost in fuel savings.

At 400 miles a week, 6.1mpg and £1.3 per l of diesel a bus will use just under £200,000 of fuel in 10 years.

For 200 miles range from 450kWh, the same bus at 400 miles a week charged overnight at 0.07p per kWh will consume £6,471 of electricity fuel.

Increase that from 400 miles a week to 1000 (200 per day, the range of the bus) and your fuel saving is about £500k over 10 years, or the whole cost of the bus.

 

[Oscarmax]

At present I am more than happy with our PHEV 50 + mpg running solo even with a depleted battery, 32-36 mpg towing, the majority of time October to April we run purely in EV mode except occasionally in the depth of winter when the ICE on start up, for the rest of the time the majority of time we run in EV mode except when we are towing of the caravan.

At present the PHEV is more economical than running a EV