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LPG

T

Thecaravanboy

I note that LPG is expensive to refill a bottle £25+ but only costs around 70 p per litre to fill a car,Can anyone hopefully explain why, other than there being an extortinate mark up.The guy who i use my car to refill with was telling me about a new system where a bottle can be filled that you keep.and refill yourself.I believe it is called safefill as i have just rang him.We plan on going at least two or three times per month for weekends from now until the end of the summer.it costs £150 but half price fuel, is it worth it? Thanks in advance to any input.

Mick
 
I see that you have another post elsewhere on the forum asking about refillable lpg bottles.
Gasglow sell re fillable gas systems and bottles

http://www.motorcaravanning.co.uk/shopuk/gaslow_refillables.htm
I'm not sure how much the initial set up cost is or how often you use your caravan but I'm not sure where you get £25+ for a 'normal' lpg bottle from?
Calor gas bottles are used on a kind of hire basis and when they are returned empty they undergo meticulous safety checks which would account for some of the price differential.
My non-refillable Calor butane 7kg bottle costs £15.25 from a hardware shop close to where I live, it's recently gone up from £12 last time that I bought one. The bottle can be exchanged pretty much anywhere in the UK although caravan sites and dealers accessory shops do charge more.
Some lpg butane such as Citygas can be bought for £11 for a 7kg bottle from certain Asian shops if you know where to look, I stick to Calor because of the convenience of being able to buy a new bottle wherever I happen to be.
We use far less lpg during the warmer months because we rarely have the caravan heater on and because we go on lots of caravan rallies with no ehu (electric hook up) we use more gas than most caravanners who don't rally and who can have their fridge and water heater running off the 240v rather than lpg.
Refillable lpg bottles should only be filled to 80% capacity and concerns have been expressed about the safety of the system as a whole.
http://www.motorcaravanning.co.uk/pdf/Anyone_for_a_refill_CC_Jan09.pdf

John Wickersham is a very well respected authority on caravan maintenance and safety.
I'd try normal lpg for the first season to see how you get on because you might not be much better off but you must weigh up the pros and cons for yourself.
 
Parksy - Moderator said:
My non-refillable Calor butane 7kg bottle costs £15.25 from a hardware shop close to where I live, it's recently gone up from £12 last time that I bought one.
Click to expand...

Well you are doing very well or not tried to buy it that "recently", Calor's own price is £21.49 for a 7 kg refill. The £12 one must have been back in the last decade!
https://secure.calor.co.uk/OrderCalorCylinders/default.asp?PageType=butane
 
Caravan accessory shops also charge £21.49 which is why we try to make sure that we have enough butane to last rather than pay through the nose for it.
The £12 7kg butane was bought in October 2010, I've no idea how this hardware store manage to sell at the low price but I bought a bottle last week for £15.25.which represents a hefty price rise of £3.25 since last October.
The red Calor Gas lorry was there unloading when I bought my latest bottle so I know for a fact that it's the genuine article.
The trouble is that as caravanners we don't shop around enough, there are several Asian retailers who sell the cheaper City Gas here in the West Midlands and the initial deposit on their 7kg bottles is only £10 rather than £30+ for Calor (ours were given to us)
Similarly with Calor Gas, when we need a replacement full cylinder caravanners tend to go to the easiest, usually a caravan accessory shop.
I found out about places where the same product is cheaper when experienced rally goers told me about it and the nearest to me is a hardware store just outside Wednesbury, Asian owned again.
I wonder if the Asian businessmen realise that they are significantly less expensive than anybody else when it comes to lpg?
 
I am new to caravanning always value more experienced input.
Homebase charge £60 for a refillable bottle and £30 to refill it.If we do 2-3 weekends per month on the face of it this seems better http://www.safefill.co.uk/ because once the initial cost is met, we should save on the fuel.My car id LPG and my local supplier told me about it.I was wondering if any one else uses a similar system or their thoughts.

Mick
 
Parksy - Moderator said:
The trouble is that as caravanners we don't shop around enough,
Click to expand...

Indeed that is often true, whilst I know the price of Calor at most retailers, and our Clubs who really ought to have members interest at the fore, I like you, give them a wide berth.
For me its the local builders merchants along with the hot work roofing contractors where I get my 11 kg bottles of Flo-Gas Propane exchanged at £18. They even gave me the starter bottles.
 
Apologies for straying slightly off topic but when it comes to shopping around it's just the same when it comes to any caravan accessory.
If the word 'Caravan' is written on the box the price is almost always inflated way above what a similar item would cost in a supermarket, Wilkinsons or even pound shops.
The marketing people know that the average bloke will spend almost any amount to enhance his pride and joy caravan in some small way so even a microfibre polishing cloth is sold at a premium because it's marketed as a 'caravan polishing cloth' when the same thing can be bought at 3 for £2 elsewhere.
smiley-wink.gif
 
Parksy,

Homebase charge approx. £30 to refill their bottle and the bottle itself costs £60.it is a 10kg bottle not sure what it holds thoughThe www.safefill.co.uk bottle costs £149 and will cost around £13 to refill.Once the initial cost has been met, my thinking is it's at least half of an average refill cost and convenient enough.Also i dont like spending money and if i can save a few quid i will do.I will let you know at the weekend as i will properly check it out.
Wait until i become a proper caravanner, my questions will be endless.......

Mick
 
No problem at all with asking questions Mick, the only silly question is the one that you should have asked - but didn't
smiley-wink.gif

I can see your logic in trying to save money but I can't help wondering if your regular gas refill guy where you fill up your car can see that you're a newbie and is trying to flog you something that you might not necessarily need.
As has been discussed, Calor refills cost in the region of £22 if you pay full price but they can be bought for significantly less than that. If you don't use Calor some of the smaller outlets charge around half the full price of Calor.
Winter caravanning can use up lpg but if your caravanning is mainly on electric hook up your fridge and water heater and in most cases the heater will run off the electricity that you have already paid for in the pitch fee. The only gas that you will use is for cooking and possibly the barbecue if yours is gas.
My honest advice would be by all means check out the costs involved, how much lpg you get for your money etc but don't be suckered into buying something that you might not need because the garage attendant thinks that it's a good idea, weigh up the pros and cons and take into account what sort of touring you will be doing.
If you plan to mainly go on rallies with no ehu it could be a good investment because you would use more gas but if your plans are to use pitches in the warmer months with ehu you are paying twice because you won't use much gas and you paid for the electricity anyway.
 
I was in another local hardware store on Saturday and I saw some CityGas 11kg propane cylinders in a lock up enclosure outside so I asked the price just out of interest.
£20 deposit on the first bottle and £20 per full cylinder.
 
hi all.
If I may interject for a moment, I do understand mick's suggestion in order to save money on refills however the sums don't add up the refillable bottle and kit ( it needs a kit to be able to use the gas pump) the ones I have seen are fitted to the van so you have to take the van to the station to fill it not just the bottle so if you set up on site and the gas goes tough.
plus if it cost £150 for the bottle and to fill it cost £10 on calors top price you are saving £10 per bottle full. considering how long gas lasts ie average with normal useage 1 or 2 bottles per year it could take 7 to 15 years to just break even, even longer if you take parksy's suggestion and shop round for your gas our local garage has a gas compound and sells 3 different types of gas supply inc calor their present price for the cheapest 7kg bottle is £16.75p and £25 for a 13kg one, (the one we use) this last one has lasted 2 years because we use sites with EHU and use very little gas " only used for cooking and the first heating of the water after set up)
it would be interesting in this context to learn how much gas steve in leo uses per year considering his van is used full time.

colin
 
We use Gaslow bottles, I bought them a few years ago at a cost of £350 for the complete set up. The cheapest calor around here is about £18 for a red bottle rising to £25 if you go to the wrong place. A refill cost me about £7 now so it is a good saving.

If you are a summer caravanner it is not worth the outlay but if like us you go rallying all year it is well worth it in the long run. In our large caravan we can easily use over a bottle in a cold winter weekend with no hook up !!!
 
I actually bought one and filled it up at a local supplier last week.We had to change the regulator which was not a problem so lets see over the summer but to me its worth it for saving on hassle alone.
On a secondary point they look aesthetically pleasing to the eye.

Mick
 
For many years there has been a virtual monopoly for the supply of LPG to the caravan market, but over recent years a little more competition has crept in, but still few suppliers have the network of dealers that Calor have. I am sure that this has been to the consumers disadvantage as with virtually no compettion, refil prices are at a premium.

On the face of it, it may seem strange that bottled LPG costs so much more than LPG from a garage for cars! But to be fair there are some additional costs associated with the supply of bottled LPG. For a start the bottle is actually owned by the supply company, The owner of the bottle is obliged to maintain and periodically test it, all of which cost some money, though you also pay a significant sum to actually rent the bottle which should go a long way to cover those costs. It costs more to fill lots of small containers than large garage tanks. Even so, it is difficult to see the justification for the premium cost for bottled gas, especially as it dosent carry the road fuel duty element. which adds appox £0.4 to the cost per litre for pump LPG.

I have looked at the Safefill website, and it is impresive, and given that the bottle is designed to be filled from a garage forecourt, and at forecourt prices the system may be competivie in the long run. But short term the vaiability of the product may depend on where you live:-

According to the website map (11th May 2011) my nearest refilling point is a round trip of 18 miles compared to less than 1 mile to find my normal LPG dealer. So with the capital outlay to purchase the bottle, and the costs incured to travel to refill it, for the amount I use it could take several years to break even, and dont forget that at least every ten years the bottle will need to be retested and certified - I see no costs posted for that at the moment.

Many caravanners go abroad. You need to check the availability of refilling points on your itinerary.

When (and if) more refill sites become available the situation may change but until then I will stick with my local builders merchant bottled gas supplier.
 
joeby said:
seems like the 13 KG is the most economical , and attach it to the BBQ point , is that feasible
Click to expand...

DO NOT use an external BBQ point to connect a lpg bottle to the caravan.
This practice is not allowed by either the CC or the C&CC because it is dangerous.
The HSE have produced a pdf which explains why the connection of lpg bottles to caravan bbq points should never be contemplated by anyone Click Here & scroll down to appendix 7
 
thanks for the info Parksy , i have printed it off and placed it in my caravan info , i think all caravanners should read it
 
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