Lunar Caravans.....In Administration

[ProfJohnL]

I think you can sell with no warranty where you have made this clear as administrators of several companies have done this of late. Basically it seemed the purchaser has to specifically agree to this and be aware of the reason why. Having said that where dealers have received the caravans and have not paid for them there best bet is to send them back unless the administrator agrees to a warranty.
There is nothing in the Lunar one to say that it is anything other than Lunar's responsibility so chasing another firm looks doubtful there.

Yes a caravan can be sold with no manufacturers warranty, if as you say it is made clear and is part of the sellers description, the question is if anyone would want to buy a caravan without the manufacturers warranty? There should be a significant price reduction to cover the loss of the amenity. None of this will reduce the seller's liability under the CRA.

There are many if's and bu'ts about the future of the marque, and at this stage there is no guarantee (excuse the pun) that any new owner of the Lunar name would also have to honor existing manufacturers warranty liabilities. That would be part of any negotiations between the administrators and any potential buyer.

 

[Icaru5]

I think you can sell with no warranty where you have made this clear as administrators of several companies have done this of late. Basically it seemed the purchaser has to specifically agree to this and be aware of the reason why. Having said that where dealers have received the caravans and have not paid for them there best bet is to send them back unless the administrator agrees to a warranty.
There is nothing in the Lunar one to say that it is anything other than Lunar's responsibility so chasing another firm looks doubtful there.

Yes a caravan can be sold with no manufacturers warranty, if as you say it is made clear and is part of the sellers description, the question is if anyone would want to buy a caravan without the manufacturers warranty? There should be a significant price reduction to cover the loss of the amenity. None of this will reduce the seller's liability under the CRA.

There are many if's and bu'ts about the future of the marque, and at this stage there is no guarantee (excuse the pun) that any new owner of the Lunar name would also have to honor existing manufacturers warranty liabilities. That would be part of any negotiations between the administrators and any potential buyer.

That really is a grey area Prof, and it depends on what the potential buyer is actually buying. A cursory glance into the business of “Lunar Caravans” reveals two companies ... Lunar Holdings Limited and Lunar Caravans Limited.

Now, if the potential buyer in question was to buy whichever of those two companies are responsible for honouring the warranty of Lunar caravans, then it’s very clear, and non-negotiable. The buyer would be absolutely responsible for honouring the existing manufacturers warranty. However, if the administrators chose to sell only the name “Lunar Caravans”, and that name is then subsequently registered with companies house under a different company number, or even used as a “Trading as” pseudonym, then there would be no liability whatsoever on the new owner of the name.

Hope that helps ...

Ic.

 

[Dustydog]

Good stuff , thanks all. My local dealer has this week reduced all new Lunar prices by £3k. Not enough to entice me. However depending what finally happens with Lunar Insuspect the prices may have to drop further

 

[Raywood]

If there is a sale of the company then the warranty would still be enforceable, but I think any buyer would go for the name and assets which would mean no warranty liability and any warranty claim would be against the administrator for a share of any value in the company. As I understand it he has kept the permanent employees on which would suggest some sort of sale is possible.
I do wonder though who would be interested as Hymer have bought Eldiss recently, which leaves only Trigano as an obvious buyer that I can think of.

 

[Dustydog]

If there is a sale of the company then the warranty would still be enforceable, but I think any buyer would go for the name and assets which would mean no warranty liability and any warranty claim would be against the administrator for a share of any value in the company. As I understand it he has kept the permanent employees on which would suggest some sort of sale is possible.
I do wonder though who would be interested as Hymer have bought Eldiss recently, which leaves only Trigano as an obvious buyer that I can think of.

I guess it is possible Swift may have a look. They have acquired a number of brands over the years, Bessacar, Sterling, ABI, etc. Not sure who owns the assets of Lunar, but their buildings and equipment may have an interest to someone.

 

[ProfJohnL]

There is over supply in the UK caravan market. That means with Lunar ceased building, their share of the market will help the remaining producers, so no rescue for Lunar production is a strong possibility.

 

[CustardAvenger]

It seems that Lunar are not present or have been removed from the 2019 NEC Motorhome and Caravan show. The floor plan, updated 19 July does not feature them. https://mcshow.co.uk/plan-your-visit/floor-plan/

I happen to have a copy of the 2017 floor plan; Lunar's stand by the entrances to Halls 17 &18 has been split in two and will be occupied by Raymond James Caravans and Robinson's Caravans.

 

[Buckman]

IMHO a manufacturer's warranty is basically a worthless piece of paper as it does not over ride your rights under CRA 2015. A manufacturer's warranty is in addition to your consumer rights. Therefore if you buy a new or second hand Lunar caravan you are still covered by CRA 2015 however after 6 months you would need to prove the issue existed at time of supply. Most damp issues probably could be proved to have existed at time of purchase.

 

[oldagetraveller1]

I'm fascinated by the fact that the preponderance of postings seem to relate to warranty claims or the fear of such claims. It's as if everyone buying a Lunar expects to make a warranty claim . I know that there is a widespread dissatisfaction with UK built vans but is it really that bad?
Are there any Lunar owners out there who have had a trouble free experience?
I'm interested because I have been thinking of changing my old but 100% trouble free Swift for something newer, but have been put off by the constant stories of horrific problems across all UK makes.
Perhaps I need to look at the German makes??

 

[otherclive]

IMHO a manufacturer's warranty is basically a worthless piece of paper as it does not over ride your rights under CRA 2015. A manufacturer's warranty is in addition to your consumer rights. Therefore if you buy a new or second hand Lunar caravan you are still covered by CRA 2015 however after 6 months you would need to prove the issue existed at time of supply. Most damp issues probably could be proved to have existed at time of purchase.

How would I prove that the cracked front and rear panels on my new Bailey were present at the time of purchase? Similarly how would I do that in year 5 of my present van? How do you prove damp is there at time of purchase other than by arranging an independent damp check. Then you’d probably drop the purchase wouldn’t you ? Whilst I wouldn’t disagree with the strict accuracy of your statement buyers shouldn’t underestimate the potential benefits of having a manufacturers warranty. My present van came with the remaining period of its Swift warranty intact. It also had a 12 month insurance backed comprehensive warranty. But reading the small print of the insurance warranty it covered damp but not failure/ faults in plastic body components. So one shouldn’t underestimate the benefits of a makers warranty which can be far easier to pursue than the CRA 2015.

 

[Raywood]

IMHO a manufacturer's warranty is basically a worthless piece of paper as it does not over ride your rights under CRA 2015. A manufacturer's warranty is in addition to your consumer rights. Therefore if you buy a new or second hand Lunar caravan you are still covered by CRA 2015 however after 6 months you would need to prove the issue existed at time of supply. Most damp issues probably could be proved to have existed at time of purchase.

The warranty is not worthless. It protects you if the dealer goes out of business, which some do, and after six months makes claiming for problems far more straightforward in most cases.

 

[woodsieboy]

Advice Please Update

We contacted dealer and requested repair under Consumer Rights Act 2015, asking for collection, repair and return or for dealer to pay for repair local to us, they replied,'' In light of Lunars difficulties we have had our obligations under consumer law clarified by our solicitor and have adopted a more generous policy towards Lunar repairs than is required of us.As a matter of goodwill we would be pleased to repair the crack to your caravan and to organise a one night stay at ----------------- our local caravan park free of charge. Unfortunately we are not able to pick up and return your caravan''

Suggestions please as to next step, inclined to reply quoting the 2015 Act that we should not suffer inconvenience or cost for the repair to be carried out.

 

[otherclive]

Advice Please Update

We contacted dealer and requested repair under Consumer Rights Act 2015, asking for collection, repair and return or for dealer to pay for repair local to us, they replied,'' In light of Lunars difficulties we have had our obligations under consumer law clarified by our solicitor and have adopted a more generous policy towards Lunar repairs than is required of us.As a matter of goodwill we would be pleased to repair the crack to your caravan and to organise a one night stay at ----------------- our local caravan park free of charge. Unfortunately we are not able to pick up and return your caravan''

Suggestions please as to next step, inclined to reply quoting the 2015 Act that we should not suffer inconvenience or cost for the repair to be carried out.

What type of crack is it. I’ve had two vans with ABS panels and the normal makers approach is to replace the panel as repairs don’t work too well given the flexible nature of the panel and the flexing of the van. Are they offering a warranty on the repair?

 

[woodsieboy]

Hi Clive
It is a hairline crack on the radius of the awning rail offside rear,approx 1 cm long at the moment, Lunar authorised repairer put in for new panel, Lunar rejected the claim and authorised repair involving removing awning rail and repairing both inside and outside of panel, then when Lunar went in to administration repairer said wouldn't do the repair as owed money from Lunar and not sure could get new awning rail, so we went back to supplying deal under CRA and I have posted the reply today, looks like the dealer thinks they will be doing me a favour with the gesture of goodwill.

 

[otherclive]

Plastic repairs can be very successful using specialist techniques and welding/staples etc. But most makers do seem to prefer to replace the caravan end panels. But you are in a difficult position and without knowing the structural area and the success or otherwise of such repairs it’s very difficult to be categorical. DoLunar Owners Club have any experience of the success of such repairs?

The repairs can be invisible to the naked eye but it’s the longevity that would concern me.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Advice Please Update

We contacted dealer and requested repair under Consumer Rights Act 2015, asking for collection, repair and return or for dealer to pay for repair local to us, they replied,'' In light of Lunars difficulties we have had our obligations under consumer law clarified by our solicitor and have adopted a more generous policy towards Lunar repairs than is required of us.As a matter of goodwill we would be pleased to repair the crack to your caravan and to organise a one night stay at ----------------- our local caravan park free of charge. Unfortunately we are not able to pick up and return your caravan''

Suggestions please as to next step, inclined to reply quoting the 2015 Act that we should not suffer inconvenience or cost for the repair to be carried out.

If the seller has accepted that that fault exists that they are liable for under the CRA, then all you should need to do is to remind them, that the matter is between you and them, and the status or opinion of the manufacturer is irrelevant to the works in question.

I advise you to look up the help pages on the consumer associations web pages or take out a subscription and take advantage of their help in formulating a specific letter and plan of action. It may require staring procedures in the small claims courts.

 

[Buckman]

Advice Please Update

We contacted dealer and requested repair under Consumer Rights Act 2015, asking for collection, repair and return or for dealer to pay for repair local to us, they replied,'' In light of Lunars difficulties we have had our obligations under consumer law clarified by our solicitor and have adopted a more generous policy towards Lunar repairs than is required of us.As a matter of goodwill we would be pleased to repair the crack to your caravan and to organise a one night stay at ----------------- our local caravan park free of charge. Unfortunately we are not able to pick up and return your caravan''

Suggestions please as to next step, inclined to reply quoting the 2015 Act that we should not suffer inconvenience or cost for the repair to be carried out.

The dealer is not obliged under CRA 2015 to collect and return the caravan as it was sold on a "back to base" clause. You could try claiming compensation for inconvenience but doubt very much if you will win anything.

 

[Raywood]

At least the dealer made an offer. Not sure if the repair is a long term solution, but it may be difficult to get a new panel and awning rail. If that is the case then the repair and quick sale might be the best bet, but you may need to wait and see what the situation with Lunar parts is.
Having said that when our Avondale needed the rear panel replacing after damage and one awning rail was not available, the repairer did clean the old one and reused it. I think a new rail is cheaper but cleaning the old one should be possible.
You can claim the cost of delivery and return after the repair but the sums involved are often not enough to take action on. For the dealer it would mean sending out a vehicle and employee to collect and return it so even if they accept you are entitled to the cost of the transport it would be cheaper for them to let you do it and pay your costs in most cases.

 

[ProfJohnL]

.....The dealer is not obliged under CRA 2015 to collect and return the caravan as it was sold on a "back to base" clause. You could try claiming compensation for inconvenience but doubt very much if you will win anything.

Manufactures warranty usually do include a a clause that makes the owner responsible for transportation costs, But that is the manufacturers warranty and has nothing to do with the CRA.

 

[Buckman]

.....The dealer is not obliged under CRA 2015 to collect and return the caravan as it was sold on a "back to base" clause. You could try claiming compensation for inconvenience but doubt very much if you will win anything.

Manufactures warranty usually do include a a clause that makes the owner responsible for transportation costs, But that is the manufacturers warranty and has nothing to do with the CRA.

Not sure why you are repeating what I already posted?

 

[Parksy]

Not sure why you are repeating what I already posted?

Please don't worry, we've got plenty of computer monitor screen ink to spare

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Buckman,

I haven't repeated what you have written, Your comment says the dealer does not have to collect faulty goods under the CRA. That is incorrect, as the seller is responsible for the recovery of faulty goods with the minimum of inconvenience to the customer.

It is only the manufacturer's warranty that usually requires the owner to cover costs.

 

[Dustydog]

Hello Buckman,

I haven't repeated what you have written, Your comment says the dealer does not have to collect faulty goods under the CRA. That is incorrect, as the seller is responsible for the recovery of faulty goods with the minimum of inconvenience to the customer.

It is only the manufacturer's warranty that usually requires the owner to cover costs.

This may help. Maybe no one has got it correct?
Recovery of a vehicle under the Consumer Rights Act 2015

The Consumer Rights Act 2015 states “the trader must bear any reasonable costs of returning them, other than any costs incurred by the consumer in returning the goods in person to the place where the consumer took physical possession of them” therefore, if the vehicle is driveable then you can request that the consumer brings the vehicle back to your premises.

But, if the vehicle cannot be driven then “reasonable costs” of recovering the vehicle should be incurred by yourself. This obviously can be costly.

If you do not have repair facilities then it may be easier for both parties to have the vehicle diagnosed/repaired at a local VAT registered independent garage near them.

However, If your sales invoice states it is the consumers responsibility to return the vehicle to the trader in the event they wish to exercise their statutory rights, this becomes an express clause of the agreement.

Lawgistics Members can get advice on all consumer related issues from the legal team, we also sell a full range of stationery to help your business be legally compliant.

 

[woodsieboy]

Update

Dealer has today repeated in writing that they will only repair our caravan as gesture of goodwill, they do not seem to think the CRA counts for anything, as a result we have decided to part ex the Lunar and cut our losses,and let someone else be responsible for the repair,mainly due to fear of future problems with repairs,and the value has dropped like a stone, as dealers are offering new Lunars at less than 2018 prices with a knock on to used prices, needless to say we are not using the dealer in question, mind you if any body likes a gamble there are great prices to be had on new Lunars.

 

[Dustydog]

Update

Dealer has today repeated in writing that they will only repair our caravan as gesture of goodwill, they do not seem to think the CRA counts for anything, as a result we have decided to part ex the Lunar and cut our losses,and let someone else be responsible for the repair,mainly due to fear of future problems with repairs,and the value has dropped like a stone, as dealers are offering new Lunars at less than 2018 prices with a knock on to used prices, needless to say we are not using the dealer in question, mind you if any body likes a gamble there are great prices to be had on new Lunars.

I think you are right. The long term water ingress Guarantee worried me. Even at discounted prices probably not worth a punt. Good luck with your new purchase.