Measuring caravan Electricity consumption. MeterMaid 16A. Caravan electricity costs.

[otherclive]

I understand the logic of the ventilation system, but houses are not ventilated any where near the same degree as caravans. I have often thought (but might be wrong) that there is such extreme ventilation to help a flow of air and keep damp away when the van is left unused over long periods of time during the winter.

Acrilic is a far better insulator than glass. Most of the benefit of double glazing is down to the air gap between panes, this prevents direct heat conduction. An acrylic/air gap/acrylic window should be a better insulator than a glass/air gap/glass. Assuming the air gap is the same. The optimum air gap for double glazing is 12mm. I suspect the gap is bigger in caravan glazing. I had to have a front caravan window replaced because the outer pane had been deflected inwards and the panes repeatedly touching caused the plastic to have internal markings. Done under guarantee.

Domestic double glazing is filled with a noble gas not air. It is denser than air and the rate of heat loss is reduced compared to if air was used.

 

[Darren.H]

I used to have an OWL monitor on the caravan but can't remember our usage it would have been quite high in winter as everything now is electric, even one of the hobs on the cooker is, plus we also have a stand alone induction hob and electric kettle.
If you have ALDE that is in my thinking the cheapest way to achieve heat and hot water via electric as the elements do both at the same time.
The downside of Alde is the noise from the pump on some including our caravan, as at night time the heat loss can easily be converted into time with the pump coming on, about 7 times an hour!
The solution is we have a thermostatic fan heater which we use at night and turn the Alde heating right down, its the only way I can get a nights sleep.

 

[ProfJohnL]

...
If you have ALDE that is in my thinking the cheapest way to achieve heat and hot water via electric as the elements do both at the same time....

That is not logically true.

Bear in mind that ALL electrical heating appliances are 100% efficient, meaning if they consume 1kWh of energy they give out 1kWh of energy. Its one of teh beauties of electrical heating.

Assuming you are only referring to the cost of electrical power used, then if your Alde heater used 8kWh of energy to heat both the caravan and the hot water, if you used separate appliances to achieve the same result you would still only use a total of 8kWh of energy, but it would be shared between the heating appliances. So there would be no cost or efficiency difference.

 

[Hutch]

Our Truma Combi heating, is lovely and quiet, Except when being set at 10c over night, (silent) then at the programed time, comes upto say 15c it sounds like a London tube train coming into a station for about 3 minutes.
Had to replace both Elements after 6 years hard usage, Love it though.

 

[Malx]

I used to have an OWL monitor on the caravan but can't remember our usage it would have been quite high in winter as everything now is electric, even one of the hobs on the cooker is, plus we also have a stand alone induction hob and electric kettle.
If you have ALDE that is in my thinking the cheapest way to achieve heat and hot water via electric as the elements do both at the same time.
The downside of Alde is the noise from the pump on some including our caravan, as at night time the heat loss can easily be converted into time with the pump coming on, about 7 times an hour!
The solution is we have a thermostatic fan heater which we use at night and turn the Alde heating right down, its the only way I can get a nights sleep.

We have An Alde system in our current challenger se. This is being changed for another van, also with Alde heating. Would never go back to the blown air systems we had in earlier vans. Surprised by your issue with the pump noise. We have one, but in a wardrobe, muffled by clothes, and a door. I hear it in the night but it’s not intrusive (but then I have my hearing aids out at night).. in the next van I am wondering where the pump is. Hope it’s not as noisy as you suggest.

I was investigating a battery drain on my van, clearly indicated by the Phantom tracker. I had to keep phoning the dealer asking for the van to be plugged in. When I walked into the van I immediately heard the Alde pump. I assumee the dealer had tested the heating, (prior to a P/X)left the alde system turned on. when disconnected from the mains, The pump works, all the time, powered by the battery for a few days till it goes flat.

 

[Malx]

Our Truma Combi heating, is lovely and quiet, Except when being set at 10c over night, (silent) then at the programed time, comes upto say 15c it sounds like a London tube train coming into a station for about 3 minutes.
Had to replace both Elements after 6 years hard usage, Love it though.

I have found the Alde heating pump sounds noisier if the fluid level gets low. Perhaps air in the system. Can’t understand why noisy for 3 mins then gets quiet?

 

[Malx]

Domestic double glazing is filled with a noble gas not air. It is denser than air and the rate of heat loss is reduced compared to if air was used.

Not all double glazing comes argon filled as standard.

 

[Malx]

Caravans have fixed ventilation intended to change the air and dispose of excess humidity. Rising heat is expelled through fixed roof vents. Clean cold air is pulled in through the fixed floor vents, mixing with circulating air.
The photo shows only that the hottest parts of the side are hotter than the coldest. It is clear that the windows are losing heat, but that is quite likely considering what they are made from. Compare the weight of your home's double glazing with the Challenger's lightweight acrylic.
It is unlikely that a caravan with 16A hook up would consume £8 worth of electricity daily (about 45kWh) unless the door and windows were open and the heating was on full wack. About half of that in cold weather would be more likely.

Yes 45 kWh in a day is using about 2 an hour, every hour. Perhaps the people concerned were heating the awning as well!

 

[Malx]

The primary reason for the fixed ventilation in caravans is to ensure there is sufficient breathable air inside for the occupants and enough air for the cooker hob and oven to operate safely.

Bear in mind that the volume of a caravan is considerably smaller than a house or even many rooms in homes, and it often has to accommodate a greater number of people and oxygen consuming appliances per cubic meter so it needs what might seem a disproportionate amount of fixed ventilation to cater for the higher population density of a house.

The normalisation of moisture content in the fabric and atmosphere of the caravans is an important but only secondary function for the fixed ventilation.

I never thought about combustion of gas! The design of a caravan has to be a compromise. I wonder if An all electric van outdoor reduce draughty van design and reduce heating costs. In the past gas was the only source of heat and light in a caravan. Traditions take a long time to change, I wonder if the need for gas could be removed from a caravan design. You couldn’t go “off grid”. I wonder what proportion of caravaners never stray from the electric bollard. (And never use the gas oven?)

 

[JTQ]

Can’t understand why noisy for 3 mins then gets quiet?

IMO because initially, when the space thermostat switches in to run the fluid is static and the pump cavitates somewhat?
Spinning in its own fluid, until progressively it gets the fluid up to a steady state flow speed better matched to the pumps design and setting? Along with this the fluid sheds some of its dissolved air as it heats up, so a system not run for a long while I would expect to be that bit noisier than one in use. Air tending to "seed" one form of cavitation.

A positive feature with the move to the boiler mounted pump was this then runs at, at least a metre fluid head of static pressure, rather than the inch the header mounted circulator did, thus suppressing to an extent cavitation. Along with this the boiler mounted pump has settings for speed control so flow rate related noises can be minimised. It also avoids lousy van designs where the header pump could effectively be mounted on a "sounding board" panel.

 

[Gafferbill]

Assuming you are only referring to the cost of electrical power used, then if your Alde heater used 8kWh of energy to heat both the caravan and the hot water......

............I've never been on a site that supplies 8 kW to a caravan via an EHU or is that total energy consumption?

 

[Buckman]

............I've never been on a site that supplies 8 kW to a caravan via an EHU or is that total energy consumption?

Maximum electric power for ALDE is 3kw however we find 2kw more than ample. We can even use the toaster when it is on 2kw.

 

[JTQ]

............I've never been on a site that supplies 8 kW to a caravan via an EHU or is that total energy consumption?

The electrical heating elements 3.15 kW, plus the propane burner on max 5.5 kW = 8.65 kW, and almost another kW if fueled with butane. Values for our 3010.

In my experience and observations, in real life the convectors are way too underspecified to dissipate anything like the Alde boiler's maximum steady state output.

 

[ProfJohnL]

No I'm not mistaken. I deliberately used the kWh's unit which is a quantity of energy used not the rate of using power which is just kW's.

To explain this, consider:-

Energy used (kWh) = the rate (kW) x by the period of use in hours.

If a 3kW kettle, boils a quantity of water in about 3 minuets, The kettle is using 3kW but only for 3min which is 5% of an hour so it only uses 0.15kWh of energy.

The same quantity of water was boiled in a 1.5kW rated kettle, The kettle is only half the power of the first kettle, It will take twice as long to boil the water so that's 6 minuets or just 10% of an hour

1.5kW x 0.1h = 0.15kWh just the same amount of energy.

I estimated the the total heating need for both water and space heating for a two berth caravan to be based on a heating system which is cycling on a thermostat and hot water that is only needed for a short while . The total quantity of power used in a day would be about 8kWh.

 

[RogerL]

The electrical heating elements 3.15 kW, plus the propane burner on max 5.5 kW = 8.65 kW, and almost another kW if fueled with butane. Values for our 3010.

In my experience and observations, in real life the convectors are way too underspecified to dissipate anything like the Alde boiler's maximum steady state output.

As part of my initial investigation on our Lunar because of poor Alde performance, I determined that the standard convectors/radiator could only dissipate 1.6 kw - at that rate the return flow was running at 82 degrees C and subject to cutting out by the overheat thermostat to prevent boiling - the convector airflow was then modified at Lunar's expense based on suggestions from me and an Alde engineer but hasn't been retested in the same way..

Full electric power and gas assistance will heat up the coolant quicker but once that's up to temperature I doubt that any caravans can dissipate more than about 2.5 kw of heat.

 

[otherclive]

Not all double glazing comes argon filled as standard.

We’ve just had 12 windows replaced last month and none of the three companies that quoted offered air filled units, unless for a specific purpose such as a conservation task. But those units would be only C rated. Before we ordered I spent time looking at the various BS EN 1279 and the Building Regulations 2010 ( updated July 2021) and air filled were unlikely to meet the U requirement or WER even if they could be supplied. So whilst it is true that air filled can be purchased in reality for most purposes the sealed units will be filled with either argon, xenon or krypton.

 

[Malx]

IMO because initially, when the space thermostat switches in to run the fluid is static and the pump cavitates somewhat?
Spinning in its own fluid, until progressively it gets the fluid up to a steady state flow speed better matched to the pumps design and setting? Along with this the fluid sheds some of its dissolved air as it heats up, so a system not run for a long while I would expect to be that bit noisier than one in use. Air tending to "seed" one form of cavitation.

A positive feature with the move to the boiler mounted pump was this then runs at, at least a metre fluid head of static pressure, rather than the inch the header mounted circulator did, thus suppressing to an extent cavitation. Along with this the boiler mounted pump has settings for speed control so flow rate related noises can be minimised. It also avoids lousy van designs where the header pump could effectively be mounted on a "sounding board" panel.

It’s so good to learn things! So the design of the alde system in my new van will be different from the old By the sound of it. Does the new system have a header tank as such? Or is it pressurised ? and does this pose practical problems? Such as … on the first night out with my new Alde heating system, 9 Yeats ago, it wouldn’t work! Figured it out eventually … the dealer had not bled any from the system when c omissioned. Eventually found all bleed valves and it was ok.

 

[Malx]

We’ve just had 12 windows replaced last month and none of the three companies that quoted offered air filled units, unless for a specific purpose such as a conservation task. But those units would be only C rated. Before we ordered I spent time looking at the various BS EN 1279 and the Building Regulations 2010 ( updated July 2021) and air filled were unlikely to meet the U requirement or WER even if they could be supplied. So whilst it is true that air filled can be purchased in reality for most purposes the sealed units will be filled with either argon, xenon or krypton.

Thanks for explaining. I did pay for argon in conservatory glazing, 14 years ago, thinking we might use it heated in winter.. didnt much. So that was £200 I needn’t have spent!

did you look at pros and cons of triple glazing?

 

[JTQ]

Does the new system have a header tank as such? Or is it pressurised ? and does this pose practical problems?

Thankfully still a header; pressurised would poses real problems, caravan builders and workshops are involved! Way better base things on gravity being consistently on the ball than this industry.

on the first night out with my new Alde heating system, 9 Yeats ago, it wouldn’t work!

Initial and into very early life running with fresh fluid can break the fluid circuit with "air" locks needing bleeding.
Sloppy setting to work PDIs make this a real world issue; ensure on acceptance the Alde has been running an hour or so, ideally at max pump speed, beforehand getting the fluid and space way hotter than bearable, witness them resetting the pump. This will sort out any air removal and flag up any "air" locks. Some dealers don't, and even some don't then reset the pump to its low in use setting.

You with your earlier van were probably the first ever to run it nice and hot, its then released air, with low pump flow rate, locked it up for you.

 

[otherclive]

Thanks for explaining. I did pay for argon in conservatory glazing, 14 years ago, thinking we might use it heated in winter.. didnt much. So that was £200 I needn’t have spent!

did you look at pros and cons of triple glazing?

Yes but the additional insulation benefits did not merit the extra costs. Although about 5 years ago we fitted triple glazing to our daughters house. She lives on a busier road whereas we live in a close, so noise was a consideration in her case. Then we got a good deal from the installation company and also a government grant too.

 

[RogerL]

It’s so good to learn things! So the design of the alde system in my new van will be different from the old By the sound of it. Does the new system have a header tank as such? Or is it pressurised ? and does this pose practical problems? Such as … on the first night out with my new Alde heating system, 9 Yeats ago, it wouldn’t work! Figured it out eventually … the dealer had not bled any from the system when c omissioned. Eventually found all bleed valves and it was ok.

The "problem" with the pump in the header tank depends on which wall it's mounted - ours is on the outside wall of the wardrobe and only audible outside the caravan - if it's on an inside wall of a flimsy cabinet near the bed it can be very intrusive.

 

[Jcloughie]

I used to have an OWL monitor on the caravan but can't remember our usage it would have been quite high in winter as everything now is electric, even one of the hobs on the cooker is, plus we also have a stand alone induction hob and electric kettle.
If you have ALDE that is in my thinking the cheapest way to achieve heat and hot water via electric as the elements do both at the same time.
The downside of Alde is the noise from the pump on some including our caravan, as at night time the heat loss can easily be converted into time with the pump coming on, about 7 times an hour!
The solution is we have a thermostatic fan heater which we use at night and turn the Alde heating right down, its the only way I can get a nights sleep.

Caravan manufacturers have not fitted the header tank pump for about 5 years now. It was only ever done to save a comparatively small amount of money. I managed to fit a DC speed controller in circuit which really helped.



I have now put the inline pump on which I would recommend to anyone keeping their van.

John

 

[Jcloughie]

Back to the expencive meter maid.

I would think so think like this.


Would be more versatile and a lot cheaper.

geo Minim Energy Monitor - Self-Installed - CT Clip Sensor for Single Phase Electricity Meters : Amazon.co.uk

geo Minim Energy Monitor - Self-Installed - CT Clip Sensor for Single Phase Electricity Meters : Amazon.co.uk

www.amazon.co.uk

(Apologies for the long URL. But hyperlinks have stopped working on my iPad for some strange reason).


John

 

[xtrailman]

Domestic double glazing is filled with a noble gas not air. It is denser than air and the rate of heat loss is reduced compared to if air was used.

I've had double glazing in three different House's not one was filled with noble gas.

 

[Jcloughie]

I've had double glazing in three different House's not one was filled with noble gas.

It used to be optional. But perhaps it’s standard now With ever raising insulation requirements.

John