motorway blowouts and flats

[Lonesome-Whizkid]

Ok, I'm going to quote another passage from the book I'm reading. And it's a book I thoroughly recommend to any newbie to the world of caravanning, it's called teach yourself caravanning in association with the caravan club by Rob McCabe. I got mine on e bay, used book for £2.99 so its fairly cheap. Anyway here's what I would like feedback on.

Many caravanners enjoy the peace of mind afforded by steel safety bands that, when fitted to the wheel, will prevent a blown-out tyre from dropping into the rim - which may result in dramatic instability. It also offers a brief 'run-flat' capability, allowing the stricken outfit to be driven to a safe location to effect a wheel change. Speak to your caravan dealer for more information.

So, does anyone have them fitted or heard of a catastrophic accident because they were not fitted and does anyone know how there fitted?

And is it less likely to happen with a twin axle caravan? With the aid of one more wheel not punctured or blown-out to take the strain.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi, they are called Tyron bands http://www.tyron.co.uk/ some love them others like myself are not so sure,
in theory they are a good idea but providing the tyres are in good condition, in date, (5years) inflated correctly,and regulary checked, who knows ??

 

[Sproket]

They are called tyron bands that are fitted into the wheel well I have them fitted to my van, they were already fitted when I had the tyres changed, so when the new tyres were put on the tyron bands were re fitted & the wheels were then balanced...

Why not watch some of the various videos about how they work

 

[Lonesome-Whizkid]

Yeah thanks for that link, just watched the video on youtube, handy to know, must be a concern on most regular caravanners minds, especially getting a flat on the off-side, trying to change your tyre right beside flying cars and trucks inches away from you. But like you say Colin, could be avoided if you have good tyres, but also, all it takes is a sharp piece of glass or metal and if it's gonna go down its gonna go down. I guess being a safe and road responsible driver is going to help matters and reduce the chance of you losing control of your outfit. And also using A and B roads and taking a more scenic route to your destination of choice would also be good too?

 

[Lonesome-Whizkid]

Would a set of these Tyron's allow you to reach a service station for your tyre change? its 21 miles distance from service station to the next isn't it?

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Whiz,

Many caravanners enjoy the peace of mind afforded by steel safety bands that, when fitted to the wheel, will prevent a blown-out tyre from dropping into the rim - which may result in dramatic instability. It also offers a brief 'run-flat' capability, allowing the stricken outfit to be driven to a safe location to effect a wheel change. Speak to your caravan dealer for more information.....

The majority of caravanners do not have steel bands, So why not if there so effective? The reason is that they are not as effective as they are made out to be, infact in some key respects that are ineffective'

There have been several long forum debates about steel bands for wheels, of which Tyron is one example. Unfortunately the forum search tab does not seem to find the threads so I can't point you to them.

There are two camps on the subject, I firmly sit in the one that cannot find any conclusive evidence that fitting bands has any real advantage for caravanners.

The job the bands are claimed to do which is to prevent the bead of the deflated tyre from slipping into the throat of the rim. All modern wheel rims include a ridge which does exactly the same job, which renders the bands unnecessary.

They don't prevent, blowouts, and they don't prevent flattened tyres from disintegrating. they don't replace proper tyre inspections and maintenance.

They don't seem to do very much, but cost money to buy and fit, and can cause some fitter's difficulties when changing tyres.

I have seen no evidence to support them but they might flatten your wallet.

The other camp thinks there wonderful, and get a warm glowing feeling misguidedly thinking your tyre are safer..

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi,
to put things in perspective you must understand the universal translation of Sod's law, that is anything that can go wrong will go wrong sometime to somebody, that does not mean it will though, neither does it mean that all the precausions in the world will stop something going wrong, you just hope it will somebody else.

you can of course minimise the risk of something going wrong, because like any god, Sod will pick on the weakest link.
the one that did not do the maintanance or check everything before setting off. if you are going to get a puncture you will get one no matter what you do, punctures are rare blowouts even rarer if you think tyre bands are worth it fine, however they will not stop a puncture or blowout they will not allow you to carry on for miles with a flat tyre all they will do is possibly stop the tyre coming off the rim and damaging the van's wheel arch or body work, although as John said it should not happen with modern rims and tyres

you cannot defeat Sod however you can lessen the risk somewhat by being careful, observant, and diligent, having good insurance and breakdown cover also helps. then perhaps it will pick on someone else and leave you alone, it is the best one can hope for.

 

[Lonesome-Whizkid]

Ok, it's good to know your opinions and knowledge, it is highly valued.

 

[FrintonMike]

About 5years ago we had a tyre blow on the A14 in Cambridge and went off the side of the dual carriageway. I was slowing to go into the Cambridge services and doing about 40mph when I went over something in the road which shredded the tyre
when we purchased a replacement caravan we had the bands fitted, more for my wife's peace of mind , rather than do they work ?
We now have a twin axel and do not have the bands fitted as if a tyre blows we still have three wheels to help us stop. I hope I am right about this

 

[ProfJohnL]

..................
We now have a twin axel and do not have the bands fitted as if a tyre blows we still have three wheels to help us stop. I hope I am right about this

If one tyre blows on a TA it means the remaining tyre on that side now has roughly twice its expected load. With some caravans that might exceed the tyres rating.

Bearing in mind that if a tyre does blow on a TA,the re a fair chance the driver may bot notice it, because of the second tyre , so if you don't notice the failure, you're more likely to run on and expose the second tyre to excess load rendering it more likely to fail just further down the road.

I'm in no way suggesting TA's are bad, they're a great option, but they can mask issues that a SA caravanner will pick up more quickly.

 

[JTQ]

Hello Whiz,

The job the bands are claimed to do which is to prevent the bead of the deflated tyre from slipping into the throat of the rim. All modern wheel rims include a ridge which does exactly the same job, which renders the bands unnecessary.

The other camp thinks there wonderful, and get a warm glowing feeling misguidedly thinking your tyre are safer..

But of course this statement also exhibits quite misguided thinking!

There is no argument about modern rims, in fact far from modern rims, featuring bead safety channels.
However, as anyone who has fitted or removed a trye from these rims knows they don't prevent the bead slipping into the "well". They help but they don't stop it.
Whereas with bands the beads simply can't drop into the well, it is filled.
The important ramification of not being able to slip into the well, is that whilst the tyre bead remains in tact the tyre can't leave the rim.

 

[xtrailman]

I've never had bands fitted, nor do I intend to.

I've also only ever had one flat tyre on a caravan, and I've been towing since the Cavalier was launched.

The tyre was on a brand new caravan on its first tour. I change my caravan every 7 years normally, so never change the tyres.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hi JTQ,
The band manufacturers make a big thing of the safety benefits of fitting bands. One of the issues of using the safety card, is that it plays on the publics desire to have safe products and experiences. Unfortunately none of the manufacturers published materials could be corroborated, and the demonstrations were not scientifically sound. They were designed to give the impression the bands were making the difference when the perceived effects could be down to many other causes or reasons.

Several of us here, and elsewhere put some quite specific open questions to the manufacture about the validity of the demonstrations they published, which is a legitimate position to take when safety is being sold.
We never received a reply.

Since then, the products have continued to be sold in smallish numbers, yet if the product did have the type of benefits they claimed, there would have been a much greater uptake of the product, and new manufacturers would have entered the market. Their absence tells a story, and its not just down to any patents the originators may have had to protect their product or markets, ingenuity would have found ways round any patent protection if there was a genuine market potential.

If beads falling into rim wells was occurring on the frequency or with the dire consequences the manufacture would like us to think, there would have been major damages claims being made against both tyre and wheel manufacturers. They would have responded by either redesign the the bead technology to prevent it dropping into the well or fitting bands, or eliminating the well by other means. It simply isn't happening, so the problem probably doesn't really exist in the real world.

Clearly the wider market does not feel the product provides irrefutable benefits, because there s no concerted effort by any organisation (Other than the manufacturer) to encourage people to fit the bands.

There is really no clear evidence they actually provide any tangible benefit to the user. I have a very strong suspicion its one of those products that is a solution looking for a problem that doesn't exist.

It is of course a matter for personal choice whether to fit bands or not, They don't do any harm, so there's nothing lost except pounds from your wallet, and the difficulty some tyre fitters have with the bands and of course the weight of the bands diminishes you payload.

I will happily reconsider my view of this type of product if the manufacturers publishes verifiable scientific data that conclusively demonstrates there is a real world problem with tyre beads falling into wells, and that the fitting of the bands makes a significant difference to the safety of the those who would use them.

 

[JTQ]

ProfJohnL
Your lengthy dissertation makes your view on Tyron Bands crystal clear.
It however fails to address the point I made about your own very misleading statement which underpins that view,and is the essence of the bands function.
To quote you:
"The job the bands are claimed to do which is to prevent the bead of the deflated tyre from slipping into the throat of the rim. All modern wheel rims include a ridge which does exactly the same job, which renders the bands unnecessary."
You might like to consider how our tyres can be removed from the rim or even fitted in the first place, if all modern rims, exactly like bands, "prevent the bead of the deflated tyre from slipping into the throat of the rim"?

Whether or not tyres leaving rims in on road failures is a big issue, is not being contested.
The point being made is your criticism of these bands is argued on at least one , obvious wrong and wholly misleading statement, and one at the very essence of the technology employed.
For constructive assessments of engineering, it is important to base arguments on sound reasoning.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi,
there has been several threads on this subject over the years and concrete evidence has never been forthcoming either way, it is down to that usual caravan senario again personal choice.
bands are marketed as a safety device in the event of a major tyre deflation (blowout) much like stabiliser hitches are marketed as anti snake devices, they are not! neither product will prevent an occurance happening in the first place only the driver can do that, wether a tyre will run off the rim in a rapid deflation is in my view an open question that has never been answered simply because no one has done exhaustive tests either way,
In this I am with the Prof, if there was conclusive proof that bands work in every occurance manufacturers would use them and become a standard fit, this does not happen why! because punctures and blowouts are a rare incidents made rarer by the evolution of tyre design,
rather than debating the pro and cons of bands, surely a bigger question should be if blowouts are such a serious problem why are caravans NOT using run flat tyres in the first place.

 

[Dustydog]

IMO the bands are not a good buy. The concept is fine but may inadvertently give you a false sense of security.
as Colin says checking your tyres regularly and replacing every 5 years is the best plan
sooner or later someone may fit run flat tyres to caravans but I haven't seen
any yet.

I have a TA .One of the rear axle tyres suffered a puncture a few years ago. Not a blow out. The first I knew was a really weird tremor vibration. The coins in the armrest tray were "tinkling".
A bit like a wheel out of balance but not so pronounced.
I agree with the Prof the other tyre took all the strain but not for very long. I'd be very surprised if you would not notice a tyre failure on a ta. The vibration was
so unusual you just have to stop for a check.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello JTQ,

I have to disagree. what's important and the thrust of the thread is if the bands offer any safety or other benefit. That in my opinion is not proven for reasons already given.

It may be of technical interest how bands are fitted and what they are supposed and how they to do, and there is no doubt the bands would prevent the bead from falling into the well, but are the beads actually likely to get to the point where they could fall into the well in real life. I think the measures wheel and tyre manufacturers have used has reduced that possibility to an acceptable level which offers a considerable margin safety, without the need for bands.

I am not going to get into a further protracted debate on this topic unless new hard evidence is forthcoming.

If the manufacturers have any good provable evidence they must get it into the public domain. Their reticence to do so in the past does them no favours, and it reinforces the suspicion the devices are not vital or have the benefits their advertising suggests.

 

[Lonesome-Whizkid]

Just thought I'd add to this thread since I'm still reading about safety issues mainly on motorway's, If you happen to get a flat and you make it to the hard shoulder but its too dangerous to change the tyre at that point, I've been advised to either call the RAC or the AA to assist, Or have a can of that tyre inflator stuff you spray into the valve and it gives you a temporary puncture repair till you can reach a point of safety. So my question is, Does anyone else carry a can of this puncture foam and have they used it and how effective is it, Does it do the job?

 

[ProfJohnL]

I have a can, which came with my car, but I've never had cause to use it. I'm certain they'll work. But I have heard once you have used the can, most tyre companies will refuse to repair the tyre, because they cant guarantee the vulcanisation process will work properly.

Also if a tyre has run flat for any distance, the side walls of the tyre will have been severely compromised. If you use the can, the tyre may actually be unsafe and more likely to have a blow out further down the road.

 

[Lonesome-Whizkid]

Do you mean they wont fix the tyre and will insist on a new tyre no matter what, or do you mean the steel wheel or alloy is also damaged? Forgive my lack of knowledge but what is the vulcanisation process when talking about tyres and wheels? I should know this as I spent quite some time as a kwik fit tyre and exhaust fitter.

 

[SteveW77]

Do you mean they wont fix the tyre and will insist on a new tyre no matter what, or do you mean the steel wheel or alloy is also damaged? Forgive my lack of knowledge but what is the vulcanisation process when talking about tyres and wheels? I should know this as I spent quite some time as a kwik fit tyre and exhaust fitter.

That says all I need to know about Kwik Fit

 

[JimD1]

Just thought I'd add to this thread since I'm still reading about safety issues mainly on motorway's, If you happen to get a flat and you make it to the hard shoulder but its too dangerous to change the tyre at that point, I've been advised to either call the RAC or the AA to assist, Or have a can of that tyre inflator stuff you spray into the valve and it gives you a temporary puncture repair till you can reach a point of safety. So my question is, Does anyone else carry a can of this puncture foam and have they used it and how effective is it, Does it do the job?

I don't think that a can of spay would have fixed this caravan tyre...........

Total delamination on the M5 just south of Exeter tyre tread overtook us as I was gently slowing down & pulling over onto the hard shoulder.

Jim

 

[ProfJohnL]

All tyre companies have a duty of care to inform a customer if what the customer wants ( E.g. a puncture repair) cannot be safely achieved. That means the company must be certain the process they use to repair the tyre will work. If for any reason they have any doubt about the success of a repair they are duty bound to refuse to do the repair.

No tyre company can tell to replace a tyre, that is your choice, but they can condemn a tyre if it exhibits certain characteristics.

Wikipedia tells us "Vulcanization (or vulcanisation) is a chemical process for converting rubber or related polymers into more durable materials via the addition of sulfur[1] or other equivalent curatives or accelerators. These additives modify the polymer by forming crosslinks (bridges) between individual polymer chains.[2][3] Vulcanized materials are less sticky and have superior mechanical properties"

Basically the rubber compound repair plug needs to be soft and pliable for it to be inserted, but if its too soft to stay in place and provide the durability needed for a reasonable life, so the plug is chemically changed or "vulcanised"

I have to presume the puncture repair cans contain various chemicals which may render the repair process ineffective.

Would you want to be running a suspect tyre? or be held responsible for allowing a suspect tyre to be used?

 

[Dustydog]

The RAC carry a maroon wheel and tyre with a multi adjustable centre that will fit most 4 or 5 stud hubs .experience has taught them that the air cans are absolutely useless..Their priority is removal of the vehicle to a safe place .Invariably a new tyre will be fitted providing the wheel is still serviceable

 

[JTQ]

My experience is that a caravan tyre is wrecked before we know there is a problem. There simply is not sufficient "feel" transmitted to the driver that the tyre is losing pressure, and hence the walls are excessively flexing and overheating. The extra few KW "drag" the punctured tyre inflicts on a tow vehicle of 150kw plus engine power, being concentrated into the tyrewall felexing, is unnoticeable by the driver.. Whereas with a car there is the associated feel of the handling, so a chance of being noticed.
This accounts for the abnormally high incidence of "blow-outs" in caravan tyres relative car tyres, much as it does for lorry tyre catastrophic failure. I in 35 years have had two blow-outs and one puncture but even that had written off the tyre from sidewall damage. Solo driving over 50 years, and half a million miles I have never had a blow-out, punctures a plenty.
I feel this leads to my opinion that TPMS for caravan tyres being an excellent theoretical investment; sadly my experience is that the aftermarket equipment I have knowledge of it that it is abysmally unreliable.