Motty: misleading advice

Mel

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In the latest PC, Motty gives advice to Roy Munford (page 99) who asks if he needs an Al-Ko towball for his new van which has an Al-KO stabiliser. Motty's advice is that you don't need the same make of tow-ball as stabiliser and then goes on about Mr Munford's outfit match; thereby missing out on the crucial piece of information and the whole point of the question. So, if you reading this Mr Roy Munford, No, you do not need an Al-Ko brand towball, but if you have a fixed towball you MUST get one with an extended neck if you have an Al-Ko stabiliser. An ordinary fixed towball without the extended neck can result in the hitch becoming unhitched. Have a look at the Al-Ko website or talk to a reputable car parts shop.

Come on Motty, wake up and answer the questions properly. They are not all just about outfit matches. I spotted this one and I am among the least technical on this forum.
mel
 
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I'm impressed Mel. Go to the top of the class
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Mel said:
An ordinary fixed towball without the extended neck can result in the hitch becoming unhitched.

That's not the case. What can happen is that the bumper may get damaged because there is not enough clearance between the towball and the bumper and/or the towball may get scored if not all the dimensions are as specified in Directive 94/20/EC (which some bolt-on ones are apparently not - presumably for cost-cutting reasons). Damage will occur before there is any danger of the coupling getting unhitched.
 
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Well, regardless of the actual specifics, surely that's still a cause for concern which ought to have been mentioned in the article?
 
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To perhaps put the odd reader at ease a bit, I just wanted to point out that not having an extended towball is not really a safety issue but can only result in cosmetic damage.
 
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We were provided with a hire company Land Rover Discovery3 this summer for our holiday trip as our car was being repaired, the first Disco that was delivered had a tow ball that had plenty of clearance around it, if it had been near the bumper it would have cleared it with ease, the ball was more rounded on the under side without machined bottom edge and swan neck provision.
The caravan AlKo hitch would not fit due to the lack of clearance on the under side of the ball.
Our standard trailer hitch fitted fine, less than 12 hours before catching the ferry we had garage and hire companies searching for a Disco or the like with a swan neck tow hitch.
Swan Neck and extended Swan Neck are two different issues as far as I know, You need a swan neck with clearance under the ball for an AlKo hitch, but you may need an extended swan neck to also provide bumper clearance with some cars and tow bars,
 
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Reputable towbar manufacturers offering swan neck towbars already have provisions for AlKo hitches without the need for specific AlKo requirements. I have never heard of anyone making two different swan necks for the same car, one for AlKo hitches and the other without, but that doesn't mean that they might not exist. But anyway, it wouldn't make sense to have two sorts.
Regarding clearance under the ball, the machined bottom edge that you refer to is actually specified in the standards. If the edge was not present, the towball was plainly not according to the standards. As I mentioned in my previous reply, the machining operation was presumably left out for cost cutting reasons.
 
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Something must be lost in the translation
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You can have the older style fit tow ball that fit to the tow bar with two bolts but now comes with more clearance 'swan neck' stylee where the neck is machined under the ball and is longer to provide more clearance. But can still be rather close to the bumper.
The longer/extended modern style 'swan necks' protrude further in the style of many detachable tow ball swan necks.
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Anyone confused? I think I am
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but I understand it
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Mel

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Lutz, I have often said that I have no technical knowledge. I am sure that you have more expertise than me, however I do have the ability to read. My comment about the potential for the unit to become unhitched was taken straight off the "Alko guide to towballs" Feb 09. It says, and I quote

There are many towballs on the market that are not suitable for use with AL-KO stabilisers as they do not have the necessary length of neck to allow the correct amount of axial rotation.

These towballs should
NOT
be used with an AL-KO stabiliser. Use of this type of ball could result in the vehicles becoming in-hitched, your stabiliser being damaged and/or a very serious accident happening.

Mel.
 
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I had a feeling that Mel wouldn't have just made a statement of a technical nature off the top of her head, without evidence to back it up. Leaving aside the actual specifics (I'm not going to presume to comment on them), no-one has praised Mel for bringing to light something which could indeed affect people in some way. Apart from Dusty (unless his comment was tongue in cheek, in which case tap him on the nose with a rolled up newspaper! Oops, I'll have the dog lovers on my back - it's just a joke, honest!
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). Well, I think Mel is to be applauded for making her post in this apparently male-dominated caravanning world. Even if I knew something about anything technical (highly unlikely, I know), I would think twice about saying it on here - I've said loads of times that I know zilch about techie stuff and I'd be laughed out of town if I tried to post a serious comment on a technical subject. Good on you, Mel.
 

Mel

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Thank you Sue. I appreciate your kind words and the time you have taken to write them.
all the best
mel
 

Parksy

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Soozeeg said:
I had a feeling that Mel wouldn't have just made a statement of a technical nature off the top of her head, without evidence to back it up. Leaving aside the actual specifics (I'm not going to presume to comment on them), no-one has praised Mel for bringing to light something which could indeed affect people in some way. Apart from Dusty (unless his comment was tongue in cheek, in which case tap him on the nose with a rolled up newspaper! Oops, I'll have the dog lovers on my back - it's just a joke, honest!
smiley-wink.gif
). Well, I think Mel is to be applauded for making her post in this apparently male-dominated caravanning world. Even if I knew something about anything technical (highly unlikely, I know), I would think twice about saying it on here - I've said loads of times that I know zilch about techie stuff and I'd be laughed out of town if I tried to post a serious comment on a technical subject. Good on you, Mel.
I take your point about certain parts of the forum being slightly male dominated but everyone has a voice on this forum and if the ladies wish to raise points of view or an issue that concerns them I'd like to think that the gentlemen of the forum would treat them with as much respect and courtesy as they treat each other
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That's not saying much though
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Seriously though, posts from ladies are always more then welcome here and Mel has obviously taken care to research this issue and knows that she is correct.
 
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Mel said:
Lutz, I have often said that I have no technical knowledge. I am sure that you have more expertise than me, however I do have the ability to read. My comment about the potential for the unit to become unhitched was taken straight off the "Alko guide to towballs" Feb 09. It says, and I quote

There are many towballs on the market that are not suitable for use with AL-KO stabilisers as they do not have the necessary length of neck to allow the correct amount of axial rotation.
These towballs should NOT be used with an AL-KO stabiliser. Use of this type of ball could result in the vehicles becoming in-hitched, your stabiliser being damaged and/or a very serious accident happening.

Mel.

Sorry, I didn't mean to criticise you if you got the information from the AlKo website, but I don't understand the logic of it. The conditions would have to be really exceptional for a coupling which is in proper working order to become unhitched. The misunderstanding could have been avoided if you had written in your post that you got the info from AlKo and then I would have had to have a go at them
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.
 
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Soozeeg said:
I had a feeling that Mel wouldn't have just made a statement of a technical nature off the top of her head, without evidence to back it up. Leaving aside the actual specifics (I'm not going to presume to comment on them), no-one has praised Mel for bringing to light something which could indeed affect people in some way. Apart from Dusty (unless his comment was tongue in cheek, in which case tap him on the nose with a rolled up newspaper! Oops, I'll have the dog lovers on my back - it's just a joke, honest!
smiley-wink.gif
). Well, I think Mel is to be applauded for making her post in this apparently male-dominated caravanning world. Even if I knew something about anything technical (highly unlikely, I know), I would think twice about saying it on here - I've said loads of times that I know zilch about techie stuff and I'd be laughed out of town if I tried to post a serious comment on a technical subject. Good on you, Mel.
Oh no Sue , not the nose
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My comment to Mel was genuinely praise.
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Somewhere in the dark past, there was a case of a caravan becoming detached from the car. It turned out it had never actually been attached correctly so although, allegedly two " greens" were showing the hitch was merely resting on the ball. The ball was not the correct one as specified by Al-ko. The case in question was not far from my nec k of the woods and involved a Bailey S5 Senator.
Ok arguably it was the owners fault for not hitching correctly perhaps, but clearly the insufficient clearance between the hitch and bumper caused or contributed to this accident.

Mel, you are star and saty at the top of teh class in my kennel
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DD "Ok arguably it was the owners fault for not hitching correctly perhaps, but clearly the insufficient clearance between the hitch and bumper caused or contributed to this accident"

It is probably more likely that if the wrong ball was used the hitch detached as the ball used prevented the hitch from having the rotation it needs as would have been the case in the hire car we were provided with. If the ball is of an older style and not machined with a lip and enough neck clearance the rotation of the ball is restricted. My understanding is that with an older style ball that is rounded on the under side the hitch can lever itself if it does not have sufficient clearance and the catch assembly can break free of a rounded bottom side of the ball compared to the machined flatter lower edge lip of balls that suit the AlKo hitch.
Bumper clearance is more likely to cause cosmetic damage I would guess.
The hire Disco 3 we were first provided in August was a 2009 model with a well know brand of tow bar that is still on sale for Disco's. The problem was caused by the underside clearance not the clearance around the ball, fine with normal hitch on say a horse trailer but not with AlKo caravan hitch. Our own Disco's had the detachable LR balls supplied by dealers with the swan neck style ball.
 
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I don't know what you mean by "older" style, OmOnWeelz. The standard which includes the machined lip that you refer to has been in effect since 1994 so that's really going back quite a bit. The lip should therefore be present whether it's an "AlKo Special" or a regular towball. If the towbar manufacturer doesn't include the machining it clearly doesn't comply with the standard Class A 50-1.
The bigger offset that AlKo hitch requires is not covered in the standard, but it is usually referred to as a Class A 50-X.
Non-flange type swan neck towbars are referred to simply as Class A 50.
 
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I have no idea about towball standards or when they came in to being and quite frankly I don't really care. I assume as a customer with modern day consumer protection that the tow hitches fitted by car maufacturers or their dealers are legal and comply with the required specs.
I started towing in the days when tow bars were little more that a few bits of steel angle bar and a you could pick up a cast tow ball in a variety of outlets. The under side of the ball was rounded and often flowed in a smooth curve to the rest of the lump that was bolted to the bar or a drop plate and the underside was often quite thick and short.
Hire cars with tow hitches are not that common in the UK, we had a holiday booked and car couldn't be repaired by the time we were going away so we were provided with a Hired Disco to tow our caravan, I went to great lengths to explain that we needed a tow car suited to our caravan's weight and specified that we had an AlKo tow hitch that needed a swan neck style tow ball.
When the Disco 3 arrived unlike the hitch on our own Disco's the year old hire car had a tow bar with what I would describe as having a piece of box section protruding to the rear of the adjustable height plate and the ball appeared to sit on the box section with no lip to the underside of the ball and virtually no clearance on the under side of the ball so the AlKo hitch would not fit. It was also plainly obvious that if the tow car was on an up or down hill angle to the hitch the box section the ball is fitted too would have levered against the underside of the AlKo hitch. Whatever regs it may have been made to or should be made to it wouldn't fit and was obviously not safe.
When I contacted the hire company I was assued that the branded tow bar was a Landrover Approved tow hitch and that all the hire companies Land Rover fleet were fitted with the same tow bar assembly.
Having spent from 8.30 am until gone 4pm phoning our garage and hire companies many times as we had a 6am start the next morning to catch a ferry, in desperation I managed to get to talk to a senior hire car manager at the HO. of the provider In under ten minutes he had located a Disco 3 with a Landrover standard detachable tow hitch the same as on our own car and told me that this had happened before and that their Landrover cars now only came with the more expensive detachable L R towbars not the less expensive after market bars. Just back off hire the car was nowhere near us and I had nearly a two hour drive to the hire depot the car was at and they cleaned an preped it and waited for me to arrive as they closed at 6pm.
They also had two other Disco 3's with the same tow hitch as the car we were supplied with and I was told that it was not the first time they had encountered the problem and that from the bottom they had told top management that some of their Disco tow hitches were not suitable for towing everything.
Whatever the standards or regulations might be, if there is not enough clearance under the ball with a narrowish neck there is good chance something could go wrong.
The Disco's hitch looked wrong when I tried to hitch up our caravan compared to our own car. and it was wrong The tow bar was a branded item and I would have looked a complete chump if I had not checked and looked at the clearance of the underside of the AlKo hitch.
It doesn't matter what you understand, or about regulations or specs if you look at the hitch and it doesn't look right there is a good chance that it isn't right.
If the posts here have hilighted that there could possibly be a problem with some tow bar assemblies and hitches and carvanners check that their hitch has the correct ball and clearance all round and to the underside of the ball we should all be a lot safer from caravans straying from their tow cars
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OmOnWeelz said:
I have no idea about towball standards or when they came in to being and quite frankly I don't really care. I assume as a customer with modern day consumer protection that the tow hitches fitted by car maufacturers or their dealers are legal and comply with the required specs.

On the basis of your experience, that sounds like a dangerous assumption.
 
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As an aside , our dealer always ensures the vehicle towball is compatible with the hitch. In fact the last two Bailey's came with the correct Al-ko towball which the dealer fitted at collection. Ok this is no good if you buy privately. As far as I can see Swan necks all look the same to me
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On the basis the majority of caravans now come fitted with an Al-ko or winterhoff hitch why are the standard tow balls still made? The extended Al-ko ball would suit all purposes , wouldn't they?
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You have a valid point, Dustydog. The only problem is that the standards don't officially provide for the AlKo towball and towbar manufacturers are supposed to design according to the standards. Of course, one could change the standards, but as they are Europeanwide, one would have to get agreement from all particpating countries and we all know how long that can take. Some countries may have no real interest in changing the standards because virtually all their cars have swan neck towbars and bolt-on ones are a real exception.
 
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Lutz said:
You have a valid point, Dustydog. The only problem is that the standards don't officially provide for the AlKo towball and towbar manufacturers are supposed to design according to the standards. Of course, one could change the standards, but as they are Europeanwide, one would have to get agreement from all particpating countries and we all know how long that can take. Some countries may have no real interest in changing the standards because virtually all their cars have swan neck towbars and bolt-on ones are a real exception.
Thanks Lutz
If it was an aircraft part I bet the EU boys would soon make the change.
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The poor old caravanner always seems to be on the back foot as far as standards go.
 
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just read another totally missleading post about alko extended neck tow balls;.
No the reason for the extended neck is NOT to protect you bumper. If you carefully study and measure an Alko type tow ball you will find that the shank directly under the head is somewhat different than on a std tow ball.

I have an Alko type tow ball fitted . It has is 60mm from bolt hole to ctr , has 17mm reduced dia shoulder and complies with all necessary legislation .The legislation refers to forged tow balls, materials, yields stress and dia of the ball and not its hieght above the bolt holes. if lutz could kindly post the sections of legislation where an alko type towball does comply i would gratefull as i can not find anywhere that the towball does not comply with legislation or is not EC approved, unless of course Dixon-Bate and PCT have got it totally wrong...and i am sure both companies would be very interested to hear how they have got it wrong, after all they have been manufacturing towing equipment for over 100 years between the 2 of them.

This reduction in dia is to accomadate the lateral movement if the stabilizer. Due to the stabilizers increased dimensions a standard towball will limt the movement to about 15 degrees, where as an alko suitable towball is designed to allow for up to 25 degrees of movement.

With a the common forged length / dia shank the alko hitch can not only become detached but can also lead to damage to the towing vehicles structure. The alko stabilizer acts as a lever on the shank of the towball .

if you dont fit a tow bal suitball suitable for your type of stabilizer and you have an accident or a failure of some kind you may find your insurers say "no" to any claim.

Swan necks are simply to move the towball farther back from the rear of the towing vehicle. They also have the benefit of the reduce dia shank.

There is a comment on one post about " dangerous assumptions". Perhaps everyone should pay heed to that comment and its not uncommon on forums for posterms to make totally incorrect statements that may lead to some one being injured or worse.
 
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The following are all the dimensions relating to bolt-on towballs, as specified in the 94/20/EC Directive:

Kugelkopf_94_20_EC.jpg

Kugelstange_94_20_EC.jpg

Kugelstange_Abmessungen_94_20_EC.jpg


An AlKo towball will not have the 55mm dimension ("L" on the sketch), but will be larger.
 

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