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MTPLM
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In principle you're right, Colin, but as Alan from Swift tried to explain, the caravan manufacturers also want to offer models with an MTPLM below the theoretical maximum in oder to make them more attractive to those car owners with towcars that are not so heavy. What I can't understand, however, is why they offer models with totally oddball MTPLM's, like the 1058kg that you mention. Why not 1050 or perhaps even 1100kg? A couple of kilos either way can't make that much difference so long as they are below the ultimate technical limit specified for the chassis. Car manufacturers normally specify their towload limits in nice round figures, so why don't all caravan manufacturers?
hi all
I do understand the theory behind alan from swift post thats why I found it so interesting and helpfull. I had noticed that the alko chassis on my 380 bailey was extendable by up to 1mtr (by the position of 4 sets of bolts) it is on the shortest setting of course because it is only a 380/2 but in theory could be extended to accomadate a body of up to 5mtrs, plus having has the oppertunity of looking at a 460/2 model (identicle exept for the end washroom) thought the chassis were also identical exept for the position of the bolts that were a bit further apart (aprox 500ml)alans post makes perfect sense if the basic chassis structure was designed for a weight range between 1000kg and 1350kg as both models are within this range. however the 460 has a MTPLM of allmost 1200kg "150kg more" but the miro is only 50kg more @925kg.
Lutz posers a very good question why the oddball weight I wish I knew because with a miro of 875kg the user pay load is 183kg take off the weight of the mover 110amp battery two gas bottles and a spare wheel there isn't much left then add the weight of hookup cable waste/water hog clothes food and everything else you are on the max weight so the awning tv ect, has to go in the boot along with everything else.
surley if the the chassis construction permits a MTPLM nearer 1125 or 1150kg should not be out of the question as if a car is cabable of towing a van of 1058kg with all the stuff in the boot it should be able to tow one of 1150kg with all the stuff in the van where it belongs. should it not?.
I think an e-mail to bailey may be in order to find out.
colin
I do understand the theory behind alan from swift post thats why I found it so interesting and helpfull. I had noticed that the alko chassis on my 380 bailey was extendable by up to 1mtr (by the position of 4 sets of bolts) it is on the shortest setting of course because it is only a 380/2 but in theory could be extended to accomadate a body of up to 5mtrs, plus having has the oppertunity of looking at a 460/2 model (identicle exept for the end washroom) thought the chassis were also identical exept for the position of the bolts that were a bit further apart (aprox 500ml)alans post makes perfect sense if the basic chassis structure was designed for a weight range between 1000kg and 1350kg as both models are within this range. however the 460 has a MTPLM of allmost 1200kg "150kg more" but the miro is only 50kg more @925kg.
Lutz posers a very good question why the oddball weight I wish I knew because with a miro of 875kg the user pay load is 183kg take off the weight of the mover 110amp battery two gas bottles and a spare wheel there isn't much left then add the weight of hookup cable waste/water hog clothes food and everything else you are on the max weight so the awning tv ect, has to go in the boot along with everything else.
surley if the the chassis construction permits a MTPLM nearer 1125 or 1150kg should not be out of the question as if a car is cabable of towing a van of 1058kg with all the stuff in the boot it should be able to tow one of 1150kg with all the stuff in the van where it belongs. should it not?.
I think an e-mail to bailey may be in order to find out.
colin
Morning Lutz.
Missed your earlier comment.
My neighbour's selling dealer have a self imposed set of rules on what they will sell to customers dependent upon the towing vehicle.
In this case the '54 Kia Carens 2 litre cdi is rated by Kia at a max tow of 1250kgs. The Lunar's MTPLM was plated at 1285kgs.
Thus the dealer would not allow my neighbour to buy / tow the Lunar and use the Kia.
It was the dealer's idea to have the Lunar replated to 1250kgs which solves the problem. Lunar are happy to supply a new plate so everyone is happy.
There have been previous posts on this forum where dealers have sold people caravans far too heavy for the towing vehicle. I think it's good to see a dealer taking so much care.If Mods allows I am quite happy to name the dealer.
Cheers
Dustydog
Missed your earlier comment.
My neighbour's selling dealer have a self imposed set of rules on what they will sell to customers dependent upon the towing vehicle.
In this case the '54 Kia Carens 2 litre cdi is rated by Kia at a max tow of 1250kgs. The Lunar's MTPLM was plated at 1285kgs.
Thus the dealer would not allow my neighbour to buy / tow the Lunar and use the Kia.
It was the dealer's idea to have the Lunar replated to 1250kgs which solves the problem. Lunar are happy to supply a new plate so everyone is happy.
There have been previous posts on this forum where dealers have sold people caravans far too heavy for the towing vehicle. I think it's good to see a dealer taking so much care.If Mods allows I am quite happy to name the dealer.
Cheers
Dustydog
I don't follow the logic of this action by the dealer. The car is perfectly capable of towing the empty caravan, how the owner decides to load it is not the the dealers concern.
If the owner can't be relied on not to exceed the car's max tow weight, why rely on them not to exceed the caravan's MTPLM?
If the owner can't be relied on not to exceed the car's max tow weight, why rely on them not to exceed the caravan's MTPLM?
Chrisbee
Not my rules , the dealers. I guess the inference must be that if Kia say 1250kgs is the max and the dealer sells a caravan with an MTPLM of 1285kgs the dealer may have some responsibility if the car broke. I'm sure Kia would say "overloaded".
Still I can only report what happened and I suppose arguably it is fail safe perhaps?? Don't forget the dealers have liability insurance and it is possible the insurers have some say in these matters??
Cheers
Dustydog
Not my rules , the dealers. I guess the inference must be that if Kia say 1250kgs is the max and the dealer sells a caravan with an MTPLM of 1285kgs the dealer may have some responsibility if the car broke. I'm sure Kia would say "overloaded".
Still I can only report what happened and I suppose arguably it is fail safe perhaps?? Don't forget the dealers have liability insurance and it is possible the insurers have some say in these matters??
Cheers
Dustydog
Dustydog, your neighbour's dealers obviously doesn't understand what towload limit is all about. There is absolutely no disconnect between the caravan's MTPLM of 1285kg and the Kia's towload limit of 1250kg. The two figures are not directly comparable because the MTPLM includes the noseweight but the towload limit doesn't. As the noseweight is more than the difference between the two, i.e. more than 35kg, the outfit would not be illegal even if the caravan is loaded to its MTPLM.
Besides, it's none of the dealer's business to refuse sale of a caravan although it is his responsibility to make the buyer aware of the implications.
Besides, it's none of the dealer's business to refuse sale of a caravan although it is his responsibility to make the buyer aware of the implications.
Dustydog
I would either ask the dealer to allow me to sign a waver to state that I am fully aware that I cannot fully load the caravan, but I am about to change my towcar so I want the plate left alone. If they say no, check Lunar's website for an alternative dealer. With the lower MTPLM you run the risk of being towing illegally while still within the car's gross train weight as payloads are hardly generous to start with. As long as the owner is fully aware of the restrictions then I feel the dealer has done their job responsibly.
However, I have heard that if you have had a previous caravanning accident that the Caravan Club's insurance will only cover the van if it is within the 85% ratio. Obviously you are legally able to drive (as that is covered by your car's insurance), but there will be no cover for caravan damage.
I would either ask the dealer to allow me to sign a waver to state that I am fully aware that I cannot fully load the caravan, but I am about to change my towcar so I want the plate left alone. If they say no, check Lunar's website for an alternative dealer. With the lower MTPLM you run the risk of being towing illegally while still within the car's gross train weight as payloads are hardly generous to start with. As long as the owner is fully aware of the restrictions then I feel the dealer has done their job responsibly.
However, I have heard that if you have had a previous caravanning accident that the Caravan Club's insurance will only cover the van if it is within the 85% ratio. Obviously you are legally able to drive (as that is covered by your car's insurance), but there will be no cover for caravan damage.
I think the "oddball" pay load comes from the "European Standard" referred to by Andy of the Swift Group.
" All manufacturers keep the MTPLM low to ensure they match as many towcars as possible working to the payload allowance of the european standard".
I don't believe that "standard" has any statutory standing but others might know.
Certainly in the case of Hymer this is to a formula based on certain fixed allowances plus for each berth a per person allowance, hence the seeming odd resulting number.
Not something I like, to me the payload is the difference between the MTPLM dictated by the weakest relevant component, and the true MIRO that the maker achieves building the van.
This raises another important issue, don't be fooled into believing the quoted payload is available for you to use! My experience with both my last two vans is that the plated MIROs were quite unrealistically low. It thus screws up the diligent actions of people like ourselves who weigh everything to try and keep within the quoted "payload".
" All manufacturers keep the MTPLM low to ensure they match as many towcars as possible working to the payload allowance of the european standard".
I don't believe that "standard" has any statutory standing but others might know.
Certainly in the case of Hymer this is to a formula based on certain fixed allowances plus for each berth a per person allowance, hence the seeming odd resulting number.
Not something I like, to me the payload is the difference between the MTPLM dictated by the weakest relevant component, and the true MIRO that the maker achieves building the van.
This raises another important issue, don't be fooled into believing the quoted payload is available for you to use! My experience with both my last two vans is that the plated MIROs were quite unrealistically low. It thus screws up the diligent actions of people like ourselves who weigh everything to try and keep within the quoted "payload".
If the so-called 'European Standard' were responsible for the 'oddball' MTPLM's, then why don't Continental caravans have similar 'oddball' MTPLM's?
You are correct in pointing out that MIRO'S need to be taken as a guideline only. MIRO is specific to each vehicle/caravan but MTPLM is absolute, so payload is always variable.
I am always surprised by how many people, even in the industry, don't appreciate the difference between MTPLM and towload.
You are correct in pointing out that MIRO'S need to be taken as a guideline only. MIRO is specific to each vehicle/caravan but MTPLM is absolute, so payload is always variable.
I am always surprised by how many people, even in the industry, don't appreciate the difference between MTPLM and towload.
I don't disagree with any of you, in fact that was a new one on me! Technically and I believe legally there is nothing to force a dealer to sell you a caravan if he has reservations on any aspect.
My friend has the best of both worlds. He is plated with the lower MTPLM but can always put the higher rated one on if he changes his car. Same goes for Trucker of course.
What I'd like to hear are other dealers views and whether they adopt such a strict sales criteria? Indeed what do the manufacturers have to say?
Cheers
Dustydog
My friend has the best of both worlds. He is plated with the lower MTPLM but can always put the higher rated one on if he changes his car. Same goes for Trucker of course.
What I'd like to hear are other dealers views and whether they adopt such a strict sales criteria? Indeed what do the manufacturers have to say?
Cheers
Dustydog
Thanks Lutz, however I take my Hymer's 1827kg and latterly 1890kg MTPLM figures as rather "oddball". So some Continental manufactures seem no more rational than ourselves?
Your knowledge here please.
Where vans have three weights quoted, MIRO, MTPLM and "1" [which I know referrers to the axle's rating], which of the two later ones would VOSA and its European equivalents be interested in?
They only ran my van's two road wheels over a Reich tablet gauge and waved me on, so I never found out.
Cheers John
Your knowledge here please.
Where vans have three weights quoted, MIRO, MTPLM and "1" [which I know referrers to the axle's rating], which of the two later ones would VOSA and its European equivalents be interested in?
They only ran my van's two road wheels over a Reich tablet gauge and waved me on, so I never found out.
Cheers John
Swiftgroup
Your imformation re the axle weights makes good reading.
I asked bailey to increase my load rating, but was told it was already at its max.
At 1333kg, i can now see, assuming the same axle limits apply to bailey, why it was not possible, or worth while considering the 1350max rating.
Being over engineered says one thing to me, extended life, increased reliability.
With that in mind, my next van will be rated just over 1350kg.
Your imformation re the axle weights makes good reading.
I asked bailey to increase my load rating, but was told it was already at its max.
At 1333kg, i can now see, assuming the same axle limits apply to bailey, why it was not possible, or worth while considering the 1350max rating.
Being over engineered says one thing to me, extended life, increased reliability.
With that in mind, my next van will be rated just over 1350kg.
I was not aware that Hymer also plate such strange MTPLM's, JTQ. Could it be that your caravan was plated by the importer, Hymer UK, rather than in the factory? Just a thought.
VOSA would concern themselves only with MTPLM and axle loads. MIRO wouldn't interest them as there is no law which makes any reference to MIRO of a trailer/caravan. The picture is a bit different with the towcar, though, as its MIRO has direct influence on what you may legally drive on a category 'B' licence.
VOSA would concern themselves only with MTPLM and axle loads. MIRO wouldn't interest them as there is no law which makes any reference to MIRO of a trailer/caravan. The picture is a bit different with the towcar, though, as its MIRO has direct influence on what you may legally drive on a category 'B' licence.
hi all
nice one trucker thats is real service.
while I am here a little update..I did e-mail bailey about the reasons for varying some vans MTPLM's but no word yet.
however on the official bailey site it does state that a higher MTPLM plate can be obtained by contacting their dealer network.
but no details on by how much,
the other thing I noticed on there is that for 2009 it seems the 380 ranger is back oh yes with a MTPLM of,
wait for it.
975kg so that it....no room for the awning in there then.
colin
nice one trucker thats is real service.
while I am here a little update..I did e-mail bailey about the reasons for varying some vans MTPLM's but no word yet.
however on the official bailey site it does state that a higher MTPLM plate can be obtained by contacting their dealer network.
but no details on by how much,
the other thing I noticed on there is that for 2009 it seems the 380 ranger is back oh yes with a MTPLM of,
wait for it.
975kg so that it....no room for the awning in there then.
colin
Am I missing something here? surely if plod pulls you over or you want an 85% match it is the actual weight of the van/trailer at that time that is relevant not what the plate says, assuming that the van weighs less than the MTPLM.
Take this scenario for instance
Caravan
MIRO 1266kg
MTPLM 1600kg
Car
Kerbweight 1765kg (50% = 1500 kg)
Manufacturers max tow weight = 1500 kg
A bad / illegal match according to some but if the van is not loaded to more than 1500 kg (234kg payload), what's the problem?
In my book the MTPLM is only relevant as a max weight of the van and is irrelevant as to what you tow the van with.
MIRO + usual payload is the key calculation in choice of towcar as the difference between MIRO nad MTPLM can vary enormously from van to van.
Take this scenario for instance
Caravan
MIRO 1266kg
MTPLM 1600kg
Car
Kerbweight 1765kg (50% = 1500 kg)
Manufacturers max tow weight = 1500 kg
A bad / illegal match according to some but if the van is not loaded to more than 1500 kg (234kg payload), what's the problem?
In my book the MTPLM is only relevant as a max weight of the van and is irrelevant as to what you tow the van with.
MIRO + usual payload is the key calculation in choice of towcar as the difference between MIRO nad MTPLM can vary enormously from van to van.
I dont think your missing anything Garfield.
My match with the car is fine, the problem I had was when weighing things into the van it only left me with 52kg for bedding cloths and food oh and awning, so I asked swift to increase the mtplm by 60kg, which they did as the theoretical MAX mtplm for my van is 1500kg but the published declared mptlm was only 1348kg.
The official mtplm for my caravan is now 1408kg and I have a new plate and new caravan council certificate
Kevin
My match with the car is fine, the problem I had was when weighing things into the van it only left me with 52kg for bedding cloths and food oh and awning, so I asked swift to increase the mtplm by 60kg, which they did as the theoretical MAX mtplm for my van is 1500kg but the published declared mptlm was only 1348kg.
The official mtplm for my caravan is now 1408kg and I have a new plate and new caravan council certificate
Kevin
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