New Caravan checklist

[Icaru5]

...

Caravan - Well, how can it be “Well made” ? , it’s made from recycled polystyrene, cardboard, wood shavings and screws, all mounted on a chassis without any shock absorption and so gets shaken to bits along every journey.

Of course it isn’t well made, it can’t possibly be, but I knew that before ordering it. With regards to carrying out DIY fixes and reference to the warranty, I’m sure this will come as a surprise to many, but I have no intention of ever returning my 2017 caravan to a “dealer” for an annual service in the interest of preserving its so-called “warranty”.

Again, I’m repeating myself, but it’s a trailer. It’s my trailer and if it’s broke, I fix it, and the pleasure I get from fixing it far outweighs any pleasure I would get from allowing someone else to do it only because they are duty bound, whether paid to do so or not.

... I can’t help but think that people’s expectations are far too unrealistic, most likely because they don’t really understand what they’ve actually bought.
...

Hello Icarus

Flying too close to the sun again?

You are of course entitled to do with your caravan as you wish, but as Parksey has stated its not a course of action that can be whole hardheartedly recommended.

I do take issue particularly with your last inference about people expectations are too high. I'n not sure where you have been for the last 40 years, but sellers who used to be ripoff merchants and did sell absolute junk with no customer recourse for a remedy, are now faced with a raft of legislation that very clearly puts them in their place, Formerly known as the Sale of Goods Act 1979 (SoGA) and recently updated to the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (CRA). Whilst I do not claim these acts have been the only driving force, but look at the way cars have generally improved over the same period, and how much better made they are today compared with the 1970's, and how dealerships are generally more customer focused than they used to be.

When ever I buy a new product whether it's a light bulb or washing machine, I have a legal right and expectation that it will have been properly tested to remove any inherent design faults, specified using the optimum materials, manufactured correctly. Any failure in these criteria is a breach of the legislation, and the seller will know that I the product I have purchased is not of satisfactory quality. I have never purchased a brand new caravan, but exactly the same criteria would apply.

Properly managed, some recycled materials are just as good as those made from prime sources, Some recycled materials can be better that original becasue they have been treated to prevent degradation during their re-manufacturing processes. Many recycled materials are more economic of raw material stock, such as veneering on particle board, so not only produces a more stable and sustainable products but also has cost benefits. However where I do agree with you is that there is strong thread of evidence that suggests caravan manufacturer's do not necessarily do the full research and development they should when using materials, which leads to products that do not withstand normal wear and tear very well.

That in no-way should be used to down-rate customer expectations, If sellers are not brought to book about such failures, the manufacturer's will not get the message about poor design, so the more customers return faulty goods, the more pressure will eventually be brought on manufacturers by the sellers.

The classic example of how customer pressure eventually paid of in the caravan industry (Though it took a very long time to occur) was with the construction and water leaks. Water ingress is still an issue, but it does seem that the new construction techniques introduces about 5 years ago have reduced water ingress issues on newer caravans, but it should never have taken 50 years for manufacturers to see their most costly failing, and even now they should be doing more to make caravans watertight for life without fail.

As I said at the top, you are at liberty to deal with your caravan as you see fit (except where legislation requires otherwise), but by taking your caravan out of the system, you are weakening the pressure on the manufacturers to the job they are paid handsomely to do

Hello Again Prof,

Despite spending the last 40 years relentlessly trying, unfortunately I find myself too far from the sun during the winter months to even get close, but as they say “God loves a trier” !

Again, I’m struggling to understand the reason for the persistent comparison with the car industry but then I don’t really need to.

Whenever I’m out shopping for light bulbs and washing machines, I am fortunate enough to enjoy the same legal privileges as yourself, but where we clearly differ is on expectations. You are obviously well versed, no doubt through experience, when it comes to the naming of the various acts and legislation relating to the purchase of retail goods, even referring to them by their acronyms, all of which I’m sure “clearly puts them in their place”. I can fully appreciate how when somebody spends their hard-earned money on a big ticket item and then finds that it doesn’t live up to their expectations that emotions run high, they take to the internet and in a very short space of time find themselves armed with a multitude of legal phrases and expressions about which they no either very little, or nothing at all, hell-bent on inflicting retribution.

With all due respect, due to a total lack of interest, I have no knowledge of any of the legislation or acts that you refer to. That’s because despite whatever rights I may have in such a situation, unless it could prove life-changing, I have absolutely no interest or intention in becoming embroiled in a protracted, energy-sapping, self consuming crusade of negativity, preferring instead to resolve the situation myself, albeit at my own cost, or let go and move on, putting it down to experience. However it would seem that for many, it becomes personal, almost to the point of being an obsession, or at the very least a hobby,

Again, referring to your post, your frequent “should be”, “should never” and “should have” ‘s are all based on expectations.

Given that the huge number of complaints and constant criticism of the various caravan manufacturers by the overwhelming majority on here are all based on expectations, I’d love to hear your reasoning behind taking issue with my inference that expectations are too high !

 

[Damian]

I get where Icaru5 is coming from, and in a lot of ways I agree with him that problems with a big ticket price such as a caravan "should" be faultless on delivery to the customer.

The problems start with the manufacturing processes and lack of care and attention to detail, then to rub salt into the wound, caravan customers have to pay, as part of the purchase price, quite a lot of money for the so called PDI by the dealer.

Again this seems to fall very short of what is reasonable in as much as many minor faults are not picked up by the dealer workshop and are left for the customer to find.
Such things as loose screws and swarf left laying around , loose fittings, missing fittings, leaking gas/water pipes, loose electrical connections. etc.

I agree that trying to equate caravans with car manufacture is a waste of time and effort as they are in no way similar.
The only thing in common with caravans is when you get a bad car, such as I had and cost a lot more than a caravan, and was towed into the dealer on 29 occasions in 2 years.
At that time I was not as well conversant with the legalities and failed to reject the car, which I would do now.

Caravan makers and dealers have had a very easy ride in the past, but with the enhanced protection afforded now, hopefully will get better as more people reject faulty vans and not accept them.

The people with the ability to force change are the buyers, but sadly in a lot of cases the heart rules the head.

Yes the forum does show a large number of complaints of all makes, but remember the forum has a small number of caravan owners who post here, we never hear of the hundreds or thousands of those which have been and are problem free.

 

[Jules_ht]

The similarities between cars and caravans comes from the fact they are both a lot of money to buy new- second only behind your house probably. For that money you are entitled to expect it to be fit for purpose, and if you don't you're selling yourself short. I can see Icarus' point about wanting to fix minor issues that it'd be more hassle to return than to fix yourself (rather than returning it just to make the point and try and improve dealer and manufacturer behaviour), but if that fix undermines your warranty or costs you a lot of money then you've got to question the sense in that.

Perhaps it comes down to the value of money to you. Personally there is no way I have £20K knocking about for a new van (in much the same way as I don't have that money spare for a brand new car), not least because I don't personally see that the benefits of owning from new outweigh the cost in terms of depreciation. If I did change my mind though, and I understand the reasons many do take an alternative view to me, I'd value that £20K far too highly to expect or allow shoddy workmanship or materials to affect the life or usefulness of the item. I'd apply that same logic to a washing machine for 1/40th of the amount of money- but maybe that's just me!

I do support in a sense the sentiment of market pressure driving improvements in quality. Look at the car industry in the 70s in the UK- some of the British offerings were frankly rubbish, and look at what has been the fate of those manufacturers (and the improvement in quality of cars generally since then). Even Mercedes took a bit of a hit in the 80s and 90s with quality and had to improve to compete. Regardless of how far down the chain of supply you are (i.e. buying new or buying 20 years down the line), quality improvements are good for all.

The issue with caravans appears to be that (a) there are relatively few manufacturers and they all appear to be as dicey as each other, (b) foreign imports of a higher quality are few and far between- leaving consumers without the option to vote with their wallets to any meaningful degree.

It does make sense to me to properly check your new (and arguably since if buying privately there is likely to be limited recourse, a "new to you" second hand) caravan, if only to avoid the hassle of having to take it back or fix a load of little things at both financial and time expense. Perhaps rather selfishly, applying pressure to the dealers and manufacturers to sort themselves out would be a secondary 'nice to have' factor if it were me though.

Some of that check-list seems perhaps slightly OTT (is it the end of the world if you're missing a chopping board- is a chopping board even standard? Do you really need to hook up a TV just to check the aerial is plugged in?) but most of it is common sense and would reasonably be covered by a thorough check. It is easy to forget things though, so that list would be helpful.

 

[Parksy]

...

Caravan - Well, how can it be “Well made” ? , it’s made from recycled polystyrene, cardboard, wood shavings and screws, all mounted on a chassis without any shock absorption and so gets shaken to bits along every journey.

Of course it isn’t well made, it can’t possibly be, but I knew that before ordering it. With regards to carrying out DIY fixes and reference to the warranty, I’m sure this will come as a surprise to many, but I have no intention of ever returning my 2017 caravan to a “dealer” for an annual service in the interest of preserving its so-called “warranty”.

Again, I’m repeating myself, but it’s a trailer. It’s my trailer and if it’s broke, I fix it, and the pleasure I get from fixing it far outweighs any pleasure I would get from allowing someone else to do it only because they are duty bound, whether paid to do so or not.

... I can’t help but think that people’s expectations are far too unrealistic, most likely because they don’t really understand what they’ve actually bought.
...

Hello Icarus

Flying too close to the sun again?

You are of course entitled to do with your caravan as you wish, but as Parksey has stated its not a course of action that can be whole hardheartedly recommended.

I do take issue particularly with your last inference about people expectations are too high. I'n not sure where you have been for the last 40 years, but sellers who used to be ripoff merchants and did sell absolute junk with no customer recourse for a remedy, are now faced with a raft of legislation that very clearly puts them in their place, Formerly known as the Sale of Goods Act 1979 (SoGA) and recently updated to the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (CRA). Whilst I do not claim these acts have been the only driving force, but look at the way cars have generally improved over the same period, and how much better made they are today compared with the 1970's, and how dealerships are generally more customer focused than they used to be.

When ever I buy a new product whether it's a light bulb or washing machine, I have a legal right and expectation that it will have been properly tested to remove any inherent design faults, specified using the optimum materials, manufactured correctly. Any failure in these criteria is a breach of the legislation, and the seller will know that I the product I have purchased is not of satisfactory quality. I have never purchased a brand new caravan, but exactly the same criteria would apply.

Properly managed, some recycled materials are just as good as those made from prime sources, Some recycled materials can be better that original becasue they have been treated to prevent degradation during their re-manufacturing processes. Many recycled materials are more economic of raw material stock, such as veneering on particle board, so not only produces a more stable and sustainable products but also has cost benefits. However where I do agree with you is that there is strong thread of evidence that suggests caravan manufacturer's do not necessarily do the full research and development they should when using materials, which leads to products that do not withstand normal wear and tear very well.

That in no-way should be used to down-rate customer expectations, If sellers are not brought to book about such failures, the manufacturer's will not get the message about poor design, so the more customers return faulty goods, the more pressure will eventually be brought on manufacturers by the sellers.

The classic example of how customer pressure eventually paid of in the caravan industry (Though it took a very long time to occur) was with the construction and water leaks. Water ingress is still an issue, but it does seem that the new construction techniques introduces about 5 years ago have reduced water ingress issues on newer caravans, but it should never have taken 50 years for manufacturers to see their most costly failing, and even now they should be doing more to make caravans watertight for life without fail.

As I said at the top, you are at liberty to deal with your caravan as you see fit (except where legislation requires otherwise), but by taking your caravan out of the system, you are weakening the pressure on the manufacturers to the job they are paid handsomely to do

Hello Again Prof,

Despite spending the last 40 years relentlessly trying, unfortunately I find myself too far from the sun during the winter months to even get close, but as they say “God loves a trier” !

Again, I’m struggling to understand the reason for the persistent comparison with the car industry but then I don’t really need to.

Whenever I’m out shopping for light bulbs and washing machines, I am fortunate enough to enjoy the same legal privileges as yourself, but where we clearly differ is on expectations. You are obviously well versed, no doubt through experience, when it comes to the naming of the various acts and legislation relating to the purchase of retail goods, even referring to them by their acronyms, all of which I’m sure “clearly puts them in their place”. I can fully appreciate how when somebody spends their hard-earned money on a big ticket item and then finds that it doesn’t live up to their expectations that emotions run high, they take to the internet and in a very short space of time find themselves armed with a multitude of legal phrases and expressions about which they no either very little, or nothing at all, hell-bent on inflicting retribution.

With all due respect, due to a total lack of interest, I have no knowledge of any of the legislation or acts that you refer to. That’s because despite whatever rights I may have in such a situation, unless it could prove life-changing, I have absolutely no interest or intention in becoming embroiled in a protracted, energy-sapping, self consuming crusade of negativity, preferring instead to resolve the situation myself, albeit at my own cost, or let go and move on, putting it down to experience. However it would seem that for many, it becomes personal, almost to the point of being an obsession, or at the very least a hobby,

Again, referring to your post, your frequent “should be”, “should never” and “should have” ‘s are all based on expectations.

Given that the huge number of complaints and constant criticism of the various caravan manufacturers by the overwhelming majority on here are all based on expectations, I’d love to hear your reasoning behind taking issue with my inference that expectations are too high !

Icarus, you won't be surprised that your comments represent a minority viewpoint.
We'll never agree, primarily because you are confusing 'expectations' with actual rights which are legally enforceable.
It's not a matter of 'buying a big ticket item that doesn't live up to expectations', buyers have the legal right to receive a fault free item, be it a camp bed or a caravan.
These items are advertised and sold as the epitome of caravan design and functionality, so if you consider expectations to be too high then perhaps you should point the finger at the industry which generates and encourages such high expectations in the first place.
I'm really glad that you've been lucky enough to buy a caravan with no major issues, and if you're happy to rectify relatively minor faults that's great for you.
An older disabled person, or perhaps a man or woman with no practical skills wouldn't be as happy as you seem to be though, and I seriously doubt if you'd have the skills, experience or equipment to replace a front or rear panel that has cracked because of a recognised design fault, as many buyers of new caravans have discovered.
Without pressure from social media internet sites, including this one, the manufacturers would have ignored the problems, shrugged off their responsibilities and blithely continued to manufacture total rubbish.
As a caravan forum we're lucky to have The Prof, along with one or two other loyal notables such as Dustydog ( who has actually forced caravan manufacturers to replace terrible caravans bought by people who were at a loss to know where to begin, on at least two separate occasions). These gentlemen have quietly and determinedly steered those who might struggle to dismiss the loss of twenty thousand pounds as a relatively minor hiccup, through the legal process to claim the rights that are enshrined by law, and it's not always been done in the public arena, they have offered extremely valuable support, advice and guidance off forum to my absolute knowledge.
Buyers of faulty goods have every right to seek recompense, and what may appear to you as a flood tide of negative miserable energy-sapping complaints and advice is created by a multitude who use this and other caravan forums to express their disquiet and disappointment.
If somebody swindled me out of twenty grand you can bet your house on the fact that I'd take it very personally indeed!
The number of complaints from a wide range of forum users represents the scale of the problem, and this problem lies firmly at the door of manufacturers and dealers, not the innocent buyers who have been cheated!

 

[ProfJohnL]

I have to disagree fundamentally with both Icarus and Damian on the point about comparing caravan manufacture to the car industry. As Jules HT points out, there are parallels, and so it is reasonable to compare the industries to highlight the differences, and especially the deficiencies.

The car industry is a good comparison to use for many reasons which includes the historical problems the UK Auto industry had in the past and how they have over come them. There are lessons to be learned that are entirely applicable to the UK caravan industry.

The argument about the investment needed to implement car manufacture type systems being to high cost for caravan manufacturers fails to take into consideration. It is true the car industry has probably spent several billion pounds on getting its act together to improve their manufacturing and assembly methods, but the caravan manufacture is a much simpler process and would not cost as much to implement. Bear in mind the profit margin in the car industry is much smaller than for caravans, so it should be doable.

A lot is about the design of the product, Obviously a caravan has to look right (which is a matter of personal preference) and function but it should also be designed with a view to prevent incorrect assembly. For example clearly identifying the necessary fixing points, prepared sealant gaskets, to avoid human error of not properly filling a joint, location pins to ensure correct alignments, etc etc. This is designing quality into the product, becasue you cannot create quality by inspection after the fact.

It would interesting to get some car manufacture production engineers to review the methods used by caravan manufacturers, their reactions would be most enlightening, and telling.

Sadly due to the history of abysmal quality of UK purchased caravans, the buying public has come to expect that every new caravan will likely have some faults. That is an expectation that has come about from historic experience. So much so that many will now accept as normal things like loose screws, screws missing, excess mastic showing, and a mirriad of other small issues. The big question is why do peopel accept them? I suspect it's heart ruling head, Great excitement when ordering a new caravan, which continues when its due to be collected with the anticipation of getting ready for its first outing, little things are easily over looked, or if something has been noticed the dealer saying it will be adjusted or put right on its first service.

There is an important lesson here, becasue whilst those who do have problems will be the ones to make a song and dance about on forums like PC's, we mustn't lose sight of the possibility that some caravan owners do get perfect caravans with no faults what-so ever. For the reasons above I suspects it's fewer than Damaian intimates, becasue of their rose tinted spectacles", but if the manufacture can do perfect once - why not every time? - It's the inconsistency of production that is what so galling, and having come from a manufacturer where quality assurance and customer focus were two of the conerstones of the business, and the difference it made across board was impressive, better product, lower costs, and satisfied customers.

It also meant that if a customer did have an after sales problem, we were able to respond quickly and usually positively even if the warranty had technically expired.

 

[Icaru5]

...

Caravan - Well, how can it be “Well made” ? , it’s made from recycled polystyrene, cardboard, wood shavings and screws, all mounted on a chassis without any shock absorption and so gets shaken to bits along every journey.

Of course it isn’t well made, it can’t possibly be, but I knew that before ordering it. With regards to carrying out DIY fixes and reference to the warranty, I’m sure this will come as a surprise to many, but I have no intention of ever returning my 2017 caravan to a “dealer” for an annual service in the interest of preserving its so-called “warranty”.

Again, I’m repeating myself, but it’s a trailer. It’s my trailer and if it’s broke, I fix it, and the pleasure I get from fixing it far outweighs any pleasure I would get from allowing someone else to do it only because they are duty bound, whether paid to do so or not.

... I can’t help but think that people’s expectations are far too unrealistic, most likely because they don’t really understand what they’ve actually bought.
...

Hello Icarus

Flying too close to the sun again?

You are of course entitled to do with your caravan as you wish, but as Parksey has stated its not a course of action that can be whole hardheartedly recommended.

I do take issue particularly with your last inference about people expectations are too high. I'n not sure where you have been for the last 40 years, but sellers who used to be ripoff merchants and did sell absolute junk with no customer recourse for a remedy, are now faced with a raft of legislation that very clearly puts them in their place, Formerly known as the Sale of Goods Act 1979 (SoGA) and recently updated to the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (CRA). Whilst I do not claim these acts have been the only driving force, but look at the way cars have generally improved over the same period, and how much better made they are today compared with the 1970's, and how dealerships are generally more customer focused than they used to be.

When ever I buy a new product whether it's a light bulb or washing machine, I have a legal right and expectation that it will have been properly tested to remove any inherent design faults, specified using the optimum materials, manufactured correctly. Any failure in these criteria is a breach of the legislation, and the seller will know that I the product I have purchased is not of satisfactory quality. I have never purchased a brand new caravan, but exactly the same criteria would apply.

Properly managed, some recycled materials are just as good as those made from prime sources, Some recycled materials can be better that original becasue they have been treated to prevent degradation during their re-manufacturing processes. Many recycled materials are more economic of raw material stock, such as veneering on particle board, so not only produces a more stable and sustainable products but also has cost benefits. However where I do agree with you is that there is strong thread of evidence that suggests caravan manufacturer's do not necessarily do the full research and development they should when using materials, which leads to products that do not withstand normal wear and tear very well.

That in no-way should be used to down-rate customer expectations, If sellers are not brought to book about such failures, the manufacturer's will not get the message about poor design, so the more customers return faulty goods, the more pressure will eventually be brought on manufacturers by the sellers.

The classic example of how customer pressure eventually paid of in the caravan industry (Though it took a very long time to occur) was with the construction and water leaks. Water ingress is still an issue, but it does seem that the new construction techniques introduces about 5 years ago have reduced water ingress issues on newer caravans, but it should never have taken 50 years for manufacturers to see their most costly failing, and even now they should be doing more to make caravans watertight for life without fail.

As I said at the top, you are at liberty to deal with your caravan as you see fit (except where legislation requires otherwise), but by taking your caravan out of the system, you are weakening the pressure on the manufacturers to the job they are paid handsomely to do

Hello Again Prof,

Despite spending the last 40 years relentlessly trying, unfortunately I find myself too far from the sun during the winter months to even get close, but as they say “God loves a trier” !

Again, I’m struggling to understand the reason for the persistent comparison with the car industry but then I don’t really need to.

Whenever I’m out shopping for light bulbs and washing machines, I am fortunate enough to enjoy the same legal privileges as yourself, but where we clearly differ is on expectations. You are obviously well versed, no doubt through experience, when it comes to the naming of the various acts and legislation relating to the purchase of retail goods, even referring to them by their acronyms, all of which I’m sure “clearly puts them in their place”. I can fully appreciate how when somebody spends their hard-earned money on a big ticket item and then finds that it doesn’t live up to their expectations that emotions run high, they take to the internet and in a very short space of time find themselves armed with a multitude of legal phrases and expressions about which they no either very little, or nothing at all, hell-bent on inflicting retribution.

With all due respect, due to a total lack of interest, I have no knowledge of any of the legislation or acts that you refer to. That’s because despite whatever rights I may have in such a situation, unless it could prove life-changing, I have absolutely no interest or intention in becoming embroiled in a protracted, energy-sapping, self consuming crusade of negativity, preferring instead to resolve the situation myself, albeit at my own cost, or let go and move on, putting it down to experience. However it would seem that for many, it becomes personal, almost to the point of being an obsession, or at the very least a hobby,

Again, referring to your post, your frequent “should be”, “should never” and “should have” ‘s are all based on expectations.

Given that the huge number of complaints and constant criticism of the various caravan manufacturers by the overwhelming majority on here are all based on expectations, I’d love to hear your reasoning behind taking issue with my inference that expectations are too high !

Icarus, you won't be surprised that your comments represent a minority viewpoint.
We'll never agree, primarily because you are confusing 'expectations' with actual rights which are legally enforceable.
It's not a matter of 'buying a big ticket item that doesn't live up to expectations', buyers have the legal right to receive a fault free item, be it a camp bed or a caravan.
These items are advertised and sold as the epitome of caravan design and functionality, so if you consider expectations to be too high then perhaps you should point the finger at the industry which generates and encourages such high expectations in the first place.
I'm really glad that you've been lucky enough to buy a caravan with no major issues, and if you're happy to rectify relatively minor faults that's great for you.
An older disabled person, or perhaps a man or woman with no practical skills wouldn't be as happy as you seem to be though, and I seriously doubt if you'd have the skills, experience or equipment to replace a front or rear panel that has cracked because of a recognised design fault, as many buyers of new caravans have discovered.
Without pressure from social media internet sites, including this one, the manufacturers would have ignored the problems, shrugged off their responsibilities and blithely continued to manufacture total rubbish.
As a caravan forum we're lucky to have The Prof, along with one or two other loyal notables such as Dustydog ( who has actually forced caravan manufacturers to replace terrible caravans bought by people who were at a loss to know where to begin, on at least two separate occasions). These gentlemen have quietly and determinedly steered those who might struggle to dismiss the loss of twenty thousand pounds as a relatively minor hiccup, through the legal process to claim the rights that are enshrined by law, and it's not always been done in the public arena, they have offered extremely valuable support, advice and guidance off forum to my absolute knowledge.
Buyers of faulty goods have every right to seek recompense, and what may appear to you as a flood tide of negative miserable energy-sapping complaints and advice is created by a multitude who use this and other caravan forums to express their disquiet and disappointment.
If somebody swindled me out of twenty grand you can bet your house on the fact that I'd take it very personally indeed!
The number of complaints from a wide range of forum users represents the scale of the problem, and this problem lies firmly at the door of manufacturers and dealers, not the innocent buyers who have been cheated!

Hello Parksy,

I wasn’t really aware that we had disagreed on anything ! - However, with regards to your suggestion that I am confusing expectations with “actual rights that are legally enforceable”, that couldn’t be further from the truth. In fact, it’s because my expectations are not in line with my legal rights that I am in the minority here ! - Whilst I fully understand that it is indeed my legal right to have a fault free caravan, I certainly don’t expect to have a fault free caravan.

As a fairly new member of the forum, and someone fairly new to caravanning, it’s great to hear that all members, and particularly those that are the most in need of help and advice can rely on a wealth of knowledge and experience from those who you mention, and many others. If I had a problem with my new caravan that was of a comparable magnitude to some of those you mention, then I too would choose to exercise my legal rights. However, not for what I consider to be nothing other than “niggles”, which life is full of, and it’s from reading posts from members which read along the lines of rejecting a new van with in excess of 20 different “faults”, that I am of the opinion that in general, expectations are too high.

Whilst I still don’t see a valid comparison between the car and caravan industries, I do agree with the Prof’s suggestion that the caravan industry could learn from the car industry. However, this would undoubtedly involve implementing a whole new production strategy, assembly process, and more importantly, culture. The cost implications of this would be colossal, and we all know who’d be picking up the tab for that.

In the meantime and in line with my expectations, whilst I appreciate that not everyone is able to do so, I’m happy to willingly and lovingly fix the smaller issues on mine as and when they occur, sometimes with, and sometimes without the invaluable advice of other forum members, and will keep my fingers crossed that I never feel it absolutely necessary to exercise that all important legal right.

Ic.

 

[Craigyoung]

Some of that check-list seems perhaps slightly OTT (is it the end of the world if you're missing a chopping board- is a chopping board even standard? Do you really need to hook up a TV just to check the aerial is plugged in?) but most of it is common sense and would reasonably be covered by a thorough check. It is easy to forget things though, so that list would be helpful.

That last paragraph could be comical as when we went to pick up a our new one , checked out what we thought we had to check out , took it home where on the drive and repacking it my wife normally puts the TV on the drive that was only thing , it had not been connected up properly so in your last paragraph where you say check the TV cables and connections - I would !!

Craig .

 

[KeefySher]

My expectation from a leisure vehicle such as a caravan is to enjoy leisure time. Leisure time is valuable to us as a family. It is not a time to be fixing basic faults caused by lack of care by assemblers of common parts, which is what a caravan is made of.

A not unreasonable expectation is to arrive at a site and switch on the electrics and have them work. Unfortunately our experience didn't meet that expectation on several winter nights arriving on site in the dark and rain. All the faults were through lack of attention to detail and care. None were within my capability to fix as I don't do electrics.

Similarly to arrive on site, my wife enter the caravan and be hit on the head by a non affixed roof vent that had been bodged in the assembly place; is an expectation few would have. In fact I wonder who would readily accept that as an expectation, let alone a reality.

In manufacturing simple is efficient. The first production lines were on the principle of KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid).

Caravan assembly doesn't require colossal investment. RFT (Right First Time), especially in a batch process, as used by the assemblers is probably the simplest of methods to employ. They know what they are assembling, time after time until the batch is finished, then change to the next one. The parts in each batch are common, the sequence is common, the application of gunge is common. It really is very very basic. TAKT is easy to establish and repeat. It really isn't complicated.

If the sales blurb is to be believed CAD/CAM is employed so variability of parts is negligible. Goes back to RFT, in addition PokeYoke or mistake proofing is a simple tool to implement. That does rely on collaborative working throughout the business, which may well be the issue most difficult to address, but certainly not a show stopper.

In the days of yore we lived in caves. Progress has been made, aspirations and expectations in concert with capability has advanced. The caravan industry has yet to deliver the expectations the marketing eludes to. It can only get better.

If I wanted a DIY hobbyist caravan, I'd have bought a doer upper. I wanted and paid for a top of the range, modern leisure vehicle; not an unreasonable expectation. What I got was a poorly thrown together heap of common poor quality parts and several ruined trips away with lack of use and more importantly 1 upset wife and a daughter who got to the point of not wanting to go caravanning. Our not unreasonable expectations of enjoying leisure time were not met many times.

 

[Parksy]

Hello Parksy,

I wasn’t really aware that we had disagreed on anything ! - However, with regards to your suggestion that I am confusing expectations with “actual rights that are legally enforceable”, that couldn’t be further from the truth. In fact, it’s because my expectations are not in line with my legal rights that I am in the minority here ! - Whilst I fully understand that it is indeed my legal right to have a fault free caravan, I certainly don’t expect to have a fault free caravan.

As a fairly new member of the forum, and someone fairly new to caravanning, it’s great to hear that all members, and particularly those that are the most in need of help and advice can rely on a wealth of knowledge and experience from those who you mention, and many others. If I had a problem with my new caravan that was of a comparable magnitude to some of those you mention, then I too would choose to exercise my legal rights. However, not for what I consider to be nothing other than “niggles”, which life is full of, and it’s from reading posts from members which read along the lines of rejecting a new van with in excess of 20 different “faults”, that I am of the opinion that in general, expectations are too high...........

I don't think we agree on the level of expectation when buying a brand new caravan, because I don't agree with you that minor faults or niggles are acceptable at the point of delivery.
I've bought and sold a few used caravans over the years, some were pretty good and one or two were sheds which I bought without knowing what to look for as a newbie caravanner, and I took the financial hit for my inexperience.
If I bought a used caravan now I'd definitely take a list of things to check, in fact I often supply a url to a good used caravan buyers guide to prospective buyers who join on this forum.
I'd expect to find a few niggles if no major problems existed, and if the faults were acceptable to me and within the scope of my d-i-y expertise my buying and pricing strategy would reflect the faults that I discovered during my inspection.
When I was eventually in a position to buy brand new caravans the price that I paid included the cost of a pre-delivery inspection carried out by the supplying dealer.
The fitters employed by this dealer are given a comprehensive list complete with tick boxes to 'prove' that the work that I paid for had in fact been done.
Why then would I be prepared to overlook the fact that the pre-delivery inspection that I've been charged for hadn't been done?
I accept your point about being prepared to tighten a screw or two, but no buyer of a new caravan should expect to have to become a caravan d-i-y expert, and if (and when!) I discovered even minor faults when the handover took place I'd expect an instant remedy or I'd reject the caravan there and then, no messing.
Most of the complaints about manufacturers on this and other caravan forums are not about a few loose screws or a minor niggle that anyone could experience after a few months of family use. The faults are, more often than not, fairly major and they happen time after time after time.
Even the relatively minor faults prove that the PDI wasn't done which is why we are doing our best to make potential buyers aware of their rights, and to encourage everybody to use these rights to the full.
This is the only way that quality standards and after sales service will ever improve, it won't happen at all if everybody accepts second best.

 

[ProfJohnL]

...

Whilst I still don’t see a valid comparison between the car and caravan industries, I do agree with the Prof’s suggestion that the caravan industry could learn from the car industry. However, this would undoubtedly involve implementing a whole new production strategy, assembly process, and more importantly, culture. The cost implications of this would be colossal, and we all know who’d be picking up the tab for that.

....

Hello Icarus,

Coming from an engineering background, and having some inside knowledge of the caravan industry from working with suppliers to the industry, I can absolutely assure you that significant improvements in design and production practice's could be implemented at little cost. I cannot understand why these companies are not interested in improving their products, as it means their overall liability to cover faulty products will reduce significantly, that's more profit on the bottom line. Yet year after year they churn out products with many of the same failure modes.

As it stands, customers already pay for the industries ineptitude, though inflated products prices to cover in service failures, and through frustration when a multi-thousand pound product fails for the want of some proper care in design or production, and the industries apparent indifference to their customers plight.

If you have no intention of using the manufacturers warranty scheme, or excising your legal rights, then you are over paying for your caravan to the tune of several hundreds if not thousands of pounds!

 

[Dustydog]

Never mind Guys you tried hard to explain our Legal Rights are well worth pursuing B)

 

[Raywood]

I do feel buyers should pursue their rights and not be fobbed off but some points are so minor that you have to draw the line somewhere. As an example one of the aerial connections on our caravan was loose, it should not have happened, but it did not justify the cost of hitching up and tasking it back. I accept that different people will draw the line in different places but serious problems should always be pursued and if need be use the small claims court procedures and then possibly the makers will get the product right or at least better.

 

[Craigyoung]

Same kind off thing for us with the tv points and connectors , cost us a 1oo mile trip but i wasnt faffing on when it was only a few weeks old !!

 

[Parksy]

I do feel buyers should pursue their rights and not be fobbed off but some points are so minor that you have to draw the line somewhere. As an example one of the aerial connections on our caravan was loose, it should not have happened, but it did not justify the cost of hitching up and tasking it back. I accept that different people will draw the line in different places but serious problems should always be pursued and if need be use the small claims court procedures and then possibly the makers will get the product right or at least better.

Same kind off thing for us with the tv points and connectors , cost us a 1oo mile trip but i wasnt faffing on when it was only a few weeks old !!

TV aerial and connection issues are surprisingly common on new caravans, which is why I maintain that it's vital not to become too carried away with the excitement of collecting your brand new caravan, but to keep a cool head and check that everything works before you head off for a holiday only to face the prospect of a possibly expensive return trip to the dealers.
The PDI that you paid for should have found these issues, and they should have been rectified beforehand, but it's becoming increasingly obvious from comments on the internet that caravan PDI's appear to be very cursory affairs with the main purpose being to generate extra revenue for the dealers.

 

[Dustydog]

I do feel buyers should pursue their rights and not be fobbed off but some points are so minor that you have to draw the line somewhere. As an example one of the aerial connections on our caravan was loose, it should not have happened, but it did not justify the cost of hitching up and tasking it back. I accept that different people will draw the line in different places but serious problems should always be pursued and if need be use the small claims court procedures and then possibly the makers will get the product right or at least better.

Same kind off thing for us with the tv points and connectors , cost us a 1oo mile trip but i wasnt faffing on when it was only a few weeks old !!

TV aerial and connection issues are surprisingly common on new caravans, which is why I maintain that it's vital not to become too carried away with the excitement of collecting your brand new caravan, but to keep a cool head and check that everything works before you head off for a holiday only to face the prospect of a possibly expensive return trip to the dealers.
The PDI that you paid for should have found these issues, and they should have been rectified beforehand, but it's becoming increasingly obvious from comments on the internet that caravan PDI's appear to be very cursory affairs with the main purpose being to generate extra revenue for the dealers.

I said on here a few years ago the manufacturers should supply a decent tool kit including a multi meter with instructions.My last caravan had some minor faults which I fixed myself. As Craig says there is a cost to keep going back to the dealer. So charge them! They are legally obliged to pay. But like me a quick fix is easier, so the Dealers and Manufacturers take the Urine. Who is the Fool :silly:

 

[ProfJohnL]

I do feel buyers should pursue their rights and not be fobbed off but some points are so minor that you have to draw the line somewhere. As an example one of the aerial connections on our caravan was loose, it should not have happened, but it did not justify the cost of hitching up and tasking it back. I accept that different people will draw the line in different places but serious problems should always be pursued and if need be use the small claims court procedures and then possibly the makers will get the product right or at least better.

Hello Ray,

You should advise the seller of every fault regardless of how small. If the goods do not match the contract or reasonable expectation, it is the sellers absolute duty to remedy the situation.

Not everybody feels competent to deal with some of the issues that arise, but why should they when they have paid for a fault free product.

Under the Consumer Rights Act is very clear, If the product is faulty, you are not obliged to take the product to the seller, The seller is obliged to retrieve, replace, repair or refund the product with the minimum of inconvenience to the customer.

You may of course come to an understanding with your seller about doing small repairs, such as re-tightening an aerial connection, but I repeat if you discover a fault tell your seller.

 

[Craigyoung]

DD quote
I said on here a few years ago the manufacturers should supply a decent tool kit including a multi meter with instructions.My last caravan had some minor faults which I fixed myself. As Craig says there is a cost to keep going back to the dealer. So charge them! They are legally obliged to pay. But like me a quick fix is easier, so the Dealers and Manufacturers take the Urine. Who is the Fool :silly: [/quote]

FOOLISH ?!? I checked all the ends before it went back , but im not going to start pulling units out to trace the cables to see the fault . It went back at time decent for me when we got the mover put on so it was going in anway .

 

[Brasso530]

To slightly hijac topic(only slightly),If you repair your own caravan do you invalidate your warranty?Its worth thinking about,as I bought my caravan at 18mths old from a dealer with nearly 50 yrs experience(but NOT ncc approved) who serviced and gas checked all appliances by their qualified lads.I then sent all paperwork off to elddis to change ownership/remaining warranty,only to be refused as someone non ncc approved had worked on van/stamped service book.
One year on my local ncc approved garage did a check/damp report,only to find damp over wheel arch behind kitchen units.Now,should I of taken it back to dealer and complained?probably? But could I be bothered to go through the drawn out process and hassle ,being a handy sort I put the awning up,removed all parts required,left to dry out,fit new wood and fridge vents( cause of leak-from new?)jobs a good en.
So I agree with Icarus on most points,but only because I think if want a good job doing,do it yourself but saying that if I did have elddis warranty I would defo of given it to dealer to sort out.
Beware if you repair your own van if it's still in warranty.

 

[Hutch]

To slightly hijac topic(only slightly),If you repair your own caravan do you invalidate your warranty?Its worth thinking about,as I bought my caravan at 18mths old from a dealer with nearly 50 yrs experience(but NOT ncc approved) who serviced and gas checked all appliances by their qualified lads.I then sent all paperwork off to elddis to change ownership/remaining warranty,only to be refused as someone non ncc approved had worked on van/stamped service book.
One year on my local ncc approved garage did a check/damp report,only to find damp over wheel arch behind kitchen units.Now,should I of taken it back to dealer and complained?probably? But could I be bothered to go through the drawn out process and hassle ,being a handy sort I put the awning up,removed all parts required,left to dry out,fit new wood and fridge vents( cause of leak-from new?)jobs a good en.
So I agree with Icarus on most points,but only because I think if want a good job doing,do it yourself but saying that if I did have elddis warranty I would defo of given it to dealer to sort out.
Beware if you repair your own van if it's still in warranty.

Gòod point Brasso, when my Coachman had to go back for a cracked rear panel, I paniced a bit as I realised the previous servicings although by a local caravan company did not have a NCC stamp, thankfully Coachman accepted everything and replaced the back end, but I now have the caravan seviced by a local and very good mobile engineer.

 

[Damian]

Maintaining the warranty is, or can be, a bit complicated.
The standard rules for the servicing side of things is :
1. The service is carried out by the supplying dealer. The dealer may not be a member of the AWS but he MUST be authorised by the caravan maker.

2. The service is carried out by a AWS approved member. All the UK makers have agreed to accept these engineers as approved to service their vans.

NO other person can service your van and maintain the warranty.

As far as carrying out your own repairs to a van under warranty, whatever you repair will NOT be covered by warranty for any further problems and your repair leads to other damage which is attributed to your work, that will not be covered.

Repairs: Most of the equipment fitted in the van, such as water heater, fridge, toilet, space heater etc can be repaired by any AWS engineer in addition to the supplying dealer as long as they are approved by the item maker.

Repairs to the fabric of the van , that is ONLY allowed to be done by the maker, or his approved workshop.

 

[Dustydog]

DD quote
I said on here a few years ago the manufacturers should supply a decent tool kit including a multi meter with instructions.My last caravan had some minor faults which I fixed myself. As Craig says there is a cost to keep going back to the dealer. So charge them! They are legally obliged to pay. But like me a quick fix is easier, so the Dealers and Manufacturers take the Urine. Who is the Fool :silly:

FOOLISH ?!? I checked all the ends before it went back , but im not going to start pulling units out to trace the cables to see the fault . It went back at time decent for me when we got the mover put on so it was going in anway .[/quote]
That's how I see it Craig. One of our loudspeakers didn't work. The cables hadn't been connected. Two seconds to fix. But like you no way will I start pulling our units to trace dodgy cables!

 

[Craigyoung]

DD , i unplugged all three cables , TV1 TV2 & the antenna cable , checked the wiring it seemed ok put them back in & nipped them up . Tried 2 TVs in each outlet , different cables to ,so I had no choice but to revert back to my warranty , if there is something I can do I will do it . before last when we went to france i snagged the cable in the battery housing around the door , that bust the hinge and had to sort a new lock out within a few hours before we due to go !!

 

[ProfJohnL]

.... before last when we went to france i snagged the cable in the battery housing around the door , that bust the hinge and had to sort a new lock out within a few hours before we due to go !!

Hello Craig,
There is a big difference between a "fault" and damage caused by an unintentional mistake. Warranty only offers protection again faults or failure under normal working conditions. A snagged cable in a door jamb breaking a hinge would not be a warranty matter.

 

[Craigyoung]

.... before last when we went to france i snagged the cable in the battery housing around the door , that bust the hinge and had to sort a new lock out within a few hours before we due to go !!

Hello Craig,
There is a big difference between a "fault" and damage caused by an unintentional mistake. Warranty only offers protection again faults or failure under normal working conditions. A snagged cable in a door jamb breaking a hinge would not be a warranty matter.

Yes , sorry I realise that prof , but my point was I do do some fixings myself if i can but with this being brand new and & I couldn't find the root of the problem that's why I went back for the warranty work but then you get people calling you foolish for taking stuff back !

 

[ProfJohnL]

... but then you get people calling you foolish for taking stuff back !

Tell who they are and I'll sort them out B)