New Forum:FAO Moderator

[Alex_374296729]

Is it possible to have a column or someway of enabling a search to deal with good and not so good dealerships. I live in Cornwall, and a large variety of dealerships are not to be found. Thus I have to travel out of area - therefore a lot of luck is involved in finding a good dealership. With reliability rates at about 85% for some makes the dealership is all important. The chat about a site in the Midlands is interesting but more is needed if we, the consumer are to get a better deal.

Yours views would be appreciated.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Alex,

Such a forum would of course be useful, but it is sadly unlikely to happen for a number of reasons. This forum is sponsored by Practical Caravan and they have a vested interest in keeping the content away from subjects that might put them in conflict with their paying clients.

Firstly I believe that Practical Caravan would not wish to upset their customers who fill their advertising space, by making qualitative comparisons between Dealers.

Secondly, What represents a 'good' dealer to you may not agree with everyone else's views.

Thirdly, such forums have a tendency to attract a disproportionate number of contributors who have a grievance with a trader. Such contributors are usually far more aggressive in submitting reports and thus it can unfairly bias the results and opinions.

If the forum was a simple contact list for dealers then that would not be contentious.

I am not connected with Practical Caravan or Haymarket

 

[Alex_374296729]

Thank you for your prompt reply John.

All of your points are relevant and frankly I agree with you.

However, if something were put together in the manner of an ebay system about satisfaction with a dealer then something maybe gained.

I purchased an Abbey from a large Midlands dealership, everything being fine until the service when 'parts' (a ceiling light) couldn't be found. They never returned calls etc and 3 years later have still not got back about the toilet float value. My brother bought a van from them, within a month of me and PDI meant no battery or gas bottles. The dealership are still turning out vans by the ton.

Perhaps another tack could be taken, that is a site only for good dealerships and experiences - no negatives.

Choosing a tow car is just that, with a van it is also the dealership. We surely have to have something better than the current mess.

 

[Dustydog]

Hi John L.

So who are Practical Caravan's customers? Us or the dealers?

The mere fact dealers advertise is in itself an affirmation they are prepared to stand up and be counted. I accept there will be the odd isolated "hatred" case but there was never anything wrong with the truth??

Cheers

Alan

 

[colin(bridgend)]

Going along the lines of Alan's posting - the advertisers pay Practical Caravan for their space - but what use is that if Joe Public did not buy the magazine -

 

[Moderator2_5083849]

Alex,

The idea of having a reference of good dealers is a good idea, but getting a list is the problem.

Service and satisfaction are very subjective qualities which each person has, and are vastly different, hence the number of different manufacturers, dealers and service agents.

What may be good service to one person will probably not be seen as such by another, so where does the line get drawn?

Similarly, having a list of bad dealers is the same, what may qualify as bad to one person would not automatically mean the same applied to another.

Thinking "out of the box", there is no list of good estate agents, for example, or many other customer related services.

One only has to look at site reviews to see that one site may be absolutely ideal for one family, but an absolute disaster for another.

The problem the owners of this forum face is verifying claims of greatness or badness, and if they get it wrong, then they would be liable to litigation by the offended party, which has happened in the past, and would certainly happen again.

Hope this tries to explain at least the pitfalls of what would be a great thing, if it were independently verifiable.

Mod 2

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello again Alex,

I have actually tried your suggestion of a good news only forum topic about 18 months ago, but hardly anyone responded.

Now either that either means few people have had good experiences, or it reinforces my point about only problems get peoples backs up enough to get them to write.

Alan,

Yes of course we are part of the customer base, but I suspect that if you were able to find the accounts of the magazine, you would most likely find that the advertiser make more than 50 of the magazines revenue.

Also, there has been a situation with an insurance company that took exception to comments made by a forum contributor, and as a result threatened legal action against the magazine. The forum has had to remove all references to the said company and all further mention of its name is now restricted and heavily moderated.

 

[Dustydog]

Hi John L & Mod 2.

I agree with your comments in part in so far as I fully appreciate the law of libel that may ultimately face Haymarket from an upset dealer following a members derisory comment.

There are other forums around that do not seem to have the same fears on libel as Haymarket. I do appreciate the point.

However other caravan mags openly encourage us caravanners to vote for our "dealer of the year". It is no surprise that only the really good dealers win!

How is it magazines like "Which" and the "JD Power Survey" can openly denigrate some manufacturers without fear of libel penalties?

Maybe Haymarket is being a little too sensitive??

"Forum" means :- a place of or meeting for public discussion.

I think it wil be a great shame for all us members if we cannot make comment about our dealer experiences.

If any of us have bad comments then I for one will be happy to have my details passed to the dealer I criticise for one to one discussion.Will that assurance satisfy the Libel Insurers of Haymarket? I guess that is what this is all about.

Cheers

Alan

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Alan,

I am glad you appreciate the possible issue of libel, as it is a real threat to this and other forums. As I understand it, Haymarket is a publisher and as such it cannot isolate itself entirely from the content of the forum which it owns and operates. Thus it is potentially open to libel action if negative comment are posted which are defamitory.

There is a major difference between the content of a published magazines such as 'PC & Which' and the content posted in a forum.

If we assume that a customer has a grievance and asks the PC Magazine to help, then the magazine will investigate and corroborate the complaint, and it will ask the accused for comment, to provide a balanced report.

It is accepted that the magazine has treated the correspondence professionally. And it would not knowingly place its self in a position to be sued for libel. (Unlike some newspapers)

The PC forum is fundamentally different, in that none of the contributors are identified (we all hide behind nicknames), and defamatory comments are not supported with facts that are easily corroborated. The company or person who is being maligned is not afforded the right to reply before the original comment is posted. So the forum is ever likely to be biased.

Again the difference between the forum and a magazine that conducts a comparison test, is that the magazine provides evidence for its findings, in the form of narrative and pictures, thus the results are probably beyond reproach. The forum is not edited to ensure balance, and there is little chance of all the evidence to support a conclusion can be provided or corroborated.

 

[Alex_374296729]

Thank you all for your response.

I agree with all that is said. The Moderator comment 'out of the box' is certainly true. Howevcr, my original point that those of us who do not live in areas where there is a large range of dealerships really have to hit the jackpot with a dealer each time we buy a van.

The dealership would not be such an issue if the manufacturer took more interest in the product and after sales service.

Surely just a tick box, with numbers 1 - 5 rating service would be a start, and no comments. Yes it is very subjective, but if moderated it would be helpful.

Thank you to all anyway

Alex

 

[KenWashington]

I'll bring this thread to the attention of the Editor.

In the meantime, don't forget the PCV Dealer of the Year awards.

http://www.practicalcaravan.com/dealeryear/index-winners.html

 

[Alex_374296729]

Thank you Moderator 1. That is not a sarcastic comment as it is meant - thus it is genuinely subjective.

 

[Dustydog]

Hi Mod 1

So there we go! PCV Dealer of the year is important to the magazine; and so it should be.

I and John L have covered the sticky subject of Libel although I am not sure legally just how far Haymarket are legally liable for statements made by forum members.

Can the Editor give us a definitive statement on what we can and cannot say about dealers please??

Alex is right . He needs to know the lie of the land before he ends up buying from a really good dealer in say Aberdeen!

Cheers

Alan

 

[KenWashington]

The position is as stated in the forum etiquette:

"You may not transmit complaints about named companies or caravan parks. Such individual issues should be taken up with the company direct."

This is partly to avoid the risk of litigation, and also to prevent a disgruntled customer from using the forum to exact his revenge against a company that has annoyed him.

So, individual complaints are not allowed. However I would hope that we can give honest and personal feedback on service and facilities, both good and bad, without breaking this rule.

If you didn't like a particular Caravan Park or dealership, you could say so in general terms - giving an opinion.

You could say, "We thought that the caravans were over-priced, and the staff unhelpful."

You can't say, "The warden was very rude and offensive, and the toilet block was never cleaned while we were there."

There's no 'definitive statement' I'm afraid. It's a matter of common sense and interpretation.

 

[Lutz]

Quite frankly, you're treading a very fine line there if you are going to allow "We thought that the caravans were over-priced, and the staff unhelpful", but not "The warden was very rude and offensive, and the toilet block was never cleaned while we were there".

Both could be interpreted as pure statements of fact, unmarred by personal opinion, although what 'rude and offensive' is maybe debatable, especially if the warden considered himself to be provoked in the first place. However, there can be no doubt about a clear statement about not having cleaned the toilet block.

I would therefore have great difficulty in distinguishing that fine line between what is and what is not allowed and I think a lot of other people would, too. I therefore believe you are asking for trouble without making a clearer statement.

 

[Dustydog]

Quite right Lutz,

taking a more simplistic view why can't we have a list of dealers and give them a rating as stated by Alex?

So rather than say the warden was rude I could say "No one has spoken to me in that tone since I divorced my spouse".

As I said before , I am happy to stand up and be counted if I have any adverse critcisms of any dealers and the like.

Feedback, even in general terms, is important to members who are the ones who through the purchase of their caravan pay all the salaries to all the staff involved, even Practical Caravan Magazine! No caravanners, no mag.

Cheers

Alan

 

[Alex_374296729]

Just looked at your Parks Directory. Something on these lines might work. A table with headings and a rating. If someone then wishes to make a comment, then a sub forum could fulfill this need which could be moderated if necessary.

To reiterate the problem. A while ago, I was considering buying a Hymer. This would have involved a considerable drive North for me. However reading this site, persons have had problems with the dealership - so decision made. Yet, there is a sister dealership near Reading and there is no information - as such I will also steer clear. This latter dealership maybe excellent but to me they cannot be good no matter what Prac Cara mag may or may not say.

Ebay is another example of a service that works, we as the consumer are taking a great deal on trust. Surely dealerships would want good customer feedback than spending all their cash on advertisements or is that the point?

Alex

 

[Jeff-Pontypridd]

It seems to be OK to say what we feel about accessories and the like, yet we are not given the same opportunity regarding dealers.

Allow recommendations I say!

 

[Alex_374296729]

Well Moderator, when do you think we can have a forum for good dealerships, even based on a points system.

Have just read the farce that Allan and Jill had with their Bailey and the water system. So far I am crossing quite a few dealers off my list. If they are to go back on then such a forum is in the interest of the caravan industry and their dealerships.

Alex

 

[KenWashington]

The sort of thing you are suggesting would involve considerable programming time and costs. There are several changes to the website and forum under development, so upgrading the present engines is probably not an option.

 

[Surfer]

Thank you for your prompt reply John.

All of your points are relevant and frankly I agree with you.

However, if something were put together in the manner of an ebay system about satisfaction with a dealer then something maybe gained.

I purchased an Abbey from a large Midlands dealership, everything being fine until the service when 'parts' (a ceiling light) couldn't be found. They never returned calls etc and 3 years later have still not got back about the toilet float value. My brother bought a van from them, within a month of me and PDI meant no battery or gas bottles. The dealership are still turning out vans by the ton.

Perhaps another tack could be taken, that is a site only for good dealerships and experiences - no negatives.

Choosing a tow car is just that, with a van it is also the dealership. We surely have to have something better than the current mess.

Do they have a dealership just north of Worcester?

 

[Alex_374296729]

Just looked at comments about a chap on your site who felt he got ripped off on servicing (in general comments section I think)

I am very poor on computer but I did the table below so surely something as basic as this could be achieved?!

Dealer Good 0 - 5 Service costs Quick response Comments

Bloggs 3

 

[Alex_374296729]

Sorry it was in a table when it started off, but I am sure the site must have some whizz kid who could fix it. Maybe there are others out there who could have a try?

Alex

 

[Dustydog]

Just got my latest PC mag. There is now a shortlist for the dealer of the year. What a joke! At least two of the nominees are known to a lot of forum members as rubbish. How did this shortlist evolve? Apparently from things the PC readers have said. Thus the weird corollary is that those dealers not shortlisted are not upto the required standard or they are just rubbish??

Seems to me the whole "contest" is absolute rubbish!!

Cheers

Alan

 

[KenWashington]

For most of the summer there was a link on the PCV website to an online form where surfers could vote for their favourite dealership.

www.practicalcaravan.com/dealeryear/

Hundreds of votes came in via the website.

There was also a paper form in the mag for serveral months.

There was a bribe - in the shape of an iPod prize draw for all who voted.