Definitely, yes. It 's absolutely vital that you get reliable information of the correct torque to be applied or else you could do more harm than good. It would be wrong simply to assume that the same torque necessarily applies as for standard bolts.otherclive said:
Lutz said:
Hi Lutz
I will of course ask the dealer when I collect the bolts but expected someone on here to be already aware of the correct torque figure
Bailey did increase the setting I understand
Regards
John
Logic tells me that the torque required for these bolts should be somewhat lower than standard bolts.
Wheel Solutions Ltd., as manufacturer of the bolts, are actually probably the best source of information for torque settings. After all, they should have done all their homework.
Wheel Solutions Ltd., as manufacturer of the bolts, are actually probably the best source of information for torque settings. After all, they should have done all their homework.
WatsonJohnG said:
Hi John,
This is a copy of the pdf that comes with the bolts from WSL......
The handbook for my Hymer states 120Nm for Alloy wheels & 100Nm for steel wheels....
Have been in touch with Bailey again. The torque required for these bolts is 130Nm (this is higher than the Senator "original bolts" figure)
All I have to do now is get round to fitting them!
Mike
All I have to do now is get round to fitting them!
Mike
Given that these new bolts have a higher torque spec and they are lower friction shanks with rotating conical washers The clamping force has been increased significantly. So too low a clamping force was the reason some wheels came adrift........ Quel surprise! My xc70 has similar design of bolts with a torque setting of 140nm but they are larger wheels but I don't have to check them every time I go on a journey.
Having a background that has involved quite extensive design experience and in service checking of highly and fluctuating loaded bolting systems I am firmly of the view the underlyling problem here lays with the very short working length of the wheel bolts used.
To remain tight whilst accomodating inevitably settling of all the loaded surfaces the bolt needs to store energy in its elasticity and given a set diameter, material properties and preload the amount of energy stored is proportional to its length. These new bolts amongst other features greatly increase the working length that is streched, so they remain tight from the stored energy if the clamped or otherwise loaded surfaces yield a little.
They are a great technical improvement on the original bolts.
To remain tight whilst accomodating inevitably settling of all the loaded surfaces the bolt needs to store energy in its elasticity and given a set diameter, material properties and preload the amount of energy stored is proportional to its length. These new bolts amongst other features greatly increase the working length that is streched, so they remain tight from the stored energy if the clamped or otherwise loaded surfaces yield a little.
They are a great technical improvement on the original bolts.
JTQ said:
That's interesting and reassuring
It makes me wonder about the design of the caravan brake drum as the depth of thread in the drum has an effect on the area clamped it would seem
When we lost our wheel the last half of the thread was ripped out of the hub as the bolts had loosened
The non spigot design also seems in need of attention I would have thought both from ease of mounting the wheel and security of fixing
Hi Clive
You comment:-
You comment:-
The evidence we have available may suggest what you say , but it is not a foregone conclusion.otherclive said:
WatsonJohnG said:
Spigots serve no part in wheel retention security though greatly assists in the process of wheel changing.
For a spigot in a reassmblable joint to be viable it has to have an amount of "clearance" ;you would struggle to get an adequately tight interference fitted wheel off the spigot. That reassmblable level of clearance is far greater than the minute movement needed to loosen a wheel; if the wheel could move across the clearance then its well on its way off the drum.
The thread failure you notice could simply be accounted for by the fretting a loosening bolt will cause?
The depth of thread only needs to be adequate such that the weakest of the materials used is well clear of being overloaded.
Mike_S said:
It should be noted that this is the maximum torque (130nm) that this bolt should see!!
My dealer now has the removal tools in stock but not the bolts as yet
I wonder if that means that they are all the same size and design
If so it would be wise to retain the existing security bolt I think even though they claim Prevents wheel theft
I wonder if that means that they are all the same size and design
If so it would be wise to retain the existing security bolt I think even though they claim Prevents wheel theft
WatsonJohnG said:
Hi John,
My bolts from WSL came with a removal tool with each set of five bolts
( as in the screen shot below )
Prevents wheel theft is mentioned @ about 2.30min
Hi Sir Sproket
I have ordered mine via the dealer from Bailey and they are costed per bolt and per tool
I have asked for 2 tools and 10 bolts
Although they claim security if all Bailey caravans have the same removal tool it will soon be a vital part of the thief's kit at £7 each
Did your 2 packs have the same tool ?
Obviously the extra security of fixing is the main requirement but I may fit my 2 security bolts as well just in case
I have ordered mine via the dealer from Bailey and they are costed per bolt and per tool
I have asked for 2 tools and 10 bolts
Although they claim security if all Bailey caravans have the same removal tool it will soon be a vital part of the thief's kit at £7 each
Did your 2 packs have the same tool ?
Obviously the extra security of fixing is the main requirement but I may fit my 2 security bolts as well just in case
Hi John
Yes they did have the same tool
Can't see why there should be a problem if you want to fit your security bolts as well as the new ones, just as long as they are all torqued to the same amount .....
Yes they did have the same tool
Can't see why there should be a problem if you want to fit your security bolts as well as the new ones, just as long as they are all torqued to the same amount .....
Sproket said:Hi John
Yes they did have the same tool
Can't see why there should be a problem if you want to fit your security bolts as well as the new ones, just as long as they are all torqued to the same amount .....
Thanks again for the reply and for posting the item in the first place
Having once lost a wheel due it was felt to tampering in an effort to remove the Alko wheelclamp I welcome the information and the opportunity to fit the improved wheel bolts
Its interesting to follow the ensuing discussion and hear different technical input
I hadn't considered the torque effect of using the improved bolts that have reduced friction and greater clamping alongside the older less efficient security bolts and as you say they should be OK
Perhaps JTQ could comment from his technical knowledge and appreciated input
Regards
Well I now have the new bolts fitted at a cost of £47 with 2 tools from my dealer via Bailey
I was advised to torque the bolts to 130Nm but was told that at 160Nm they had been known to strip the thread on the bolt
As the torque setting was higher than the old locking bolts I fitted the full set of new bolts
I forgot to ask what torque setting is recommended if the steel spare wheel is fitted after a puncture etc
I was advised to torque the bolts to 130Nm but was told that at 160Nm they had been known to strip the thread on the bolt
As the torque setting was higher than the old locking bolts I fitted the full set of new bolts
I forgot to ask what torque setting is recommended if the steel spare wheel is fitted after a puncture etc
Sorry for the delay I have only just found this.WatsonJohnG said:
The reduced friction of the new bolts, both Bailey's own and the third party ones will increase the tension achieved for the same tightening torque. My work has seen lubricants increase this by the order of 20% but here I have no knowledge of what lubricants either use. A great advantage of the lubricant is that it leads to much better tightening repeatability at least with new components, but as most quoted figures are for dry then without authority people must not normally lubricate other bolts. Its okay here as these specific bolts are prelubricated. One has to assume as both offer these higher loaded bolts somebody is confident the hub female thread can take the loads; it is easy to believe it can comfortably do so.
As for using one old locking bolt together with the new bolts I definitely would not do that as a wide sector of the assembly would be significantly under loaded compared to the rest. Probably most importantly you lose quite a bit of the clamping and you have one prime candidate to relax and fall out. I have near zero faith in the anti theft security of these bolts anyway as a pre planning thief can remove them easily. Unfortunately your insurers might take a differing view if you had a security system that required locking bolts and you tried to claim.
John
PS: I note you did the sound thing.
My observation would be that where a different types of bolts are used for a common purpose such as on a wheel hub where the effect of uneven tightening could cause problems, it is unwise to mix them.
However if you were to mix them ( and I don't condone it), then I would fit the bolts requiring the highest torque first, as this will clamp the assembly the most, and then fit the lower torque locking bolt
My reasoning is if the lower torque bolt was already fitted before the higher torque bolts, as the higher torque bolts are tightened, they will pull the assembly together further which might reduce the tension in the first bolt.
In all cases though its good practice to torque on all the bolts in order twice before leaving the job
However if you were to mix them ( and I don't condone it), then I would fit the bolts requiring the highest torque first, as this will clamp the assembly the most, and then fit the lower torque locking bolt
My reasoning is if the lower torque bolt was already fitted before the higher torque bolts, as the higher torque bolts are tightened, they will pull the assembly together further which might reduce the tension in the first bolt.
In all cases though its good practice to torque on all the bolts in order twice before leaving the job
Thanks JTQ and Prof
Prof you said
"In all cases though its good practice to torque on all the bolts in order twice before leaving the job"
I did that so its good to know I did it right
Prof you said
"In all cases though its good practice to torque on all the bolts in order twice before leaving the job"
I did that so its good to know I did it right
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