Newbie, Hello and help needed please!

[kgb26]

Hello everyone,thanks for adding me, wonder if anyone here can help us? We are so confused.
We currently have an ancient (1991) old Abbey that we use as a spare bedroom and just tow to festivals, she is housed in our lockup the rest of the time. I have spent a lot of money on keeping her going, and she is in good condition inside, but she is now coming to the end of her days. We want to buy a grown up Caravan that we can use properly for touring.
This is where our problem starts, not ends. It's a minefield! We have an unspecified budget, we have looked and will look at anything from £4,000 to £18,000, it is more important that the van works for us, than age or price, but obviously we always have a bargain in mind. We have 2 children aged 13 and 10, and 3 small dogs, 2 Cavs and a Chihuahua. We gaily set out going to look at vans and then got mired in weight limits and now we are totally depressed. Our Abbey is a tad under 1000kg, and my post 1997 licence holding partner can legally tow it. Fine we thought, he can do his test, not a problem. Then we ran into the problem of our old but very beloved car (yes we tend to hang on to things we like!) . It is an Audi A4 Avant Estate Quattro 3L, plenty of grunt for towing, but it's this kerb weight thing. According to the plate under the bonnet, It has a kerb weight of 1450kg, a towing capacity of 1800kg, a GTW of of 4055kg, and a gross vehicle weight of 2210kg. Then my next door neighbour who is an ex copper told us we could only safely tow 85% of the kerb weight, which leaves us basically only able to tow a 2 berth with this car. Surely it can't be right? Or do we need to look at getting a new car if we want a 4-6 berth to accommodate us all? So confused, would be very grateful for any light anyone could shed on this, I really don't want to have to buy a new car if we don't have to.

 

[otherclive]

Hello everyone,thanks for adding me, wonder if anyone here can help us? We are so confused.
We currently have an ancient (1991) old Abbey that we use as a spare bedroom and just tow to festivals, she is housed in our lockup the rest of the time. I have spent a lot of money on keeping her going, and she is in good condition inside, but she is now coming to the end of her days. We want to buy a grown up Caravan that we can use properly for touring.
This is where our problem starts, not ends. It's a minefield! We have an unspecified budget, we have looked and will look at anything from £4,000 to £18,000, it is more important that the van works for us, than age or price, but obviously we always have a bargain in mind. We have 2 children aged 13 and 10, and 3 small dogs, 2 Cavs and a Chihuahua. We gaily set out going to look at vans and then got mired in weight limits and now we are totally depressed. Our Abbey is a tad under 1000kg, and my post 1997 licence holding partner can legally tow it. Fine we thought, he can do his test, not a problem. Then we ran into the problem of our old but very beloved car (yes we tend to hang on to things we like!) . It is an Audi A4 Avant Estate Quattro 3L, plenty of grunt for towing, but it's this kerb weight thing. According to the plate under the bonnet, It has a kerb weight of 1450kg, a towing capacity of 1800kg, a GTW of of 4055kg, and a gross vehicle weight of 2210kg. Then my next door neighbour who is an ex copper told us we could only safely tow 85% of the kerb weight, which leaves us basically only able to tow a 2 berth with this car. Surely it can't be right? Or do we need to look at getting a new car if we want a 4-6 berth to accommodate us all? So confused, would be very grateful for any light anyone could shed on this, I really don't want to have to buy a new car if we don't have to.

Your policeman friend isn't quite correct. the 85% of kerb weight is a guide only and is useful for first timers but can be higher for experienced tow drivers. Most advise isn't to exceed 100% of the kerb weight even if the cars specification is higher. Caravans are totally different from say a car trailer and the cars limit really reflects its ability to do repeated ills starts on a defined incline, not towing on a windy M6. For a post 1997 licence there is quite a restriction on the outfit weights. The sum of the cars Gross Vehicle Weight and caravan MTPLM must not exceed 3500kg. this is the sum of the two specified weights not what is actually carried. So you cannot have an empty car and unloaded caravan to get around this figure. If your cars GVW is 2210kg then with a post 1997 licence the driver is limited to a caravan MTPLM of 1290kg. There are caravans around with that MTPLM that could be suitable once you decide on your needs. Mine a 2013 6.5 meter 5 berth Musketter came in at 1260kg MTPLM prior to its weight upgrade.

Your cars kerb weight isn't a million miles away from the 85% guide and other things will affect overall stability of the outfit such as cars suspension, cars load, how caravan is loaded and driver skill/care too. So in my experience the Audi would be a suitable tow car especially as you have prior experience towing a caravan.

It wold be useful just to visit lots of dealers to see what you like and what the weights are. Good luck

 

[kgb26]

Thanks so much for your reply, I have a pre 97 license, but won't tow, and my partner will do his test. It's the weight the car can tow which is more of a worry.

 

[otherclive]

Thanks so much for your reply, I have a pre 97 license, but won't tow, and my partner will do his test. It's the weight the car can tow which is more of a worry.

That engine will tow anything, but its the overall safety and stability of the outfit that governs the suitability. 100% of kerb weight would be the limit, but not knowing the cars characteristics I would try and contact other owners who may tow caravans. Try Audi owner club, or CMHC/C&CC forums there may be owners there who have experience.

PS Edit from my above post:
Most advice isn't to exceed 100% of the kerb weight even if the cars specification is higher. Caravans are totally different from say a car trailer and the cars limit really reflects its ability to do repeated hill starts on a defined incline, not towing on a windy M6.

 

[Craigyoung]

I think you have a decent beast off a tow car with more than enough power and weight to pull the caravan and with the budget that you have you should pick up something decent to accommodate you all but like Clive says it is only a guidance the 85% , if you already have experience you should be ok but get yourself down a few yards and caravan dealers to have a look at what weights are on the caravans and what you could get for your money and get your other half to passes his B+e test ASAP !! The van that we have was just shy of 18 k and that was brand new so you've got quite a few to choose from with a budget like yours .

Good luck .

 

[ProfJohnL]

Otherclive has given you the information you need about the combined MAM (GVW + MTPLM) not exceeding 3500kg. The car you have has a fine pedigree and will probably mange a 1200kg MTPLM caravan perfectly well, especially as you already have some towing experience.

I wouldn't change anything that's been suggested already, but I would add that a post 1997 licence holder can drive a outfit exceeding the the combined MAM of 3500 as a provisional driver under instruction, provided they are accompanied by a driver that holds the BE licence and has done so for at least 3 years.

The vehicle would have to show "L" plates, and the supervising driver must not be intoxicated or under the influence of drugs (and I'm not suggesting you would be).

This approach will allow the provisional driver to practice in preparation for the B+E test. I would recommend that the driver does seek at least some professional training, as the test covers a bit more than just towing.

 

[kgb26]

Really helpful, love your dogs by the way.

 

[kgb26]

That's fantastic, so as a pre 1997 driver with that entitlement I could 'supervise' him, that'll give him a laugh! I think we could manage up to a 1300kg max van, which would give us so much more choice, it is over the 85%, but still well under the 100% of the kerb weight which 1450kg. Bizarrely, we just checked our 1919 Ford transit Custom LWB works van weight, thinking we could potentially use that to tow and it is the same kerb weight as the car!

 

[Craigyoung]

.....I wouldn't change anything that's been suggested already, but I would add that a post 1997 licence holder can drive a outfit exceeding the the combined MAM of 3500 as a provisional driver under instruction, provided they are accompanied by a driver that holds the BE licence and has done so for at least 3 years.

The vehicle would have to show "L" plates, and the supervising driver must not be intoxicated or under the influence of drugs (and I'm not suggesting you would be).

This approach will allow the provisional driver to practice in preparation for the B+E test. I would recommend that the driver does seek at least some professional training, as the test covers a bit more than just towing....

Cheers Prof , I forgot all about that ruling as come November I'll have passed my HGV 3 years ago so that means my wife could actually drive our unit under my supervision with L plates on if that's right , giving me a break and giving her a turn hmy: , I'd be on edge in passenger seat though !!

 

[otherclive]

That's fantastic, so as a pre 1997 driver with that entitlement I could 'supervise' him, that'll give him a laugh! I think we could manage up to a 1300kg max van, which would give us so much more choice, it is over the 85%, but still well under the 100% of the kerb weight which 1450kg. Bizarrely, we just checked our 1919 Ford transit Custom LWB works van weight, thinking we could potentially use that to tow and it is the same kerb weight as the car!

Good luck in finding a van. if you are still searching by 20 September you could ask Parksy the moderator for my email address

 

[Raywood]

I note the Prof,s advice but I think you will struggle to find a four berth with an MTPLM of 1200 kg or less. There are a couple of older models that fit, but they are very rare.
If the car has a maximum gross weight of 2150 kg you can go up to 1350 kg without exceeding your partners licence limit, and you would find a few more caravans she can tow at that level, and it would still be well below the kerb weight of the car.
I see you do have the entitlement to drive with a maximum weight over 3,500 kg, but do not want to. Frankly if you can drive an HGV, a car and caravan should be no problem. Towing is not that difficult, and personally I think you should try a short drive with the caravan on the back and see if you can conquer your nerves which would solve a lot of your problems and give you two drivers when on the road which is very useful.

 

[kgb26]

Well, our world just got a little bit less restricted. Found the V5 for the Audi and I notice that the 'Mass in Service' weight is 1846 kg, which I am lead to believe is the European expression of kerbweight (being a German car) the EU guidelines apparantly include 75kg for the driver, which if I deduct that gives a UK kerb weight of 1771kg, which tallies with the spec of the Audi on-line, and not with the lower figure given by UK tow. This means we can look at caravans up to 1505 kg and our dream of a 6 berther for the crew is now far more realistic. Told my OH that i am booking his towing test, and now our hunt for a decent van can really start in earnest. Very exciting.........unless of course anyone begs to differ with my maths?

 

[otherclive]

Well, our world just got a little bit less restricted. Found the V5 for the Audi and I notice that the 'Mass in Service' weight is 1846 kg, which I am lead to believe is the European expression of kerbweight (being a German car) the EU guidelines apparantly include 75kg for the driver, which if I deduct that gives a UK kerb weight of 1771kg, which tallies with the spec of the Audi on-line, and not with the lower figure given by UK tow. This means we can look at caravans up to 1505 kg and our dream of a 6 berther for the crew is now far more realistic. Told my OH that i am booking his towing test, and now our hunt for a decent van can really start in earnest. Very exciting.........unless of course anyone begs to differ with my maths?

Good news and happy hunting

 

[Craigyoung]

As above , happy shopping .

 

[ProfJohnL]

Well, our world just got a little bit less restricted. Found the V5 for the Audi and I notice that the 'Mass in Service' weight is 1846 kg, which I am lead to believe is the European expression of kerbweight (being a German car) the EU guidelines apparantly include 75kg for the driver, which if I deduct that gives a UK kerb weight of 1771kg, which tallies with the spec of the Audi on-line, and not with the lower figure given by UK tow. This means we can look at caravans up to 1505 kg and our dream of a 6 berther for the crew is now far more realistic. Told my OH that i am booking his towing test, and now our hunt for a decent van can really start in earnest. Very exciting.........unless of course anyone begs to differ with my maths?

Good news and happy hunting

That seems like a plan though I must suggest booking the test should really only be done after some all the test criteria are known and the candidate has at least had some professional training to cover them all.

Good luck

 

[Dustydog]

.....I wouldn't change anything that's been suggested already, but I would add that a post 1997 licence holder can drive a outfit exceeding the the combined MAM of 3500 as a provisional driver under instruction, provided they are accompanied by a driver that holds the BE licence and has done so for at least 3 years.

The vehicle would have to show "L" plates, and the supervising driver must not be intoxicated or under the influence of drugs (and I'm not suggesting you would be).

This approach will allow the provisional driver to practice in preparation for the B+E test. I would recommend that the driver does seek at least some professional training, as the test covers a bit more than just towing....

Cheers Prof , I forgot all about that ruling as come November I'll have passed my HGV 3 years ago so that means my wife could actually drive our unit under my supervision with L plates on if that's right , giving me a break and giving her a turn hmy: , I'd be on edge in passenger seat though !!

If you see this on a caravan it will be Craig’s

 

[Craigyoung]

Ha ha class , in November !!

 

[kgb26]

Yes, he is being sent to do it Ha ha! I may just do some training without the test as a refresher, in case I have to tow in an emergency.

 

[Raywood]

The towing code which suggests the 85% figure, does include 75 kg for the driver if that helps.