Newbie weight question...

[Rtrainers]

hi all,

prospective new caravanner here, stumbling over towing weights, MTPLM and so on.

Hoping some kind members could help me check about MTPLM of a possible new van.

We have spent the weekend trawling through a caravan sales place and found an ideal caravan for our needs. Although we are a family of 4 we have found a 6 berth caravan as need to consider family visits to our house. My Skoda Octavia has a tow weigh of 1400kg (max weight of 2010kg).

The caravan we saw has a MIRO of 1217 kg but a MTPLM of 1435kg. At first glance this means the caravan would be 35kg too heavy (despite the dealer saying we were fine (he gave us a lovely print out to prove it but on closer inspection it was the wrong Skoda!)). However, the Personal effects payload states there is 173kg of allowance (the other 4 berth caravans state 150kg).

I was wondering if the 173kg takes into account 6 people travelling when if we were to tour it would just be a family of 4 (2 children under 12) - the other 2 would be bringin their own bedding/clothes etc - I would expect that by being careful, the four of us could keep our laden weight below 1400kg. Obviously before we buy the van we can't check the laden weights so was hoping for some experienced members giving me some ideas - even a definite no would clear up some ambiguities.

I realise that the likelihood is that we will spend another weekend revisiting another set of caravan sales locations for a different van!
Sorry, long post -first one ever!

 

[simon_374531619]

Use whattowcar or one of the major clubs for the definitive answer but on the face of it your match doesn't add up.

 

[Tukums]

I have a Skoda Octavia Estate 2.0TDi 4x4 with a kerbweight of 1,495kg, your Octavia could be around 100kg lighter. My caravan mtplm is 1,318kg giving me a tow ratio of 88%. Mine has a tow limit of 1,600kg and no way would I tow that weight. Your tow ratio will be well over 100%, sorry you need a lighter caravan to be safe. The Octavia noseweight is only 75kg, with my caravan it is no problem, something else to consider.

Have a read of the following:

http://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/helpandadvice/gettingstarted/newtocaravans/whatcanitow/http://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/helpandadvice/gettingstarted/newtocaravans/whatcanitow/

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

What does your car's V5 certificate give for your actual Mass in Running Order (ie good approx to kerb weight)? A quick scan on Google gives up to 1475kg.

Forget MIRO for the van and concentrate on MTPLM. The recommendation for a person new to towing is that the van's MTPLM should not exceed 85% of car's kerb weight. In your case if 1475 is correct then MTPLM should be no more than 1254 kg, a lot less than you were wanting. The max tow weight is for an 'ideal' trailer (low sides and low c of g) that can be towed away from a standing start on a hill of specified gradient.

 

[Hutch]

Welcome to the forum. On your cars data plate you will,find several different numbers . In the cars data plate first number is the maximum weight your car can be , the second number is the maximum your train weight can be, Ie car plus caravan / trailer. You could tow a very light car with the heavy caravan , but not more than the max train weight of the car. BUT this is not normal, .,Think heavy car heavy caravan. Car full of passengers and dogs awning and Maybe Wine for boss and lemonade forthe kids. You cannot fill the caravan full. Your licence only only aĺlows you to tow the max weight of your car and the max weight of your van. If your license is only B this only allows you to tow 3500 kg , that is also a limit. Above this its B+E

 

[thosoneill]

What does your car's V5 certificate give for your actual Mass in Running Order (ie good approx to kerb weight)?

Out of curiosity I'm checking the v5 for my golf 1.6 tdi match edition - I can see no mention of mass-in-running-order in the v5 - F.1 states Max.permissable mass - G states Mass in service - confused

 

[ProfJohnL]

What does your car's V5 certificate give for your actual Mass in Running Order (ie good approx to kerb weight)?

Out of curiosity I'm checking the v5 for my golf 1.6 tdi match edition - I can see no mention of mass-in-running-order in the v5 - F.1 states Max.permissable mass - G states Mass in service - confused

Mass in service is the = to MIRO . This is not quite the same as Kerbweight but it more likely closer to the practical minimum running weight of any vehicle.

 

[chrisn7]

Driving licence: Add the gross allowable weight of your car specified by your towcar maker to the MTPLM of the van. The threshold is 3500Kg - below is B, above is B+E. There is no leeway on this - ensuring either the car or van is lighter is not a way round the limit.

Gross train weight: This is the maximum combined weight of car and van as allowed by the car maker, and is a physical limit. This could be well above the 3500 Kg threshold.

Therefore both of these need to be considered together.

Matching: Its perfectly possible to tow with a vans MTPLM at 100% of the cars kerbweight, indeed theoretically up to the maximum braked trailer weight stated by the car maker (keeping in mind the limits above). However, this potentially poses stability problems in high winds, being affected by the wash from HGVs and coaches, and greater difficulty in controlling snaking. This is the reason for the suggested MTPLM of the van not exceeding 85% of the cars kerbweight.

Data plate: the data plate mentioned by Hutch plate should also specify the individual maximum axle loads of your car. The rear axle load has to be considered, as the noseweight of the van is taken to be a part of the load on that axle. This is significant because you can't just fill the boot with heavy stuff in an effort to keep the van within its MTPLM .

 

[LizziePope]

Hi – and welcome to the Practical Caravan forum! Thanks for posting.

We've published some articles that might help? Please see here, here and these videos. I hope that helps.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Use whattowcar or one of the major clubs for the definitive answer but on the face of it your match doesn't add up.

Hello Simon,

Unfortunately none of the matching services can give a answer you can trust. All the databases they use contain errors and the problem is you don't know if the data they use for your outfit is right or wrong.

Ultimately it is up to the driver of the outfit to ensure they are legal, and the way to do that is quite easy just be checking the specification and data plates of the vehicles and some simple maths

 

[Raywood]

Frankly I think the caravan will be too heavy for the car because it will not be heavy enough for it to tow safely for someone new to caravans. The recommendation is the caravan should not weigh more than 85% of the cars kerb weight and I cannot see you getting anywhere near that. It is permissable to go a lityle over it and the Skoda has a good reputation as a safe tow car but you have to recognise its limitations.
The makers alowance for the load in a caravan varies and different people take different amounts so it is difficult to say if you can manage with that allowance. If you need a six berth I think there will be very few you can get if any that will have an MTPLM low enough for the 85% figure and a bigger car migbt be needed.

 

[Rtrainers]

Thanks for all the responses, it's great to know there's so much support out there. The mixed response from the databases is causing the problem and we will ultimately err on the side of caution but my vin plate shows the following numbers
2010 kg
3410 kg
1- 1050 kg
2- 1010 kg
I believe the first number is the max weight my car can carry and I should carry a caravian below that? Just looking for suggestions and ideas. Thanks once again in advance.
Never mind I have now worked out kerb weight is not gross weight !!!!!! Problem solved

 

[ProfJohnL]

Thanks for all the responses, it's great to know there's so much support out there. The mixed response from the databases is causing the problem and we will ultimately err on the side of caution but my vin plate shows the following numbers
2010 kg
3410 kg
1- 1050 kg
2- 1010 kg
I believe the first number is the max weight my car can carry and I should carry a caravian below that? Just looking for suggestions and ideas. Thanks once again in advance.
Never mind I have now worked out kerb weight is not gross weight !!!!!! Problem solved

Hello Rtrainers,

You haven't expressed the workings of the vin plate accurately: All the figures on the VIN plate are maximum limits or capacities, and under no circumstances should you exceed any of them at any time.

The first figure is the solo vehicles Maximum permitted mass/weight and is its GVM or GVW
The second figure is the maximum permitted combined mass of the tow vehicle and trailer when coupled and its GTM or GTW
The third and fourth figures are the maximum permitted loads on the front and rear axles respectively. Each of these figure are absolute maximums and must never be exceeded by any combination.

However what this allows you to do is to work out your maximum permitted towed mass by subtracting No1(GVM) from No2(GTM) which defines the maximum load carried by the trailers axle. In your case that is 3410-2010 = 1400kg

For legal simplicity if you select a caravan whose MTPLM (maximum permitted total weight) does not exceed the tow vehicles towed load limit, then you will be legal. There is some scope to increase that a little by taking into account the nose load, but that is more complex, and its easy to get it wrong and become illegal.

That is the legal bit but it is based on ideal trailers, and caravans are far from ideal, in fact they are about as far from ideal as you can get, so as a consequence the UK caravan industry suggest you should try to keep the weight of a caravan as small as possible compared to the unladen weight of the of the tow vehicle, and the suggest for a total beginner to aim for no more than caravan's weight not to exceed 85% of the cars kerbweight.

On that basis you need to find teh cars kerbweight or MIS figure x by 0.85 to find the largest MTPLM you should be looking for.

None of the above offers any kind of guarantees about safety, but its a good starting point.

 

[Raywood]

Just a point on this and the kerb weight. The calculation varies between manufacturers and I am not sure if the Skoda figure includes the driver or not. If you find it does not the drivers allowance of 75 kg can be added before you do the 85% calculation.