News Spin

[Lutz]

Diesel costs more to produce than petrol. Therefore, if one is complaining specifically about the cost of diesel rather than petrol being too high, then this can only be brought down artificially by lower taxation on diesel than on petrol, as it is in some other countries.

 

[Zafiral]

Lutz

I thought it was that the ratio to diesel to petrol useage has changed to the level that Europe cannot refine enough diesel to meet demand. Diesel is in some cases imported refined. Supply / demand is the driving force here, not the actual cost of refining diesel, more the cost you can get away with charging for refined diesel.

 

[ShadySadie]

As a caravanner I just know that I have receipts for diesel from a few countries this year and by far the highest price is the UK.

As a business owner and user of diesel the UK price is killing business and fueling inflation.

Be it the food on your table or an elderly persons heating oil it is delivered using very expensive diesel. The end market price to the consumer is the result of the UK tax system. Countries such as Brazil have held prices of fuel under control for years at a time. Our goverment takes no account of the extra tax its gained with price hikes.

Bringing the UK price of Diesel more in line with petrol and more inline with an average of what other countries pay would help everybodies pockets here.

The UK needs to spend it Tax's more wisely and stop wasting them rather than perpetuate the idea that if you don't take here you take it from somewhere else.

Our business has to balance it books, be efficient, spend wisely and the money would not cover waifs, strays or freeloaders or directives from people in other countries that don't fit.

UK PLC and its government should be run in the same way, UK politicians are just not accountable enough to the tax payer and voters. UK is still one of the most highly taxed nations and that is never taken in to account, if other countries can run so can we.

 

[Zafiral]

Sadie

In other European countries diesel is effectively subsidised because the tax is lower. Even in these countries the gap is closing.

Please tell me you are not really trying to use Brazil as an economic model!!!

I agree that UK PLC is very wastful with the money it has, but the point I was saying is that this won't change, all that will change is where the money comes from. If they lower fuel tax then income tax will be increased.

Granted France has lower fuel taxes, but they have higher income tax, but as a tourist you don't notice that.

 

[ShadySadie]

I guess that I've visited most European countries and plenty of others.

Visiting some of our EU neighbours, I find they pay less for the fuel and their running costs are less. I've had my car serviced in France and paid far less than in UK. I had a door mirror smashed in Italy two years ago and that was far cheaper to repair than UK.

Then you find thay can pay less for wine and alcohol and ciggies ( I've never smoked ) equivalent of council tax's is a fraction of what we pay. People we know who have moved abroad seem to do so as they are better off tax and cost of living wise. I'm still tryig to work out if the Great in GB refers to the great ammount we pay to the treasury.

As a non smoker I've listened to all the smoking and tax arguments and about the cost to the NHS and days lost for employers.

Can someone then please explain how the French and Belgium and others seem to manage.

I like my home and business and my husbands career is here, but I've had it up to the top with spiralling costs and tax's and don't go with this if they don't take it from here the'll take it from somewhere else.

It seems some German's have got upset about Switzerland and Tax dodging, rather than moan about the Swiss. Maybe they should look at changing their own tax system and house keeping as should the UK.

 

[Lutz]

Because of the trend towards diesel cars, demand has outstripped supply. Therefore the price from the producer has increased, whether it be a case of market supply/demand reaction or a case of having to find other, usually more costly sources, such as importing from elsewhere. Civical is correct that some countries effectively subsidise diesel with lower tax, thus offsetting the higher price from the oil companies. Here in Germany it is subsidised by higher vehicle tax for diesel cars, making diesel only economical if your annual mileage is significantly more than the average motorist.

Lower costs of repair abroad that Shady Sadie is referring to, is hardly an issue that any government has any control over, but much more a case of lower hourly rates. Tax on alcohol and tobacco, on the other hand, is directly controlled by government.

By the way, Germans are not complaining about the tax system in Switzerland (the cases in question were primarily Lichtenstein, not Switzerland). The issue was that Germans are taking their money abroad (nothing basically wrong with that), but they are then not declaring interest on those accounts in their tax returns although they are obliged to do so. What upsets the German government is that countries like Lichtenstein refuse to co-operate with the Inland Revenue by naming the offenders, so that no action can be taken against tax dodgers. It's not a case of lower taxes in those countries, but tax avoidance altogether without being able to get caught.

 

[ShadySadie]

Well may be I was not reading clearly

"Thursday, 23 October 2008

The Swiss government has reacted angrily to suggestions by the German finance minister that Switzerland ought to be put on a blacklist of tax havens.

The Swiss foreign minister has summoned Germany's ambassador to Bern to explain his government's stance."

- - - -

Who suggested that Government controls servicing costs? Overall motoring costs are based on wages, cost of premises and business tax's etc. They are influenced by a countries economy and government surely.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi all.

I have been offline for most of the week so I have missed most of this thread however after reading the posts so far it seems to me that some obvious facts have been forgotten.

fact one. the fuel tax has been frozen for the last 3 years and before that the then chancellor mr G brown reduced it by 3p a litre (no post war chancellor had ever reduced it before this) so the tax on fuel is the same as it was 4 years ago, can anyone remember the price of diesel 4 years ago what was it??.80/85p a litre, and what was the price of a barrel of crude 4 years ago??50/60 dollars a barrel. the present price of oil I think the last time I looked was about $85 a barrel, 50% more than it was 4 years ago, but diesel is not 50% dearer, "it was @

 

[ShadySadie]

Lets deal with Colin's Mr Brown fuel tax action. Current fuel tax ammount is related back to fuel tax escalator that the economy could not handle. Brown and follow on have not been generous they have been getting extra tax's from out of control price hikes.

Barrel of crude is 42 US gallons and produces 44.47 approx of products, that a "Processing Gain of 2.47 Gallons". So One litre not making one litre is not quite correct.

With Crude @ $95 UK diesel price should be about

 

[colin-yorkshire]

thank you for your comments sadie as they rather go to prove my point I think, lets do some sums shall we :- ( bear with me a bit as according to LB sums are not my strong point!!!!).

diesel locally is 10p dearer than petrol or about 10% the fuel savings on diesel engines of the same size is about 10% so the cost per mile is about the same, if the chancellor reduced the tax on diesel by 10p making it the same price as petrol the new savings on diesel would be 10%, great!! but then the demand for diesel engined cars would increase so would demand for more diesel fuel, this means "yep" the price of diesel would rise again "noticed how the cost of LPG has risen as more cars are converted to run on it" cancelling out the tax cut at the same time the lost revenue from the lower tax would have to be raised somewhere else.

you said "Motoring costs of 40 years ago have little to do with today. Sorry but I don't agree if as you say "47 years ago my father owned the only car in a street of 120 plus houses and my grandfather had the only home with garage and car in a road with 250 houses and only 3 or 4 other cars. In 1968 there were still only about 25% of the homes where we lived then with 1 car, now I have neigbours with 5-7 cars per household" this proves that today owning and running a car is much cheaper than it was so why all the belly aching about the cost of fuel!!.

so the price of diesel is such a important part of our economy but why is this!! it comes down to the wrong direction in transport policy of the two gentelmen I mentioned earlier, one cut the rail network and use of the waterways forcing goods to be transported by roads that the other one was building as a road contractor while being the minister in charge of transport how cool was that!! I will tell you this sadie if 50% of the goods now transported by road was going by other means we would be in a far better situation.

colin

 

[ShadySadie]

Bleeting about what Beeching did is a bit late, the railways are not there and trucks are and we have to deal with the transport infrastructure that is in use today. Goods still have to get from A2B and many do, with trains it's more like A2D via B&C as they have to get from A the produce to a station and destination station to Destination. Not such an easy comparison and costly handling 4 time instead of 2.

As trends turned towards diesel so would production. I saw a post from Lutz saying that the massive world renowned centre of productivity, manufacturing and economic leadership Luxembourg he paid 82p a litre for unleaded this week. I've always known Diesel to be cheaper in Luxembourg from memory, I paid

 

[Guest]

Are you going on business sadie? do you import the nuts and cover them with chocolate?

 

[ShadySadie]

le croc.

Well I am a multiple recipient of the CDM for my services to children, my own

Last GP of the season and hubby and I then go on Holiday.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

sadie,

It seems you have the wrong end of the stick again (not for the first time) show me where I have stated that I wanted quote "If you want fuel and car prices back at the same rate as the old days Colin you are a bigger dreamer than Brown". just the opposite sadie I am quite happy with the cost of motoring as it is today (including the price of diesel), personnaly I could not give a toss what the stuff cost in germany luxembourg or even outer mongolia. The comparison I used was to show how much cheaper it is today to run a car than it was when I was a 20yo if you want a true comparion at the old rates, a new car an (average one like an astra) would cost around 20grand it would cost

 

[ShadySadie]

Sorry Colin, nothing personal but I think you are a bit of a dreamer in the nicest of ways of course

You say you are happy with fuel cost as it is cheaper by comparison to the days of our youth. Cars are also cheaper as are many other things, so I take it that you would be happy to pay pro rata rates for everything compard to 40 years ago.

I don't claim VAT back for my private mileage either, I pay the same as others.

And for company car use business users do not claim all the VAT back either, they pay the standing charge tax for the type of car before they can get anything back. The VAT has to be paid at the service station and then claimed back on the three monthly return. So ur money is still being used.

UK fuel is to expensive, end of story!

What happend 40 years ago has nothing to do with todays world!

It no good talking about train services that do not exist either!

By the way Lewis did not throw Last years championship away, the team messed it up and you can't stop a car on canvas you need rubber that he did not have in China. Personally I don't think Lewis will be allowed to win the championship either next week, the FIA have done everything they can this season to orevent it so I expect to see something go wrong or somone put him off. But we'll have a great end of season party any way!

Sorry to the Mods, but I never considered being a dreamer was offensive or insulting. I think it's quite sweet!

 

[Parksy]

sadie,

It seems you have the wrong end of the stick again (not for the first time) show me where I have stated that I wanted quote "If you want fuel and car prices back at the same rate as the old days Colin you are a bigger dreamer than Brown". just the opposite sadie I am quite happy with the cost of motoring as it is today (including the price of diesel), personnaly I could not give a toss what the stuff cost in germany luxembourg or even outer mongolia. The comparison I used was to show how much cheaper it is today to run a car than it was when I was a 20yo if you want a true comparion at the old rates, a new car an (average one like an astra) would cost around 20grand it would cost

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi sadie

just a couple of points I would like to mention before you go swanning off to brazil "in the nicest of ways possible of course. "smiley thing and all that O:,

this is an open forum that anyone can access including the VAT man so I will accept your statment:- "I don't claim VAT back for my private mileage either, I pay the same as others." in the spirit that it was taken, nudge,nudge wink,wink, elbow,elbow,say no more, but it is a well know fact that vehicles used for business use are less economical than the ones used privatly."honestly"

"What happend 40 years ago has nothing to do with todays world!

It no good talking about train services that do not exist either!" No-one can deny that this country's transport policy is a mess it is caotic, unstructured, and ill regulated thats the price of privatisation unless lessons are learned from past mistakes, rectification is impossible. Just accepting things the way there are "the do nothing about it approach" will only serve to prepetuate the problems.

"You say you are happy with fuel cost as it is cheaper by comparison to the days of our youth. Cars are also cheaper as are many other things, so I take it that you would be happy to pay pro rata rates for everything compard to 40 years ago."

by enlage yes I would I think that is realistic in today consumer world, if treated "like for like" even an ex miner living in a ex pithouse, in an ex pit village, can afford consumer goods that were impossible 40 years ago. Other things like the notebook I am typing on that can accept satellite tv to watch, just weren't invented then "were they"

and finally what has the statement:- ""As well as Sums it seems you may not be to smart at some other things as well. Unlike LB, as a Lady I'm too polite to say ;-)"". got to do with being a dreamer.

colin

 

[ShadySadie]

Sorry that I missed the end of your previous post Colin, I didn't scroll past your name!

Kabul for a holiday? I only holiday in 'inclusive' societies not backward Muslim societies where women are treated as second class goods!

If your nephew and his friends in Kabuk and Iraq were not playing and enjoying themselves so much we would probably have lower tax's. So I hope they all come home safe and well soon

If we went back to the days of our youth many things that have been invented in the past 40 years would more than likley be out of reach price wise if nothing had changed. I like todays gadgets and modern day living and I'm not prepared to go backwards.

Very many women were housewives and waited for the man of the house to drive them if they had a car. There is no way I could live like that. Little lady at home pushing a vac and duster and ironiing shirts NO way

Havinng had a run in with a VAT inspector who suggested that my business mileage was un realistic years ago, we proved her wrong and I've mainly use one of my company cars for business ever since. Any business mileage in my private cars is dated and logged, what others do in business is up to them and you should not tar everybody with the same brush. VAT keeps two staff very busy as well as our accountants, if we could do away with claiming back VAT it would save a lot on the accounting bill as well.

Not only do we pay out and then claim back, but we are unpaid TAX collectors for the revenue as well. If only that was tax deductable we could be laughing!

Still no answer as to why diesel costs are rarely mentioned ;-)

 

[Guest]

and finally what has the statement:- ""As well as Sums it seems you may not be to smart at some other things as well. Unlike LB, as a Lady I'm too polite to say ;-)"". got to do with being a dreamer.

Come on sadie, fess up, where all waiting anxiously at our PC's tapping our fingers.

 

[ShadySadie]

It's a ladies perogative to keep a gentleman waiting and guessing.

Assuming you are gentlemen you will not mind waiting three weeks until I return.

May be you can fill your time finding out why diesel prices are rarely mentioned in news reports and be saved from playing games. Your wives or partners must have loads of little jobs that you should be doing and never get time for whilst your fingers are tapping.

So run along now and keep busy

 

[g_374369443]

http://www.aaroadwatch.ie/eupetrolprices/
Sadie. with respect.

I don't know, fancy forgetting little old Belgium, which has higher diesel prices than either the UK or Norway.

Indeed the timing of this thread is somewhat ill conceived, what with the Euro being so strong,and the gap between major countries diesel prices being pretty close because of it.

The debate concerning the mythical foreign haulage companies having an advantage over the UK industry,is one of gross hype and propaganda.In truth the vast majority of ones competitors is homebased,and has always been so.

Indeed only a few years back the government slashed road tax prices on HGV vehicle, so that many cars pay more in road tax than vehicles up to 14 tonnes.Which I believe in some cases means our road tax is 7 or 8 times cheaper than the so called mythical competitors from over the waters.

Lets not even talk about insurance, where again we have the advantage there too!

And please do not forget we pay less in income tax that most of the EU major players too.

So whilst booze, diesel, the odd meal out may well be cheaper than here in the UK, their wage packets on the whole are smaller too.

So If you want diesel prices to be the same as our competitors,you really want to ask the general public if they want a 2p hike in income tax, or a 15% pay cut.

Had we joined the Euro at the agreed 1.5 euro's to the pound then we would have amongst the cheapest fuel of our competitors,as fuel would be 20% cheaper.

so really you are comparing apples to pears.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi all

le croc your fingers will be quite a bit shorter from all that tapping while you wait for anything like an appology, personnally I won't hold my breath waiting for one, or for the mods to do anything about it as they are hiding behind the sofa untill it all quietens down. after all it is a laddies perogative to say what they like and as long as you don't respond in kind it is not seen as trading insults.

it is fine to have a "in joke" with a regular sparring parner where no ill feeling is intented or taken, however that is a far cry from a third party using the "joke" to make derogatory remarks about another contributor that are not intended to be the least bit funny but a serious comment of there ability.

I love a bit of banter in a thread it makes the posts interesting as long as it is double ended and with a little panache thown in thats ok by me.

we will have to wait while "her majesty" returnes in three weeks to see what part of the "joke" she did not get, by this time events will have moved on and this tread will have gone down off the current's list, perhaps that was the intention of not responding all a long.

right back to diesel prices "g" makes a valid point about treating like for like when compering prices across europe so did lutz earlier when he spoke of the subsidy of diesel in germany going on holiday to europe and compering the price difference at the pump without considering the added costs incured to the local population that you do not have to pay is to me nonsensical and so by the way is the 1 billion pound a month profit of BP, some of which was undoubtably made from keeping the pump price high as the crude price fell.

colin