night heaters.

[seth1]

Hello and happy xmas to everyone.

I,m maybe/pehaps thinking of installing my Ebaspacher D1LC Compact night heater that i prievously installed in our last caravan(Abbey).When we sold the van i removed it but left the baseplate behind.Thats not a problem as their easily made as was the last one out of stainless.

I was thinking of installing it in the front locker,with a 2gallon fuel tank next to it.BUT this will mean cutting a hole in both the bulkhead(3" round),and plywood floor(of the locker).

The van is an Adria,and just 12months of age,would this effect the body warranty?

My only reason for doing this is the heating is useless and the price of gas.

cheers.

 

[SBS]

Seth

I'm guessing that your Adria has a Truma Ultraheat. Why do you say that it is useless?

We have a 2002 Eccles Onyx and it keeps us warm - even in minus 5 or 7.

Mike

 

[Surfer]

If the 3002 is useless why not upgrade to the 5002 or better still, get Gary from Arc Systems to have a look at it. he comes onto this forum from time to time. I am sure he will be able to resolve it.

However doing that sort of modification to a new caravan may or probably will invalidate the warranty but getting insurance for the modification could be a nightmare.

 

[Damian]

There are a couple of serious issues to consider.

First is the fact that if your front locker is also your gas locker, then it would be illegal to install any such item within the locker.

Secondly it will without doubt invalidate any warranty and make selling the van after you have finished with it almost impossible.

I also fail to underdstand why you say the Truma heater is useless, unless you are trying to heat a cold van on just the Ultraheat, or you do not have a remote sensor fitted.

The Ultraheat is primarily a secondary source of heating, the Trumatic fire is primarily designed to run on gas, which is what you should use initially to warm the van with, then switch over to electric to maintain the temperature, with the correct fan speed and temp setting it should be more than adequate for your size of van.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Seth,

I too are wondering why you are considering using a diesel powered heater in a caravan that already has a substantially more powerful gas heater.

The Ebaspacher D1LC is designed to be a lorry cab heater. According to the Ebaspacher web site the D1LC has a maximum heat out put of 7,500 BTU/hr on Boost setting that is the equivalent of 2.17KwHrs. the Truma 3002 series has a gas heat output of 3.2kW.

The D1LC also uses 1.8A on boost which is approx 50% more than the Truma fan system (1.2A), and don't forget that the Truma can use convection only and save 12V power

I also know the Ebaspacher D1LC will be substantially noisier than the Truma when running due to the small diameter fan the unit uses and the speed of its operation.

As for costs - unless you are able to purchase diesel red (no road fuel duty) you will be paying substantially more for your heat units than by using gas.

Longer term issues are that the Ebaspacher D1LC will require a more substantial service than the Truma and probably more frequently due to the inherent difficulties of getting diesel to burn cleanly.

As for fitting in the front locker, It is illegal to fit any source of ignition (electrical contacts etc) or heat within in a gas storage locker, Unless you are removing all gas from the locker. It is also ;likely that you would be considering an under floor flue for the appliance, which may not be suitable or safe for the construction of a typical caravan, not only due to the temperature of the exhaust, but also for the ability of the flue products to disperse safely.

Ebaspacher have been producing excellent heaters for a long time, and they (along with other makes) are widely used in the transport industry where diesel is already carried on the vehicle, and 12V or 24V power is not so limited.

Whilst I realise you already have the Ebaspacher , there are a alternative gas powered units manufactured by Propex, and Truma both produce gas heated blown combustion models.

I can see no sensible logic to your proposal. If the gas heater is not proving sufficient, then I suggest it needs to be checked by gas engineer.

 

[Gafferbill]

Seth.......... you will not get a beter answer than the one above by JohnL..... No he did not pay me to say that!

 

[Northwood]

I sounds although your caravan is not fit for purpose.

If you can find one reference in your hand book for winter use, this proves that the caravan was intended and designed for winter usage.

If you have discovered with use that the caravan cannot create a habitable environment for you your family during the winter, and you have followed the instructions by the manufactures with using the fire installed to heat the interior of the van.

Then we can only assume you have been sold faulty goods.

If you have found that you need to install an addational heating unit, then my advice would be firstly to go to the office of fair trading and make your feeling known I did. Then go out and purchase a small electric heater, do not interfere with the original design of your van, or this will give your dealer / manufacture to oportunity to put the blaim on you washing their hands of the issue.

Take care mate seek advice.

Bob

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Bob,

I fully agree that if the specifications or hand book state or imply a caravan is designed for cold weather usage, then the caravan should perform to lowest temperature stated.

Clearly if it does fail to that then it is breach of contract and all that goes with it under SoGA.

However, in this case a doubt whether the caravan is suffering a design defect, more likely an appliance or installation fault - which are equally breach of contract, but compared to a fundamental design fault they are easily and fully rectifiable.

If the supplier is genuine, then there should be no difficulty in getting the matter resolved. It should not need heavy handed action like threatening actions under SoGA. Such actions may become necessary if the matter is not resolved because the supplier is being difficult.

Adria have been producing caravans for many years for the continental market, where the weather is more extreme than in the UK. So it is unlikely they will be producing a less thermally insulated model for just for the UK market. (I am happy to corrected on this point)

Equally for the caravan to be sold anywhere in the EU, it has now to meet certain minimum standards in a number of respects, one of which is an insulation standard. There are different graduations but even the skinniest should perform down to 0C without a problem.

Seth's problem is most likely either an appliance fault or it may be lack of understanding on how to use the installed appliances to their best advantage.

It does occur to me that there have been some well publicised instances of where a remote thermal sensor for the Truma heater has been installed in a poor position. Repositioning it has made some significant improvements in some caravans.

 

[seth1]

Hello Bob,

I fully agree that if the specifications or hand book state or imply a caravan is designed for cold weather usage, then the caravan should perform to lowest temperature stated.

Clearly if it does fail to that then it is breach of contract and all that goes with it under SoGA.

However, in this case a doubt whether the caravan is suffering a design defect, more likely an appliance or installation fault - which are equally breach of contract, but compared to a fundamental design fault they are easily and fully rectifiable.

If the supplier is genuine, then there should be no difficulty in getting the matter resolved. It should not need heavy handed action like threatening actions under SoGA. Such actions may become necessary if the matter is not resolved because the supplier is being difficult.

Adria have been producing caravans for many years for the continental market, where the weather is more extreme than in the UK. So it is unlikely they will be producing a less thermally insulated model for just for the UK market. (I am happy to corrected on this point)

Equally for the caravan to be sold anywhere in the EU, it has now to meet certain minimum standards in a number of respects, one of which is an insulation standard. There are different graduations but even the skinniest should perform down to 0C without a problem.

Seth's problem is most likely either an appliance fault or it may be lack of understanding on how to use the installed appliances to their best advantage.

It does occur to me that there have been some well publicised instances of where a remote thermal sensor for the Truma heater has been installed in a poor position. Repositioning it has made some significant improvements in some caravans.

Thanks for the replies,

Same as i thought this mod would endanger the warranty.The only reason i mentioned installing in the locker would be of ease.We dont use gas as a rule full stop and havent cooked in a van since we first purchased one.This is the first time we,ve even used a cylinder with the purchase of this van.So obvously the gas would be gone.

JohnL has given me some good advise in the past concerning a problem i thought with excess gas usage.The van went back to Truma at Derby(Dovecot ind est) for tests,all was found to be ok and within tolerence.

From what i can make out,it,s a 3002 but with no element on the back side?

What i do know is compared to the Ebaspacher there was no contest,forget the noise as this creaks in the night,plus the fan is just as noisy.

As for fuel of what ever type.4 gallon of yes,red diesel lasted over 12months.

 

[seth1]

Sorry, that comment should have been a reply.

 

[gary]

As Damian says gas bottles and a source of ignition in the same compartment is not ideal, however Alde gas boilers were commonly situated in gas lockers?!

My main objection though like others, is why?

As it happens I have just fetched my van out of storage and put the electric heating on full at 3:30pm.

I've just gone out to measure the temperature inside after no more than 40 minutes, outside air temperature is +3C and 13C inside. Temperature of air from front vents 55C, side vent, (the closest and very confined one), is 62C, beyond that after around 2.5M under the floor, washroom vent is 42C.

Going now to put some extra insulation around that underfloor pipe though!

Right done half of it, 4:50 and to dark to carry on, temperatures outside now 0C, inside 18C, vent temps 60C, 75C and 50C in the washroom, so perhaps a little real increase here?

Finally went out to check at 7:00 and the damn things overheated and tripped out! temps down to 12C.

Reset it but then realised it must be a clogged fan, (after three years of total neglect and decorators house springing to mind?!), anyway, cleaned that and alls well, in fact better I think with more puff from the fan

After less than 15 minutes, vans back up to 18C and the vents are 55C 68C and 48C respectively.

With all due respect then Seth, by no stretch of the imagination can that even be considered 'secondary' heating nevermind useless?

I am though meeting someone tomorrow who after 2yrs of grief might well agree it's useless, I've promised to sort it and I'll report what I find.

 

[seth1]

So Gary,what do you suggest.Fit an element to the exsiting fire maybe?

 

[gary]

Now there's a thought Seth? and as a matter of fact, I have a brand new kit plus it's uprated by me!

In truth though I wrote the above over a period this afternoon and you posted in the interim, I was assuming you already had electric heating as no one normally complains about gas!

Answer is though yes, it adds 2Kw to the gas heating so over 5Kw in total, but, as the above proves electric will do a cracking job on it's own so big saving on gas usage.

 

[seth1]

Might be worth considering the uprated kit.Seemingly a bit of a low spec van,but im not bothered.See what you can do on price if you dont mind pal.

cheers seth

 

[forestgump]

just buy small eletric fan haeter to take the chill off van [ehu all payed for].We use ebaspachers but run on red derv but normal derv would work out more than gas .propex hot box runs on gas but still has a ignition flame so no good in locker box plus the purches price.

 

[gary]

Might be worth considering the uprated kit.Seemingly a bit of a low spec van,but im not bothered.See what you can do on price if you dont mind pal.

cheers seth

If you contact me direct we can discuss that, www.arcsystems.biz

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello again Seth

I am sorry but overlooked your question about "Warranty".

Your "warranty" is automatically established by law at the point of sale. The Sale of Goods Act requires the seller to supply goods fit for purpose and of merchantable quality. In most cases you do not get an actual "warranty" statement but in UK law it is automatically assumed whenever a new product is sold.

A "warranty" only refers to the products condition at the time of sale. And the merchantable quality aspect acknowledges that all products will deteriorate or wear out but should last a reasonable time given fair use. How long fair use is depends on the product and has no singular definition, thus the phrases 12 month warranty has no legal value, and in fact warranty claims on some products can be lodged up to 6 years from time of purchase.

No seller can waive/deny or evade their responsibilities under the Sale of Goods Act. They are legally obliged to honour genuine warranty claims.

What happens to the product after the sale does not affect the sellers responsibilities except that the usage must be fair and reasonable for the product type.

The Sale of Goods Act is a powerful consumer protection tool, but it is no fool! If an end user were to do something to a product that ultimately cause it to fail in some way, and it is clear that the fault was probably induced wither directly by the customers actions or as a subsequent effect, then SoGA will rightly preclude the sellers liability for that area, but it will uphold any other genuine claim where the customer modification obviously has had no adverse effect.

So it is perfectly reasonable to change a light bulb and still expect the seller to have full responsibility for the rest of the product, but if you were to drill holes in the roof that allows water into the roof construction and connecting timbers then SoGA would not support a claim for water ingress, but it would still cover a faulty suspension unit, or cooker etc.

Where non standard usage or modifications have occurred, it can becomes more difficult for the end user to bring a warranty claim, as it would be necessary to establish that modification had not caused or precipitated the failure. The judgement is based on the balance of probabilities (UK Civil law)

Having written the above I now come to the matter of the "manufacturers Guarantee" which is legally very different to your SoGA warranty. The manufactures Guarantee is not a legal requirement, it is in fact a gift from the manufacturer to the buyer. Because it is a gift, the manufacturer can quite legally make it conditional, provide the terms of the conditions are publishes and assigned by the purchaser.

Even though it is gift, once signed it is a contract, and you are bound to follow the terms of the contract - as are the manufacturer. If the manufacture states that if you puncture the outer skin, the water ingress element of their cover will be void, then it will be void.

As with any contract if you wish to do something the contract precludes, then if you wish the contract to continue you must seek the permission of the other parties in the contract. i.e. to drill a 75mm hole through the front wall to fit your Ebaspacher, to maintain your Guarantee you must discuss your proposal and agree any changes to the Guarantee contract before you actually do it.

 

[Murdan]

This has no bearing on the heaters but I have owned 2 Adria caravans in the past and as I use the van all year round I have had no issues with the onboard heating in either van infact I would say both were warmer than my current van a 2009 swift.

Daniel.

 

[Northwood]

Hello Bob,

I fully agree that if the specifications or hand book state or imply a caravan is designed for cold weather usage, then the caravan should perform to lowest temperature stated.

Clearly if it does fail to that then it is breach of contract and all that goes with it under SoGA.

However, in this case a doubt whether the caravan is suffering a design defect, more likely an appliance or installation fault - which are equally breach of contract, but compared to a fundamental design fault they are easily and fully rectifiable.

If the supplier is genuine, then there should be no difficulty in getting the matter resolved. It should not need heavy handed action like threatening actions under SoGA. Such actions may become necessary if the matter is not resolved because the supplier is being difficult.

Adria have been producing caravans for many years for the continental market, where the weather is more extreme than in the UK. So it is unlikely they will be producing a less thermally insulated model for just for the UK market. (I am happy to corrected on this point)

Equally for the caravan to be sold anywhere in the EU, it has now to meet certain minimum standards in a number of respects, one of which is an insulation standard. There are different graduations but even the skinniest should perform down to 0C without a problem.

Seth's problem is most likely either an appliance fault or it may be lack of understanding on how to use the installed appliances to their best advantage.

It does occur to me that there have been some well publicised instances of where a remote thermal sensor for the Truma heater has been installed in a poor position. Repositioning it has made some significant improvements in some caravans.

Its people like your good self that makes this forum one of the best, thanks for the comments its all about helping each other, Happy New Year Mate.