This has got to be the best site to sort this little problem I have. We are constantly reminded how important nose weights are ....but where do you weigh. Broom handles under the hitch onto scales seems to be a popular choice..but I have seen scales built in to the jockey wheel . My preferred method,( lifting and bending is a serious problem) is to drop the jockey wheel direct onto a scale....so who is right ..hitch head or jockey and how much of a variance will the weights be with 200mm difference away from the wheels.
Nose weighing
- Thread starter barrychas
- Start date
Damian
Moderator
Noseweight is measured at the hitch.
Using the jockey wheel or jockey wheel gauges is not as accurate.
I am sure others will fill you in on the minute detail of why.
Using the jockey wheel or jockey wheel gauges is not as accurate.
I am sure others will fill you in on the minute detail of why.
In my view Damian has given all that needs to be said .
If you want to know more then look up the extensive back catalogue of forum pages.
If you want to know more then look up the extensive back catalogue of forum pages.
We find the Reich towball load control to be very accurate to within a 1kg or so on our twin axle. To check the Reich TLC we double checked using bathroom scales which is why we know it is probably one of the most accurate on the market.
I am not about to start on a long correspondence about nose weights again, But it is a fundamental issue that the correct nose weight can only be measured when the caravan hitch is measured at exactly the same height as when it is hitched to the loaded car. The regulations require measurements to be taken at the hitch and at the ride hight of the loaded car as describe above.
No device that changes the height of the hitch (such as the Reich device Surfer mentions) can give a guaranteed accurate measuremnt of nose weight. If such a device does give a correseponding reading then that is a conincidence rather than the result of proper measurment.
No device that changes the height of the hitch (such as the Reich device Surfer mentions) can give a guaranteed accurate measuremnt of nose weight. If such a device does give a correseponding reading then that is a conincidence rather than the result of proper measurment.
I too have a Reich TLC for use on my van as it is a single axle, there are two types.
522-5000 is for the single axle ( the one in the photo below ) & 522-5200 is for the twin axle ( that is the one that Surfer has )
My nose weight max is 100kg but as long as the TLC shows that it is below that i am not worried, the problem would be that if you have a low nose weight allowance & you are always up to the limit.
If you do decide to buy one, you can test the van nose weight on the car, yes it will be about two inches higher than your towball, write the figure down, and now cut a broom handle down so that when the TLC is sat on, it is the same height as your towball & try the gauge again..........
You will then know in your own mind what the difference is.......
TLC-towbar-load-control
It is so easy to use, every time i hook up i just check the nose weight it makes it so easy ......
522-5000 is for the single axle ( the one in the photo below ) & 522-5200 is for the twin axle ( that is the one that Surfer has )
My nose weight max is 100kg but as long as the TLC shows that it is below that i am not worried, the problem would be that if you have a low nose weight allowance & you are always up to the limit.
If you do decide to buy one, you can test the van nose weight on the car, yes it will be about two inches higher than your towball, write the figure down, and now cut a broom handle down so that when the TLC is sat on, it is the same height as your towball & try the gauge again..........
You will then know in your own mind what the difference is.......
TLC-towbar-load-control
It is so easy to use, every time i hook up i just check the nose weight it makes it so easy ......
Parksy
Moderator
barrychas said:
Click Here to see a previous noseweight topic and if you want to know more enter 'how to measure noseweight' (including the quotation marks) into the Search Site box at the top right of the forum page and click on Go
Sproket said:I too have a Reich TLC for use on my van as it is a single axle, there are two types.
522-5000 is for the single axle ( the one in the photo below ) & 522-5200 is for the twin axle ( that is the one that Surfer has )
My nose weight max is 100kg but as long as the TLC shows that it is below that i am not worried, the problem would be that if you have a low nose weight allowance & you are always up to the limit.
If you do decide to buy one, you can test the van nose weight on the car, yes it will be about two inches higher than your towball, write the figure down, and now cut a broom handle down so that when the TLC is sat on, it is the same height as your towball & try the gauge again..........
You will then know in your own mind what the difference is.......
TLC-towbar-load-control
It is so easy to use, every time i hook up i just check the nose weight it makes it so easy ......
As said I found it to be highly accurate on our twin axle with about a 1 kg difference between it and the scale. The bonus is that it is easy to use and to read. Brilliant piece of kit!
Thanks for your redirection and the info contained ....I can see that this topic has been discussed at great length in the past and amazingly members are still arguing about it. So taking all on board I will,work on the 7% nose weight, measure at the hitch and photograph the position of items loaded in the van ,for future ref. Thanks to all contributors.
barrychas said:
Hi Thats fine, but dont be fooled into thinking, that it wont change over time, for example, start of the holiday the fridge may be full, at the end empty (and Vice versa for the loo) The holday knick knacs bought whist visiting local attractions etc, gas bottles. All these things and others will affect the load distribution in the caravan and thus the nose load. And don't forget that if you load the car with more items, then as the rear suspension settles lower, then the actual nose load produced by the caravan changes single axles will increase, but twin axles are more complex and could go up or down depending on the exact combination of car caravan and loading.
If a jobs worth doing, then dont mess arround, then its worth doing right. In this case it is worth doing, becasue getting the correct nose load is not only the safest thing to do, but it is a legal requirement.
Not sure that going to 7% is the best as this is quite an old benchmark. You don't say what the limit is for your car, but if you van was 1400MTPLM then 7% gives 98kg which is almost on the Alko drawbar limit and well above most cars towbar limit unless you have a higher rated car such as a 4x4. Better to get as near the car's stated nosewieght limit as possible. Prof John is quite right about changes due to loading changes whilst on tour that's why I always used to check mine on the way out and before the return trip. But with some years (6 years)experience loading this van for long and short trips, together with some discipline applied to OH, I can get it virtualy right without much repositioning of gear/food. But it still get measured.
Just as the 1:0.85 towing ratio is a reccomendation, the figures of 5 and 7% nose weight are also only recommendations.
the crux of the matter is the noseweight should be enough to produce sufficient down force to produce a stable tow - without exceeding either the cars or the caravans noseweights limits.
Just in case you don't know, Both the tow vehicle and the trailer have noseweight limits. you must never exceed the smaller of the limits.
In general most caravanner's report that working with nose loads towards of the top of the available noseweight window tow better.
Working near the top limit means that it is more important to be confident about the actual noseweight you have produced, so correct measurement is essential.
the crux of the matter is the noseweight should be enough to produce sufficient down force to produce a stable tow - without exceeding either the cars or the caravans noseweights limits.
Just in case you don't know, Both the tow vehicle and the trailer have noseweight limits. you must never exceed the smaller of the limits.
In general most caravanner's report that working with nose loads towards of the top of the available noseweight window tow better.
Working near the top limit means that it is more important to be confident about the actual noseweight you have produced, so correct measurement is essential.
As we are off on a mini break thursday I checked the tyre pressures. All four were down 1.5 psi since the New Year.
The noseweight after correcting the tyre pressures changed.
Now strangely enough the slightest little finger pressure could change the noseweight reading by at least 15 kgs. Ok the noseweight guage isn't that good but it just shows how tyre pressures and maybe even the ambient temperature can alter readings.
My measurements are all taken in acordance with Prof John's advice but it just shows how sensitive the readings can be.
The noseweight after correcting the tyre pressures changed.
Now strangely enough the slightest little finger pressure could change the noseweight reading by at least 15 kgs. Ok the noseweight guage isn't that good but it just shows how tyre pressures and maybe even the ambient temperature can alter readings.
My measurements are all taken in acordance with Prof John's advice but it just shows how sensitive the readings can be.
It's more likely that the noseweight gauge is sticking. Tyre pressure changes can only have a minimal effect on noseweight and certainly nothing in the order of 15kg that you mention.
A while back I calculated that for a typical medium size caravan a change in hitch height of 100mm would result in a corresponding a noseweight variance of about 7kg. Unless the tyres were absolutely flat, inflating the tyres to their proper pressure would not raise the hitch height by 100mm.
A while back I calculated that for a typical medium size caravan a change in hitch height of 100mm would result in a corresponding a noseweight variance of about 7kg. Unless the tyres were absolutely flat, inflating the tyres to their proper pressure would not raise the hitch height by 100mm.
Lutz
My Milenco guage is pretty crude, in fact I concluded it is nothing more than a guide. If only my bathroom scales could lie I'd be a happy dog
My Milenco guage is pretty crude, in fact I concluded it is nothing more than a guide. If only my bathroom scales could lie I'd be a happy dog
............a lighthearted interjection
I recently towed several hundred miles in freezing conditions on snow covered roads down through France.
Despite rear mud flaps on my tow vehicle the front of my caravan became caked in what I estimate to be at least 60kgs of frozen slush.
So much for accurate nose weight measurent !!
I recently towed several hundred miles in freezing conditions on snow covered roads down through France.
Despite rear mud flaps on my tow vehicle the front of my caravan became caked in what I estimate to be at least 60kgs of frozen slush.
So much for accurate nose weight measurent !!
If I may just add even though we aren't getting into a long discussion on the subject yet again....... If you can lift the front easily with one hand it's too light, if you can't lift it with two, it's too heavy!!
hi Martin. ah, you will be describing the the 1980's method thenMartin24 said:If I may just add even though we aren't getting into a long discussion on the subject yet again....... If you can lift the front easily with one hand it's too light, if you can't lift it with two, it's too heavy!!
colin-yorkshire said:hi Martin. ah, you will be describing the the 1980's method thenMartin24 said:If I may just add even though we aren't getting into a long discussion on the subject yet again....... If you can lift the front easily with one hand it's too light, if you can't lift it with two, it's too heavy!!funny really as this was exactly how it was done only trouble was as one got older the noseweight got lighter, or you could go for the 70's method, place tow hitch on tow ball with the aid of the jockey wheel wind up handle and if the car rear end sagged more than 3in you just moved things further to the back
without a doubt how it was done in my 80's childhood!!! Can't remember much of the seventies!!!!
Lighthearted or not, I do hope that neither of you are suggesting that caravanners should use that method of nose weight assesmenst.
It is totaly unscientific,and fraught with inaccuracies and inconsistencies.
May I remind you that the maximum nose weightfor each outfit has a legal maximum limit. As caravanners tend to work close to that limit, it is important that they know they're on the legal side.
So if its worth doing ( and it could be points and a fine if you dont) then its worth doing properly and not fudging the issue with fundamentally inaccurate methods or equiepment.
It is totaly unscientific,and fraught with inaccuracies and inconsistencies.
May I remind you that the maximum nose weightfor each outfit has a legal maximum limit. As caravanners tend to work close to that limit, it is important that they know they're on the legal side.
So if its worth doing ( and it could be points and a fine if you dont) then its worth doing properly and not fudging the issue with fundamentally inaccurate methods or equiepment.
Prof John L said:
John. John. John. dont take this the wrong way mate but did you calculate everything by the sliderule in the 70s, and 80's if you did you were probably the only one,
back then everything thing was by the seat of your pants,
yes everything has changed now we are all aware of that but. back then no one knew any better.
there were no MTPLM's just a van weight what you put in it after was your own affair
no recommended noseweight just what felt ok to tow with.
no type approved towbars most were home made out of box or angle iron bolted to the chasis.
no gross train weight just whatever the car would tow 100cc per ft was average.
gas mantles for lights as the 12v ones flattend the car battery overnight.
a toilet was a luxury just a bucket with a seat on
crossply tyres that never wore out just cracked a bit on the side walls over time.
you could also eat a mars bar while driving
smoke in the loo, office or pub
and take the girlfriend out for the evening to the pictures have fish and chips on the way home and still have bus fare out of ten bob.
no fings ain't what they used to be allright and no one is suggesting otherwise.
I would no more test the noseweight with a guess than I would swap the tyres for a set of old crossplys. of course eveything has to be precise now a days. it just a case of old men remembering times past
colin
Of course, accurate measurement of noseweight is the only sure way not to fall foul of the law, but the method "if you can just about lift the front end with both hands while straddling the A-frame, you're about right" is better than nothing at all, and I've seen people move off without bothering about even a cursory check of the noseweight too many times, as well. Whilst the method is totally unscientific it can actually be more accurate than some of the poorer proprietory noseweight gauges once you've had a chance to calibrate your own ability with known weights and after gaining some practice.
hi Lutz, while my comments of above were meant to be humorious and no way a slant at John,s perspective I would say that although the old methods and practices of old were very unscientific and rough and ready they did work "well most of the time anyway"Lutz said:
I agree that any method is better than none, the effectivness .or accuracy of any device has to be subject to question no matter how good it is because of all the other factors, I use a gauge to test it every time but never know if it is spot on as there is no other means to test it as all methods have there own problems,
in the end even with a guage it's still a guess.
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