nose weight guage

[catherine2]

Has anyone used one of those nose weight guages that fit over the towbll of the car and if so, are they easy to use / accurate?

Also if you use the other sort of guage where you balance the coupling head onto the guage itself does the caravan does need to be on a level surface or is it ok if the bottom of the guage is lower than the base of the wheels?

 

[Rubix]

Surely if you fit the gauge on top of the towball and then put the van on top of that, you are changing the angle of the caravan, and so the noseweight measured won't be the same as what it is when the van is on the towball.

Same as if you measure noseweight on a 5 degree hill with the van one way, and then the other way. You of course get different readings.

Sounds to me like this isn't very accurate way of doing it.

Bring on the bathroom scales and a chunk of wood !

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Catherine,

To get an accurate reading of the nose weight, the caravan must be on level ground, the wheels chocked (so it doesn't roll away) and the hand brake off.

The tow hitch must be set to the same height as when it is attached to the car, (so the caravan its self may not be level) as changing the height actually does change the nose load.

A stick (cut to length) and bathroom scales is a reasonable solution. The stick must be vertical when making the mesurment.

 

[Steve L]

I have used both the stick type which nearly killed me, and now I use the one that fits over the tow ball and into the caravan hitch.

First of all, both types are only used as a guide and as such are not calibrated to a standard. They are not certified for accuracey either.

The stick type in my opinion is bloody leathal!! I placed mine undre the A frame as our hitch rotates freely in the slider which I thought might cause the guage to slip. Unfortunately I was weighing the hitch on site at Fowey a couple of years ago and was just about to lean down to read the weight when the stick slipped out and took off with about 90Kgs force and hit me right under my chin. The force shattered and loosened my front 6 teeth and left a hole in my bottom lip needing five stitches which were done without anesthetic!!

Fortunately for me I had my wife ( a first aider), her sister ( a qualified trauma nurse) and my brother-in-law ( an ex paramedic)on hand as there was a hell of a mess to sort out.

Hence my change to the cative ball and hitch guage. This one fits over the tow ball and is secured inside the caravan hitch. while it does raise the hitch about 100mm above normal height, it does give a safe and relatively accurate reading. I have checked it by using the bathroom scale method with a piece of plywood on the scales (set to zero) and then putting them under the jockey wheel. There was a couple of kilo's difference but it was not wildly out.

What you must remember is that any spring guage will weaken with use and age and as they are never re-calibrated, they are only classed as a comparator. However by using mine and setting the nose weight to a reading of 75Kgs we tow our twenty foot twin axle van very comfortably with our 2 litre Renault Laguna estate.

Thinking of safety do use chocks behind the wheels and have the caravan hand brake on. I would say wear a full face motor cycle helmet but then it would be going ott!! or not going on what happened to me.

At least I know I can survive a 90Kg upper cut. Eat your heart out Tyson.

Steve L.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi all

while I would not entirely disagree with what has been said no gauge however used will be 100% accurate as there so many conributing factors that will change the readings so there use is a guide only.

one question though that has allways puzzeld me if the van has to be on level ground in order to get the best reading why chock the wheels as it cannot go anywhere on the flat.

appyling the hand brake locks the wheels and allows the van to pivot on the tyres if the van goes anywhere with the brake applied on flat ground then your doing something wrong.

colin

 

[RayS]

I'm sure the real techies will give chapter and verse, but from long ago maths I think that a small change in angle when weighing the front of the caravan will give a very small inaccuracy - far less than the tolerance of the weighing apparatus, be it compressed spring or bathroom scales.

If you use these methods, make several such measurements, starting from scratch several times and go on until you get at least two readings of the same value. These methods are good fro approximate readings and for telling you that one method of loading the van gives a higher (or lower) reading than the other but accurate they are not, certainly not to much better than - say plus/minus 5 kg.

A better way would be to make up a framework from which to hang a good quality round face spring balance and weight with the hook inside the ball socket of the hitch. An even better way would be to have a good low cost strain gauge loadcell, but I know of no source of these.

So the stick and bathroom scale is probably as good as anything. The ALko jockey wheel with built in gauge appears to have a very short scale and be prone to external damage, besides adding several kg. to the overall nosewheight - has anyone done any serious tests with one ?

 

[hgv dave]

when i bought my caravan i was given a nose weight gauge and so far have had no problems with it,its the type that goes into the ball hitch.i mount it on a block of wood to get the right height and raise the jocky wheel a few inches so if it does slip (which has never happened yet,bet it does now that ive said it has never happend lol)it will only drop down a few inches.im not too worried about how accurate it is as its only a rough guide,i aim for a weight about 5 to 10 kg under the nose weight just to be on the safe side

hgv dave

 

[ProfJohnL]

when i bought my caravan i was given a nose weight gauge and so far have had no problems with it,its the type that goes into the ball hitch.i mount it on a block of wood to get the right height and raise the jocky wheel a few inches so if it does slip (which has never happened yet,bet it does now that ive said it has never happend lol)it will only drop down a few inches.im not too worried about how accurate it is as its only a rough guide,i aim for a weight about 5 to 10 kg under the nose weight just to be on the safe side

hgv dave

Hello Colin, Ray and David,

Whilst in principal the caravan can rock on its tyres, the application of the hand brake can preload the chassis and modify the actual force at the tow hitch. To avoid this, the hand brake should be OFF. It is unsafe to leave a caravan un-braked, so the wheels should be chocked, especially as the transfer stick or what ever used to set the tow hitch height might slip out ( as Steve has written)and the lateral force generated might cause the caravan to move.

The angle of the caravan is important. If you were to allow the tow hitch to tilt forward and touch the ground, you would find that it required considerably more force to lift it, than when it is set at its normal towing height. Equally, if you raise it up higher, in some cases you will find that the thrust it exerts actually becomes a lifting thrust rather than a falling thrust. The actual values will be different for each model of caravan but in principal that the total angle of swing that the hitch can move is in the order 30 degrees in total, and the thrust can change form 100Kg to 0 then each degree variation from the nominal towing angle can cause 3.3Kg (approximate) so the angle is important.

Whilst I cannot vouch for the absolute accuracy of bathroom scales, most can differentiate 1 Kg, so, such variations in angle are detectable, and incorrect loading can be avoided.

As the tow nose force is a legally enforceable requirement it makes no sense to assume that a small variation will be tolerated. Do it right, and stay legal.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Colin, Ray and David,

Whilst in principal the caravan can rock on its tyres, the application of the hand brake can preload the chassis and modify the actual force at the tow hitch. To avoid this, the hand brake should be OFF. It is unsafe to leave a caravan un-braked, so the wheels should be chocked, especially as the transfer stick or what ever used to set the tow hitch height might slip out ( as Steve has written)and the lateral force generated might cause the caravan to move.

The angle of the caravan is important. If you were to allow the tow hitch to tilt forward and touch the ground, you would find that it required considerably more force to lift it, than when it is set at its normal towing height. Equally, if you raise it up higher, in some cases you will find that the thrust it exerts actually becomes a lifting thrust rather than a falling thrust. The actual values will be different for each model of caravan but in principal that the total angle of swing that the hitch can move is in the order 30 degrees in total, and the thrust can change form 100Kg to 0 then each degree variation from the nominal towing angle can cause 3.3Kg (approximate) so the angle is important.

Whilst I cannot vouch for the absolute accuracy of bathroom scales, most can differentiate 1 Kg, so, such variations in angle are detectable, and incorrect loading can be avoided.

As the tow nose force is a legally enforceable requirement it makes no sense to assume that a small variation will be tolerated. Do it right, and stay legal.

 

[Steve L]

For safety's sake you must apply the hand brake.

Now then, colin the design of trailer brakes are such that you can reverse with the brakes applied. Hense when you stop and then back onto your pitch for example. So appliying chocks to the rear of the wheels prevents slippage and hopefully the accident I had!!

As for the "minimal" weight change due to height of hitch or the application of the hand brake is realy not too much of a worry. Let's not forget that the guages we get from accessory shops are only "comparators" and as such are not calibrated to ISO standards.

Legally you can get prosecuted for excess hitch weight. But the DSA and the police are not ogar's, they will if you are not wildly over weight give advice and allow you to correct the situation there and then, without issuing a penalty notice.

I have been stopped and checked as we tow a 20ft twin axle van with a Renault Laguna 2 Ltr estate, which does look to all intensive purposes too bigger van for the car. But the van is actually right on top tow capacity. The police were most interested in the outfit and very happy that I knew what I could tow and also that I could demonstrate the hitch weight.

The constable even commented on how well the unit towed as he'd followed me for 20 miles down the A44 and did note I had done 56MPh past New Radnor.

You see, the men from the ministry are only human.

Steve L.

 

[Howard_374311998]

Hi Everyone

i'm new so hope i have a worthwhile viewpoint. i was considering using a trolley jack to support a flat piece of wood - on which i place bathroom scales. one more piece between the hitch and the scales. i was hoping to adjust the height with the jack to coincide with the car, while leaving the jockey wheel just off the ground. Opinions?

 

[Paul_5099000]

Just another point about nose weights....i tow a TA compass van with a nose weight of 100Kgs.

My car is a 4x4 with a nose weight on the bar of 130Kgs max....

My problem is actually getting 100Kgs ! On a recent trip i put all my accessories (including porch awning) as far forward as i could but could only get just 70Kgs of nose weight on the bath room scales. Without adding extra "balast" to get the nose weight right (which would over weight the van !) Im stuck !!

My question...we all are told the max nose weights....but what should we consider to be a min weight for safety ?

 

[rob_jax]

Hi Paul,

Well the absolute minimum is 25 kg, and we tow at around 35 kg - but that's an Eriba (German designed caravan with long A-frame) and a 1200 kg MTPLM with a recommendation on the tow-arm to set the nose-weight to 4% of the actual running weight - which would be around our figure of 35 kg.

UK made caravans are different, with a shorter A-frame and a higher percentage multiplier (often 7% but I saw 10% mentioned recently - but can't remeber why or for what)

Increasing the nose-weight - in our specific case - doesn't seem to gain any extra advantages - or rather, I know stability will slowly keep increasing with increasing nose-weight but it has no perceptible improvement.

Car kerb-weight and loading, caravan weight and loading pattern, nose-weight, towing speed, road surface, wind direction, aerodynamics of the car and caravan, etc., mean that the actual stability of any particular combination of car and caravan is unique, and at the moment can't be predicted.

So if your combination is stable at UK road speeds, and you haven't noticed any tendency to sway or fish-tail, then that would seem to be OK, wouldn't it?

Robert

 

[Lutz]

While I go along with Rob_jax says, I can't understand why people take correct noseweight without the need for appropriate adjustment for granted. It seems obvious to me that payload must be distributed in such a way that noseweight is correct, just like in the case of trucks where it is important to get a reasonable balance between weight on the front and rear axles and avoid overloading one or the other.

 

[Robert_374242026]

As JohnL says ,thats the way to do it. A month or so ago i put done my figures of weighing on uneven/unlevel ground and how much they differed ,the only thing to add to John is that when you chock the wheels remember to let the caravan at rest ,meaning that if you stop on a chock it will give a differant reading ie inertia.

 

[paul_5085740]

I was shockedjust what a difference it made to the reading not being on level ground, took a reading on the gentle slope on my drive and got 95kilos (my car max is 75) put the van on level ground and the true noseweight was just over 70kilos

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi all

yes I read with interest all the explainations on how the noseweight can differ but and it is a big but if the hand brake is on and the wheels are chocked you definitly can not get a true reading as the brake and the chocks stops the van revolving around the axel and if you try to lift the a-frame in such a state a downward force will be created equal to the lifting force surely :- newtons law or am I wrong

colin

 

[Lutz]

As someone else has already written, why bother with handbrake or chocks anyway if the caravan is on level ground?

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi lutz

yes I know that was me, but what I am trying to get at is a definative answer??.

as noseweight is a legal requirement there must be a way to get it right every time as theres no point in guessing it what is the legal margin for error? none 5% or 10% or 15%.

van level? handbrake on/off wheels chocked/not chocked all have a effect on the nose weight.

as does the method of checking? noseweight guage whatever kind or bathroom scales? under the ball hitch or jocky wheel.

all of these have been suggested as the correct way to check the nose weight but all will give a different reading.

and then there is the reduction of the nose weight whatever it is taken off the overall trailer weight which could/would have a effect on the max mtplm of the van being towed.

get my point.

colin

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Colin,

Chocking the wheels has no effect on the nose weight; it is safety device to prevent the van from rolling away. In theory if the van is on level ground then there should be no need for chocks or brakes, but if as the result of botched attempt to support the hitch, your system fails, it might impart a lateral force that causes the caravan to roll. Who knows what might happen without chocks, but with chocks the van stays put.

As far as I know, there is no 'legal' latitude, thus if you exceed the hitch or MTPLM limits you are in breech of the law.

 

[Lutz]

Although, as you say, the noseweight limit, as defined by law, is absolute and therefore theoretically not open to any margin, you can be sure that if owners are having difficulty in measuring noseweight accurately depending on the conditions, the police would also have the same problems. I have done a quick rough calculation and worked out that for an average 2.3m wide and 2m high caravan, a wind of only 5mph acting on the front or rear of the caravan would change the noseweight by about 5kg (for longer caravans the difference will be smaller - hence, also the inherent better stability of long caravans). Therefore, in addition to all the other conditions which must be fulfilled (level ground, height of coupling same as when hitched up to the car, etc., etc.), noseweight can only be measured accurately under absolutely calm conditions. Tell all that to the police if they were to check and I'm sure they'd give up in dispair!

Having said that, I don't think it's not necessary to take things to extremes. Just be sensible about it. So long as there is obviously enough noseweight to keep the outfit steady and conversely not too much to overload the back end of the car, for example, you should be alright.

 

[Lutz]

Hello Colin,

Chocking the wheels has no effect on the nose weight; it is safety device to prevent the van from rolling away. In theory if the van is on level ground then there should be no need for chocks or brakes, but if as the result of botched attempt to support the hitch, your system fails, it might impart a lateral force that causes the caravan to roll. Who knows what might happen without chocks, but with chocks the van stays put.

As far as I know, there is no 'legal' latitude, thus if you exceed the hitch or MTPLM limits you are in breech of the law.

Even if an unbraked caravan were to be unsettled during the measuring process and started to roll, it would soon come to a stop on level ground. The rolling resistance is so high that it would hardly move more than an inch or two.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi all

it seems to me that nose weight is yet another caravanning rule that is open to indivitual interprition as is mtplm and the use of two stabilisers.

all three questions asked have so far had differing view points from contributors as to what is correct and to what the law allows apart from stating what is the maximum is? and some are very knowlegable people on this forum.

so if you can find a way to do the calculations that gives a result under the maximum then it seems that this is ok .

as mr plod and the ministry man would not get a illegal reading if tested.

this quest for definitive answers has thus far not been very successfull however I have read some interesting thoughts along the way, why is it important you may ask :- because I having 30 odd year experience of towing came I to the conclusion that with a bit of effort I could tow a modern well equiped van with the smallest lightest eco friendly vehicle possible and still get away with it so to speak but of course this means the margin of error is infinitly smaller and therefore more important to get it right.

thus far my outfit is legal in all respects (just) but still very stable in all weather/road conditions.

I await further development with interest.

colin

 

[Lutz]

I don't quite see where there is an opening to individual interpretation in the case of noseweight and MTPLM. Both are adequately well defined both in the corresponding European Directives and consequently by law. The only thing that is open to argument is what degree of measuring error is acceptable but that applies to all walks of life. When you buy a pint of beer, do you ask the barman whether he has calibrated the size of each glass? The easiest and safest answer for the very apprehensive is, in case of doubt, to allow for any error in setting the noseweight, i.e. if the noseweight limit is, say, 75kg, keep it to a measured 70kg.

The issue regarding two stabilisers is quite another one. No manufacturer has tested this condition, let alone for each possible combination, so, to be on the safe side, they will not accept any responsibility. If anyone wants to fit two stabilisers, then that's their responsibility and they would have no opportunity to make a claim against the respective manufacturer if anything goes wrong.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

I am sorry lutz but I don't know where you are comming from??

one hand you say that both nose weight and mtplm are well defined and set in stone so to speak but then say basically that the error in measuring is open to argument and therefore open to individual interpretation which is what I said.

as far as I understand it there are two requirements for nose weight the vans maximum recomended nose weight and the cars maximum nose weight if different then the lowest one would be the maximum permitted ie: van 75kg car 100kg the max would 75kg ok so far. (thats the bit set in stone)

so we know what it should be, now how do we measure it, on level ground?? ok so how level, dead level(measured with a spirit level and straight edge)or levelish 1cm per mtr what if you dont have level ground (I dont for one)then what to measure it with bathroom scales,strain gauge spring balance or nose weight gauge? then where to measure it under the jocky wheel or under the ball hitch? now we come to the van (assume its a single axel) hand brake on or off wheels chocked or not chocked.

all methods used by caravanners but which one is correct??

(A) a van measured on a slight slope with handbrake on and wheels chocked (because it is on a slight slope)meaured with a hitch gauge at the tow ball height. may give a reading of 73kg ok legal good.

(B) then take the same set up and measure it again on dead flat ground (no brakes or chocks) with the bathroom scales under the jocky wheel reading 80kg not good BUT which reading is correct A or B the answer is no one really knows? and that my friend is where the individual interpretation comes from.

mtplm set in stone by the manufacturer as a absolute maximum yes ok well it must be soft stone that can wear away then because my van's supposed mtplm is 1058kg well documented and easily checked? but after recieving a new weight plate from bailey which I must now legally use, right model, right year, it had lost 37kg now weighes 1021kg (must be due to ware and tear) so my new mtplm is 37kg less than it was originally and what about all the other owners who think their vans mtplm is 1058kg and load it to the limit???

and back to nose weight is the mtplm include or exclude nose weight +or- 75kg if it includes nose weight then the van can weigh 1133kg (old weight+75kg) or excludes could only weigh 1021kg (new weight only)thats 112kg difference, so which is right 1133kg or 1021kg or something in between??.

as for stablisers well the jury is definitly still out on that subject is it not??

colin