Noseweight Dilemma

[Howard_374311998]

Hi

I have; I conclude a naturally nose heavy caravan, the battery (28.6 kg) is at the front o/s, water heater front o/s (empty) it has a standard calor bottle and a spare in the front locker. Without anything in the locker the noseweight is 70kg - and with the other items 100 kg.

I should be very grateful for the views and recommendations of experienced towers, I have been towing with 18 kg tools / fluids over o/s axle, 15 kg over centre axle Aquaroll / Wastehog at the back, but I need to reduce noseweight.

I am in-experienced, but the car feels too light at the front and the nose of the caravan too heavy.

I should appreciate any positive input.

Thanks in anticipation

Regards

Howard

 

[Zbungle]

I used to have a Bailey Ranger 460-2 and had a very similar problem to you. In the end I bought an Alko spare wheel carrier and stowed the wheel under the van, just behind the axle. I also changed my gas over to Camping Gaz, a tad more expensive but the smaller bottles are lighter. This solved the problem for me.

Nowadays I have a Bailey Pageant Monarch and this comes fitted with an under-floor spare wheel carrier and I have recently changed to BP Gaslight. Even then my noseweight is about 85Kg (no problem for my X Trail)

 

[RogerL]

A number of caravans seem to be attracting criticism over excessive noseweight, even from seasoned caravanners.

Knowing the model and gross weight of your caravan and the model, kerbweight and maximum noseweight of the car would help a little.

The caravan noseweight should be as heavy as possible BUT not exceed any limit imposed by car, towbar, towball or caravan hitch. The caravan hitch limit will be 100kg but the car may well be less.

Battery - can it be moved further back? I would expect not as it should be in a dedicated compartment. Can it be changed for a lighter one? A 110Ah battery weighs about twice as much as a car battery, which is all you need IF you always use electric hook-up.

Water heater - well done for emptying it - too many caravanners keep it full with 10kg water and then complain of excessive noseweight.

Spare wheel - it's possible to get a carrier which mounts the spare wheel under the floor, behind the axle.

If you're able to move the loads over the axle back slightly, without them moving around that will help.

 

[Howard_374311998]

Hi Guys

Thanks for the input

i too was thinking of an Alco spare wheel carrier - did think of removing it - have new tyres, but tempting fate (?)

i will change for new lighter calor bottle when i can.

the van is an Abbey County Oxford, UW is 1 tonne, running at 1200kg.

car is new X trail 100 kg nose limit - but as said too much load on the car, when windy steering light and the van is too near the ground. i spent some time playing with loading when i returned, the level has an enormous effect on the weight. it is dead (ie unliftable) with small variance of height. i tried to vary at the required car towball height.

i was wondering what you experienced guys thought of putting more weight in the back, i had resisted this because i thought it would encourage pitching, but now intend to move weight on axle 18 kg to rear washroom and move micro back behind axle (15kg. at towball height the hitch is then liftable, weight gauge c 90 kg - 84 would be ideal!

all positive views greatly appreciated (John L hope you read this)

thanks again guys

Howard

 

[WatsonJohnG]

Very interested to read your comments about the Nissan XT new model

I have just fitted M A D spring assisters to mine as I didn't like the pronounced nose down attitude of the caravan when laden(car & van) for a long holiday

Have yet to tow with it but it has raised towball height more than an inch cf XT fitted with doughnuts(now removed)and delects much less

I have to say that having had 3 old model XTs it towed very well and I wasn't aware of light steering but as regular posters know I like the van to look right as well as be right!!

I have the Ace Award Nightstar from which I have removed the rear bunk(very heavy) and cushions and added a double mattress

I have to load up under the bed with lightest things (alloy chairs) at the rear and heavier things further forward to get the nose weight down to 100 KG

Like you I empty the water (usually) and have 2 Camping Gaz 907 gas bottles plus 2 empty aquarolls and other lighter things in the front

It goes against the grain to load at the rear but when you compare the weight of a rear kitchen layout to one eg with an island bed there is no option really

 

[Howard_374311998]

Hi John

Thanks for the feedback - my van is rear washroom, so i guess it would be lighter at the rear than a rear kitchen or rear bed (?)it definitly goes against the grain to load the rear - has anyone any comments re my loading intentions and pitching? it doesnt look right as it was, van nose down - car nose up. in fact had to remove items from car to stop jockey scraping path when i returned to drive.

Thanks again

Howard

 

[WatsonJohnG]

Howard I went back to the Nissan dealer to ask about the rear suspension and how much it seemed to have settled and they measured from the rear wheel arch to the centre of the wheel and it was 17in which is what they say that it should be

What they don't seem to have is a figure for what it should be under load

Interesting that you had to remove items from the car as I tend to put them into the car and reduce weight on the van

It makes you wonder about the valus of Towcar of the Year tests when they said that the new XT towed level

I wonder if they load the car up as it would be for real people going on a long caravan holiday

I have the inside the A frame jockey wheel(another help for real caravanners!) and have replaced the split pin with an R clip so that I can remove the JW for boarding ferries etc

 

[Howard_374311998]

Hi John

Your comments are interesting. I didn't expect mine to sit so low at the back - load is 2 children (1 and 4 year old) in rear and maybe 70 kg of luggage. I have concluded I need to reduce my noseweight to the 7 % ideal, which I can only achieve by loading the rear of the van. This should give me an 85 kg load on the car -I'm still concerned about encouraging pitching though.

While I have your attention - does your X Trail vibrate at 1750 rpm? Mine does enough to fuzz the interior mirror so one cannot read the number plate of the car behind. And what mpg do you get towing? I have just been to Cornwall 1,000 miles and ranged between 25 to 28 mpg, which I thought disappointing. This was only my second tow, but the first with a 1.9 dci Scenic achieved 31 mpg.

Regards

Howard

 

[WatsonJohnG]

I am not aware of vibration but the mirror is not completely still but no worse than previous XTs

It doesn't have bracing to the screen like some cars do

I think that your MPG is very good for the size of car and brick like aerodynamics

The towing performance is superb

We twice did 350 miles in a day towing when in France last month and we found it effortless and very comfortable towing at 60mph

I have the 148bhp engine

With the Nightstar at 1560kg max it does about 22mpg using the brim the tank method and not the fantasy computer!

We are going to Kingsbury Water park for a week+ tomorrow and the computer is going for a medical today so will report back on M A D etc on our return

The towball solo is now 17.5in to the top of the ball but seems to depress less than before etc

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Howard,

I have just caught to you on this topic.

As you seem to be aware of the capacities of the car/towball, and the caravan chassis determine what the maximum nose load should be. In your case it seems to be 100Kg, so you have a little more to play with than most usual saloon cars.

You mention the 7% figure. Yet again there is no basis in law for this. The regulations call far a minimum nose load of 25Kg, and the upper limit is determined as in Paragraph 1. Experienced towers' will always try to use as much of the available nose load capacity as they can, as it usually gives a greater margin before instability sets in.

I have no reason to doubt you about the nose load of your caravan, and if it is greater than you want or are allowed, then you have three choices, either don't tow it or change you vehicle (not a real choices) or reduce it.

Again you seem to be aware that the reduction method is either to loose weight from the front, or add weight behind the the axle. I can understand you concern at moving heavier items rearwards, but in practical terms, provided the masses are kept on the floor, and only moved just far enough to reduce the nose load to where you want it, I think it is unlikely to cause a major change to the stability of the outfit.

I back that statement up by using your own analysis of the layout of your caravan. You reckon it may nose heavy because it has a light weight rear bathroom. Then if the same chassis and body length are also offered with a more conventional layout, then it seems the chassis is capable of handling more weight at the rear with few stability issues.

As I have previously said I have never come across an outfit that cannot loaded to give a correct nose weight.

Now the tow car, Nissan along with all other manufacturers selling in the EU will be fully aware of the tow ball hight regulations. (Centre of ball must ride between 350 and 420mm when hitched and loaded ready for towing). If you hitch height (when hitched up) falls outside of these limits then something is wrong.

It would be worth checking the available data for the permitted axle loads, The nose load will certainly use up some of the axle capacity and it may affect the available load capacity of your trunk area -(See the car manufacturers specifications).

If the tow ball rides below 350mm with a nose load of 100Kg, and provide non of the other limits are exceeded then you should refer the car and tow ball back to the company that fitted it as it fails to comply with the EU regulations.

Hope this helps

 

[Howard_374311998]

Hi John

Sorry - I read the other post before this one, I do have a light right foot - hence the Scenic 31 mpg which I thought phenomenal. I hope to get 30 out of the XT when it is fully run in. pls see other post re vibration. Actually doing the same trip in the XT in a couple of weeks so subject to wind etc should be a direct comparison.

Please let me know if overall you do recommend the suspension doughnuts,

Thanks, regards and have a safe / fun trip.

Howard

 

[Howard_374311998]

Hi John L

Thanks for responding - I hoped you would. As said I am completely new, only my second trip. I may have misled you a little, I was so concerned about the noseweight when I returned from my holiday last week I spent a lot of time varying it with the van and car in their real tow condition. I even got my partner to stand in the rear with the nose gauge on - this reduced the nw but not as much as expected - she 60 kg. The weight when I connected the gauge may have been more than 100kg on the car, because the gauge was depressed to maximum (off it's scale which is 100kg ) ie on bottom, this would account for the rear down attitude of the Nissan. I was very surprised just how critical the measuring (tow height) height is, a small amount meant the difference between me being able to lift the coupling or not -again gives an indication of the heavy weight. This also means that I have to raise the car to reduce the noseweight - hope this makes sense. I was measuring on the drive, and trying to measure at the preferable laden towball height - car in front of van. The drive does slope upwards slightly.

If you have read above - how it was loaded and how I intend, it seems reasonable to try for next trip to Norfolk in 2 weeks, 125 miles. The eventual weight as per my trial loading (I am at work cant remember actual weight - have finished work though) will probably be getting toward 100kg. I want to get the Nissan and the van in the right attitude. With a breeze (don't forget I'm entirely new) the car felt a little light on the front, I want to stop that. Anyway it didn't look right. As you suggest there is little else I can do, but thinking through my layout:

Front u lounge, n/s kitchen (going rearward fire, fridge, cooker) then door, then bathroom. O/s dinette. The loading seems high n/s and the n/s tyre (new) gets warmer than the o/s. I had loaded with 18kg in o/s dinette over axle and 15 kg micro over the axle next to fridge, but now intend move micro back and the 18kg in the rear. The battery front o/s is 28.6 kg and coincides with water heater (empty). Front locker has calor standard and spare wheel.

Again thinking through layouts, a rear bedroom would be heavier than mine at rear, and I haven't yet seen another van with the battery right at the front. I would obviously be interested in feedback from others with an Abbey County Oxford! As a nb I have had an Alko 3400 fitted too, before I towed.

Thanks again John L - hope you have more comments

Regards

Howard

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello again Howard,

Yes I do have some further serious comments:

Your last posting has given more details, and there are certain points you make that concern me and should concern you.

You tell me that you have made your latest measurements on a slope and I take your description of sloping upwards to mean that the nose of the caravan is pointing upwards. For the reasons I have explained at some length elsewhere, the angle of the road affects the applied nose weight, and in the nose up attitude it will reduce the apparent nose weight.

This is of a major concern, as you also describe how your gauge is graduated to 100Kg, but the caravan passes this and actually 'bottoms' out. So you don't actually know what you nose load is, but given your description it must be well over 100Kg.

This is seriously illegal and must be sorted properly before you tow again. This certainly could explain the sensation of the cars nose being light.

Raising your suspension with spring assister's, may address the height problem, but it wont make any significant difference to lightness of the front end of your car. Unless you actually change your nose load.

Some police forces and VOSA officials are very strict in the way they apply the law to overload vehicles. Although there may be a common cause each aspect of the vehicle or outfit that is non conforming is treated as a separate transgression. So it is possible that if you were stopped, and check with your current configuration, you might find that you end up with, Vehicle tow hitch load exceeded, caravan A frame nose load exceeded, Incorrect loaded tow ball height. And there may be others.

I am sorry to be the bearer of bad news but you really must try to get your nw under control. Try to use level ground, or follow my instructions elsewhere to compensate for the slope. (level ground is by far the easier way)

 

[Howard_374311998]

Hi John

Thanks for replying; I realized the significant effect the height has and tried to match to the optimum tow height on the car in front. The car must be higher to reduce the nw. will check on flat when I can, and intend to load as above and try. I should appreciate if you direct me to your level posts though - thanks again. There is only a very slight incline- eg just about push a car up it!

Regards

Howard

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Howard.

Here is a list of URL's for the topics that might help you:

The AM Nose weight guage

http://www.practicalcaravan.com/newforums/fm_messages.asp?FO=13&FM=401684
Tow limits of cars:

http://www.practicalcaravan.com/newforums/fm_messages.asp?FO=10&FM=401183
How to measure caravan nose wight on a slope:

http://www.practicalcaravan.com/newforums/fm_messages.asp?FO=13&FM=402776
Excessive nose weight:

http://www.practicalcaravan.com/newforums/fm_messages.asp?FO=13&FM=400694
Choice of single or twin axle and tow car:

http://www.practicalcaravan.com/newforums/fm_messages.asp?FO=10&FM=400649
Towbar cycle racks

http://www.practicalcaravan.com/newforums/fm_messages.asp?FO=11&FM=400186
measuring nose weight on a slope

http://www.practicalcaravan.com/newforums/fm_messages.asp?FO=1&FM=399961
Assessing Nose load

http://www.practicalcaravan.com/newforums/fm_messages.asp?FO=1&FM=398479
Help with tow car

http://www.practicalcaravan.com/newforums/fm_messages.asp?FO=10&FM=398536
Shock absorbers

http://www.practicalcaravan.com/newforums/fm_messages.asp?FO=13&FM=398521
Coachman nose weight

http://www.practicalcaravan.com/newforums/fm_messages.asp?FO=1&FM=398169
How to use a noseweight guage

http://www.practicalcaravan.com/newforums/fm_messages.asp?FO=1&FM=397892

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hi John

Thanks for replying; I realized the significant effect the height has and tried to match to the optimum tow height on the car in front. The car must be higher to reduce the nw. will check on flat when I can, and intend to load as above and try. I should appreciate if you direct me to your level posts though - thanks again. There is only a very slight incline- eg just about push a car up it!

Regards

Howard

Below is a list of topics that deal with nose weight related issues.

In relation to your comment about changing the height of the car, that must be your last resort. Get the nose weight and car loading right first of all, then if car's rear suspension still sags too much and drops the towball below the 350mm, then tackle your car dealer about the suspension being too soft for the quoted load capacity. Under maximum load for compliance with EU regulations the tow ball must fall within 350 to 420mm. If it does not then the is not compliant.

 

[Howard_374311998]

Hi John

Thanks a lot for your help - i'll let you know how it feels with weight moved to the rear.

Regards

Howard

 

[giant]

hi all , off to france soon , taking our bikes. its difficult enough getting the van off our drive as it is . thank god for the mover. my question is , we want to take two bikes with us , we have a 2000tdci cmax. with a cycle carrier on the car, not on tow bar. without filling car up and van , this is the first time were using the rack , do you think we'll be ok on the morning we load up for nose weight, cheers brian

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Brian,

No one on the forum has any magic mirror or other device that will allow us to check your outfit. The driver is responsible in law to ensure the vehicle is roadworthy, and that includes axle and nose loads etc.

The only way you are going to be 100% sure is to take the loaded outfit to a weigh and to check all the criteria for compliance with regulations.