What???????what kind of a statement is that Parksy?They cheated,quite simply,all down to greed.Its estimated 5000 people a year die from nox emissions.They get all they deserve.
And just to nail the hat on,its not the first time either.In 2014 California air regs and EPA ordered them to sort their emissions out,which they agreed to.More lies.High performance and low emissions can not be balanced.That is why all large industrial diesels at Euro 6 have had their power slashed.
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We have all jumped on the bandwagon and are calling VW cheats. I actually suspect it's not so much cheating but a different interpretation of the testing standards, and I think we will see that other manufacturers having played a similar game.
With modern vehicles and the power of ECU computers there is so much capability to change engine modes in the blink of an eye that the alleged "cheat" mode may in fact be operational at times when the car is being driven normally. So is that a cheat? or just another engine mode?
On one of Parksy's other points:-
The evidence is there, and I have absolutely no doubt that climate change is occurring. Historically the climate has always changed, so that in it's self is not so surprising, but it does seem that the rate of change has increased and that does potentially have serious consequences.
In my view there is insufficient evidence to support or disprove the notion that Man is responsible for starting climate change, but I do think that human activity may have accelerated it, but the degree of influence is very much open to debate.
Climate change is happening, so its not really important who started it, but I do think that everyone has some responsibility to try and reduce our impact on the Earth's eco systems. Whilst no single persons reduction in adverse emissions is going to make any impact on the whole issue, if everyone played their part then the combination of all these efforts will start to play a role in the process. Obviously if we can get the worlds population to all reduce emissions, then we may get some of the way there, but will we make enough of an impact to stop climate change, I doubt it but we might slow it's rate of change a little.
With modern vehicles and the power of ECU computers there is so much capability to change engine modes in the blink of an eye that the alleged "cheat" mode may in fact be operational at times when the car is being driven normally. So is that a cheat? or just another engine mode?
On one of Parksy's other points:-
The evidence is there, and I have absolutely no doubt that climate change is occurring. Historically the climate has always changed, so that in it's self is not so surprising, but it does seem that the rate of change has increased and that does potentially have serious consequences.
In my view there is insufficient evidence to support or disprove the notion that Man is responsible for starting climate change, but I do think that human activity may have accelerated it, but the degree of influence is very much open to debate.
Climate change is happening, so its not really important who started it, but I do think that everyone has some responsibility to try and reduce our impact on the Earth's eco systems. Whilst no single persons reduction in adverse emissions is going to make any impact on the whole issue, if everyone played their part then the combination of all these efforts will start to play a role in the process. Obviously if we can get the worlds population to all reduce emissions, then we may get some of the way there, but will we make enough of an impact to stop climate change, I doubt it but we might slow it's rate of change a little.
there is no doubt that the worlds climate is changing, and man has had a big impact on the change it not just tree huggers and computer whizz kids that say so just look at what is happening around the world smogg in big cities floods, every day there is a report somewhere in the world a new weather record has been broken, the rain forest is been cut down and burned at a rate which would eliminate it in 30 years if we continue to reduce the oxygen replenishment and increase the co emissions we are all in trouble no matter where on the planet we live,
for those of us who can remember the pea soupers of the 50's and the 60's when industrial polution was the norm, and look how it is now we never see any, yes it put a few million out of work me included, but think of that on a global scale.
do we care not really, blame a volcano somewhere or china, it's more convenient than looking at what we all are doing,
one thing is for sure, when the rainforests have gone the ice caps have melted sea levels have risen, and most of the indian sub continent, the usa western seaboard and most of china's rice paddies are under water.
some will say oooh how did that happen it must have been the those tests that VW fiddled on their emissions.
for those of us who can remember the pea soupers of the 50's and the 60's when industrial polution was the norm, and look how it is now we never see any, yes it put a few million out of work me included, but think of that on a global scale.
do we care not really, blame a volcano somewhere or china, it's more convenient than looking at what we all are doing,
one thing is for sure, when the rainforests have gone the ice caps have melted sea levels have risen, and most of the indian sub continent, the usa western seaboard and most of china's rice paddies are under water.
some will say oooh how did that happen it must have been the those tests that VW fiddled on their emissions.
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We have all jumped on the bandwagon and are calling VW cheat
Us?? :huh:
I thought the VW CEO himself admitted the cheating. A number of senior Executives have been sackedi including their main man in the USA. The German Government who own 20% of VW have also admitted the Cheat.
In excess of £7.8 billion has been put aside by VW to pay compensation for the cheating. Surely that says it all :woohoo:
Us?? :huh:
I thought the VW CEO himself admitted the cheating. A number of senior Executives have been sackedi including their main man in the USA. The German Government who own 20% of VW have also admitted the Cheat.
In excess of £7.8 billion has been put aside by VW to pay compensation for the cheating. Surely that says it all :woohoo:
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ProfJohnL said:
Do you really think this would stand up Prof??
Come on, they would have purchased the vehicles in good faith surely ?
Yes can see the Gov chasing VW, but not the owners.
And another question comes to mind, how many actually bought the car with regards to the emmission's, I suspect most have just decided, I want that Golf, Passett ,Beetle etc.
Parksy
Moderator
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Many people feel that the eco lobby have cheated all of us for years by emphasising their predictions which are based on a computer model set up to produce the 'desired result'.seth1 said:
There is no definitive proof that long term climate change is caused by the activity of mankind, contrary to what the eco lobby would like us to believe.
There is smog in cities, the sort of smog which used to happen in the regularly in the UK when we were a heavily industrialised nation.
The industrial smog has moved elsewhere and yes, the health of people will be affected by this industrial pollution but that's a choice to be made by individual countries who want the economic benefits of heavy industry. It would be hard to prove that low grade industrial pollution in the UK has caused lasting damage, the flooding in this country of recent times has more to do with land drainage which has been concreted over and homes built on flood plains but the media do their best to convince us that somehow 'the sky has all gone wrong and we are to blame and must therefore pay, and sell our cars and ride bikes'
Personally I don't own a VW but if I did I certainly wouldn't accept blame for estimates of the number of people who are said to die because of NO2 emissions.
I've no doubt that VW will be made to pay heavily for their sins but I doubt if individual owners will be penalised via retrograde VED.
It wasn't so long ago that the wise men who govern us advised everybody to buy diesel engined vehicles which they claimed were less polluting.
Parksy said:
Exactly.
Clearly the so called experts haven't got a clue, if they can be so fundamentally wrong on something which is essentially quite simple how on earth can we believe them on incredibly complex issues such as CO2 and climate change.
Gagakev said:
As i had company cars for years i did choose my car based on emissions, the lower the less tax i pay.
I still look at how much road tax i will pay, i never ever wanted to pay the £490 a year so never even looked at cars in this bracket.
Im sure a few people chose the VW brand as they thought they were getting a well built technology advanced car and would pay a premium for this, they still are in all honesty but the damage has been done with the emission cheating, how can you trust them?
If used values drop which is what is suggested will happen and all of a sudden new cars are being heavily discounted as no one is buying them , i wonder how many wouldn't worry about the scandal if they could get a cheap VW?
wishing climate change away with a head in the sand approach of "I dont believe them it's all just hype" is about as silly as it gets. It's fine for us old un's that will not be long for being totally under the sand not just our heads, but it's the grand kids and great grand kids that will have to live or not with it, not us.
as for VW even if they reduced the price of every car by 50% I would not buy one, as they re the ones that bombed my granny :S :S
as for VW even if they reduced the price of every car by 50% I would not buy one, as they re the ones that bombed my granny :S :S
Speculation in America nows says the "cheat" mode was active as soon as the steering wheel was turned.Obivously picking up a speed signal from the steering control unit.This probably means most of the cars life whilst driving.Very very infair.
Parksy
Moderator
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colin-yorkshire said:
And my uncle! He was aboard a HMPS Kylemore, a Royal Navy anti-submarine net layer off the Norfolk coast in September 1940 when a Heinkel III bomber the attacked the boat which sank. He was one of the lucky ones who were rescued from the sea but the naval hospital that he was taken to was bombed a couple of weeks later
He is buried in a CWG plot in a churchyard not far from where I live.As for climate change, it has been shown to have been happening constantly since the dawn of time so I'm not wishing it away at all.
I remain unconvinced that climate change happens as a direct result of mankind's activity and no one, least of all the scientists who continue to bang on about it, has proven that to be the case. If you can provide definitive proof that we are responsible I may alter my viewpoint even though we in this country could do very little if anything about it, but I'm deeply sceptical
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seth1 said:
Hello Seth,
This doesn't make sense, As I understand the trick was engaged to fool the emission testing carried out bythe USA authorities. THese were done on dynamometers or something similar, where there would be zero steering movement. If the" cheat" mode were active when the steering is moved, then that means it will be active most of the time the car is driven which means the emissions would be lower!.
I suspect either the report you have used or you have accidentally got the sense of the mode wrong.
I have found what seems like a cogent explanation of what it is alleged that VW have done on the Guardian's website :-
http://www.theguardian.com/business/ng-interactive/2015/sep/23/volkswagen-emissions-scandal-explained-diesel-cars
aye, it all a matter of view point Steve, like God there no proof that should convince anyone [until it is too late, "reference to the life long atheist who asks for a priest, just in case" :woohoo: ]Parksy said:
"no proof" doesn't stop millions going to church every sunday though, nor should stop anyone thinking hang on a bit something going wrong here, thousands of years of stable climate, while the human race was using wind power, and horses for transport, then after the invention of steam, internal combustion engines and powered flight, it changes rapidly, and man has had no effect on the change, ok so what has, the sun has got no hotter, the earth is no nearer to it, it has the same orientation it has had for a millennia yet it is getting warmer, weather patterns are changing the world over, sea levels are rising, and there seems to be one main cause, it may not convince some but it scares the hell out of me, that is if there is a hell,
but that is not proven as hell would only exist if there was a God who threw out one of his followers, :S and there is no real proof of that is there.
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And buried my mum alive at the Provincial Bank Tottenham Court Road London.Gabsgrandad said:Quote --- "they re the ones that bombed my granny" ------------ And our chip shop!
My Uncle on the other hand spent many a night over Germany admiring the view.
Global Warming and Climate Change are a reality imo that have been with us since time immemorial. Isn't is part of the process that gives us oil and coal today.
We must do our best to protect it or we'll all get sunburn.I've just read that Britain was still connected to Europe 8,000 years ago, when a lot of the polar ice melted and raised sea levels a couple of hundred feet. 8,000 years seems relatively recent in the big scheme of things. Man's input to natural global warming has only been for the last couple of hundred years.
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colin-yorkshire said:....................... hang on a bit something going wrong here, thousands of years of stable climate, while the human race was using wind power, and horses for transport, then after the invention of steam, internal combustion engines and powered flight, it changes rapidly, and man has had no effect on the change, ok so what has, the sun has got no hotter, the earth is no nearer to it, it has the same orientation it has had for a millennia yet it is getting warmer, weather patterns are changing the world over, sea levels are rising, and there seems to be one main cause, it may not convince some but it scares the hell out of me, that is if there is a hell,
Hello Colin,
The earth has continually changed it's climate, it has never been static. It constantly changes it's distance to the sun, there is irrefutable evidence the magnetic poles have moved and even reversed, which affects the amount and direction of stellar particles impacting the earth. Super volcano's and less significant ones have all affected the atmosphere, either by changing the main constituent proportions and by providing physical particles the change the amount sunlight striking the earth's biosphere.
There is evidence that our surface temperatures have been far more extreme than we see today. Tectonic plates means that landmass that forms the UK was previously been at a very different latitude and thus generic weather and temperature conditions.
I have read that at some time in the past there is evidence that climate change was far more rapid and wide ranging than we see today.
Historically the climate has always been changing. It was changing before humans even evolved, in fact the climate needed to change to make it able to support mammalian infestation. Therefore man's activity cannot have initiated climate change.
I do believe we may have affected some aspects of it and for that reason we should be taking steps to manage and reduce our impact. But what no one can predict is how much we have affected it, what we are experiencing may just be a natural cycle.
We do know that rising CO2 levels in the atmosphere does trap more solar heat, and man's activity is producing CO2, but no one can tell you how much our emissions are raising the global ratio, because there are many natural sources of CO2 and other greenhouse gasses such as volcano's. That is not an excuse to do nothing.
Regardless of how little a personal saving may be, if everyone prevented just 1% of our emission, then that is 1% of the human races total emission. One of our biggest personal producers are cars, so choice of car can make a significant impact on our personal emission.
Based on the pretext that reduction in emmisions is a good thing, any reduction regardless of how small must also be a good thing, That places the onus on the individual to make an effort, even if your neighbour does nothing.
Parksy
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Nobody can convince me that we are responsible for climate change without proper proof, of which there is none so far. We can't uninvent industrial processes, even if we as a nation stop using any power at all and ride bicycles, dress in natural fibres and go back to eating berries there would be little or no discernible difference. A major change has been our ability to measure climate and for news to travel across the globe almost instantaneously so we may well be scaring ourselves about something that has been the same for millennia. Politicians are certainly trying to scare us into parting with more of our own money, climate change is a great revenue raiser for them. Invoking God doesn't make any difference to my views I'm afraid Colin, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
It doesn't matter what the government or their pet scientists say climate change is a natural phenomenon, if it wasn't the ice age would be a myth.
What happened with Vw was due to happen sooner or later, but it won't stop there, Ford makes vehicles in partnership with Vw so the implications could go a lot further.
If it has an effect in the UK and Europe the problem then becomes bigger, company car tax, ved and let's not forget deliberately misleading buyers which according to the advertising standards would mean everyone has a legitimate claim against Vw.
The go should claim any lost revenues from them not the public we are not to blame.
What happened with Vw was due to happen sooner or later, but it won't stop there, Ford makes vehicles in partnership with Vw so the implications could go a lot further.
If it has an effect in the UK and Europe the problem then becomes bigger, company car tax, ved and let's not forget deliberately misleading buyers which according to the advertising standards would mean everyone has a legitimate claim against Vw.
The go should claim any lost revenues from them not the public we are not to blame.
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