Paying the price?

[thursdays child]

Hiyall, I do believe that the posts on our forum are not falling on deaf ears. This year we have been required to pay quite substantial reservation deposits for CL and CS pitches.It is quite understandable these days that people cannot afford to lose revenue because some folks just dont turn up after reserving spaces.It has been a recurring complaint from the site owners.I know that in some circumstances plans are unavoidably changed and everyone sympathises with that. The next thing I suppose we shall have to take into account is electricity rises and the ever growing number of meters being installed.Perhaps the caravan industry needs to be looking at some energy saving options when developing new models.We all enjoy our home comforts but I think we shall soon be paying for fixtures we wont use so much. Who knows maybe we will go full circle and back to basics. Mind you I did like the soft warm glow of gas mantles.Trouble is Himself feels the cold now so perhaps it will be hot water bottles again.Lurvelly!!!!!
Thursdays Child

 

[Parksy]

To some extent we have gone back to basics at times because we often visit C&CC district association rallies.
On most rallies the fridge and water heater (we only use the water heater for showers otherwise we boil a kettle) are powered by lpg and our battery is charged using solar power.
We could use the caravan without any ehu indefinitely provided that there was some sunshine or bright conditions during the daylight hours and Herself sometimes uses a hot water bottle if her back is aching.
I remember when a manufacturer introduced an all electric caravan (was it Swift?) which depended on 240v ehu rather than lpg bottles but it flopped.
What I'd like to see would be a tourer which fully utilised solar and wind power and was fitted with a couple of large capacity leisure batteries, the latest high tech solar flexible panels with the best tracking controllers as an integral part of the caravan roof, a wind powered generator / charger which could be wound up and deployed from inside the caravan (like a status aerial) and led lighting, low powered equipment such as a 12v tv and i-pod sound system all factory fitted.
There could be ancillary 12v charging points for things like mobile phones, i-pods and games etc, top class insulation, light weight construction and the caravan would be the most eco friendly way to enjoy a break or holiday with no need for ehu at all no matter what time of year it was.

 

[JimD1]

What I'd like to see would be a tourer which fully utilised solar and wind power and was fitted with a couple of large capacity leisure batteries, the latest high tech solar flexible panels with the best tracking controllers as an integral part of the caravan roof, a wind powered generator / charger which could be wound up and deployed from inside the caravan (like a status aerial) and led lighting, low powered equipment such as a 12v tv and i-pod sound system all factory fitted.
There could be ancillary 12v charging points for things like mobile phones, i-pods and games etc, top class insulation, light weight construction and the caravan would be the most eco friendly way to enjoy a break or holiday with no need for ehu at all no matter what time of year it was.

Parksy - I love what you are looking for - sounds like my ideal, We very rarely use EHU - this year we don't plan to at all. My only concern would be the likely cost - to make all of that affordable they would have to be produced in mass volumes & I'm not so sure that currently enough people would be that interested.

Jim

 

[Parksy]

The alternative energy suggestions would cost hundreds rather than thousands of pounds Jim, many of us who enjoy weekend rallying use solar power as a matter of course but we source the equipment independently and install it ourselves as a diy project.
It's not prohibitively expensive, my own 80watt set up keeps the 110a/h leisure battery charged and we can watch tv via a 12/240v inverter if we want to and it was all done for under £250.
There would be no reason for the caravan manufacturer not to add a normal 240v ehu point and built in battery charger but the solar energy system would be factory fitted and would form a large part of the caravan roof. Modern solar panels don't necessarily depend on bright sunlight, normal ambient daylight is enough to produce power but winter conditions here in the UK wouldn't provide sufficient ambient light to be of much use, hence the ehu. The phone chargers, inverters etc wouldn't cost much but instead of there having to be wiring on view as is the case when after market equipment is used it would all be installed during the build.
Rather than having limited appeal a 'green technology' caravan such as a 'Swift Eco' or perhaps a 'Bailey Rallye' would probably be more attractive to more people. They could use as an advertising slogan 'Why should a caravan cost the Earth?' to bring the green lobbyists onside (If Swift or Bailey read this my consultancy fee is quite modest, 50k and a new outfit should cover it!

)
If Swift can install the scenic window on the front roofline of their new models why not an integrated solar panel instead?

 

[graham_somersham]

I too like the idea of a more self sufficient caravan but would not go for the pre installed options you mention, especially a wind generator. I have had a small wind generator for about 20 years and it serves its purpose solely as a trickle charger as it has a low output and £ for W it is no where near as cost effective as a photovoltaic panel.I certainly would not want one roof mounted with attendant vibration and stresses on the caravan structure. All that is needed is a simple method of connecting the power source be it photovoltaic or wind generator and a regulator capable of taking up to 20A at up to 17.5 V with at least two inputs to it to enable either two panels or a panel and a wind generator to be connected quickly and easily without error. The reasoning for a high capacity regulator is new battery technology allows for much faster charging and therefore a couple of big panels could charge a battery even in short spells of suitable light.

What the manufacturers need to do is to get away from the Victorian lead acid battery technology and move to something like Li Ion packs that are much lighter in weight and charge faster. If a standard was agreed upon it would mean that we could do away with the bulky battery lockers that we have now and have an slimline carrier built into the chassis (possibly instead of the useless spare wheel carrier that they insist on using). Using standardised packs would mean that multiple packs could be fitted for those who spend time off ehu whereas for those that like a hookup a single pack could be installed or an additional one for those with motor movers.

 

[Parksy]

I like your thinking Graham
I'm afraid that I know nothing about wind powered generators, we rely on solar energy until the end of October when we seek sites with ehu until March when we are back to free energy.
I mentioned the wind generators for Autumn and Winter use but perhaps not

We use one of These regulators for our 80w solar panel, two batteries can be connected to it but to be honest the one 110 a/h leisure battery is sufficient for what we use. We replaced our radiant 12v light bulbs with led's which provide just as much light but without the heat and I use my i-pod to listen to music rather than the cd player with it's motorised drive.
If I decide to fit one more solar panel at some stage I will probably invest in a MPPT regulator which would be more efficient and I too wish that new battery technology would become standard caravan equipment.
It took quite a while for caravan manufacturers to embrace led lighting, having spoken to design staff at Swift when we visited the factory they were reluctant at that time (Oct 2007) to fit led's as standard, obviously they have moved on since then.

 

[Surfer]

We love our EHU and would not be without it. Better than camping out in some muddy farmer's field full of sheep dung etc, with the weather like it was yesterday! If you want to go back to basics, why don't you buy a tent?

 

[Rita1]

If Swift can install the scenic window on the front roofline of their new models why not an integrated solar panel instead?

I thought when i 1st saw the one with scenic window the bit ether side was solar panels

Swift missed out there

 

[Parksy]

We love our EHU and would not be without it. Better than camping out in some muddy farmer's field full of sheep dung etc, with the weather like it was yesterday! If you want to go back to basics, why don't you buy a tent?

Why should I buy a tent when I've got a large luxurious twin axle caravan with a fixed double bed and a spacious end washroom?
I didn't realise that I needed your permission to use my caravan as and when I see fit Surfer.
Please stick to your ehu dependency and don't interfere in what you know nothing about. I'd hate to be pitched anywhere near to someone who appears to be so rude, self opinionated and unpleasant.

 

[Dustydog]

Parksy
I like the idea of a wind turbine. I found this http://www.navitron.org.uk/product_detail.php?catID=69&proID=193
Anyone tried one? Not very expensive but unless roof mounted I expect the H&S band will have alot to say.

 

[graham_somersham]

The Navitron wind generator mentioned above is a pretty big device with the blade alone being 1.5m diameter. To get anything like the quoted output I think you would need to locate it on a mast at least 6 or 7 metres tall and in an area with now obstructions to cause turbulence. Wind generators like a nice steady laminar flow and you are not going to get that close to the ground. Have a look at what the yachties use and you will see that most have a small wind generator often of the shrouded kind as made by Marlec and then a bank of photovoltaic panels for bulk charging. I need to get back up to speed on my knowledge of off grid power generation but the stuff I learnt in my anorak past has not changed significantly.

 

[Parksy]

Parksy
I like the idea of a wind turbine. I found this http://www.navitron.org.uk/product_detail.php?catID=69&proID=193
Anyone tried one? Not very expensive but unless roof mounted I expect the H&S band will have alot to say.

It's one way of stopping others from walking across your pitch DD

I think that solar power is the way forward for caravans, if the NCC had managed to do more on the much discussed periodic inspection for caravan electrics there would have been a large crossover to solar power.
Like Rita, when I first saw the Swift models with the front roof window I wondered why the comany hadn't fitted a solar panel there instead?
The only thing that we don't use when we're not on ehu is the microwave oven and 240v lights but we rarely use them anyway and could live without either.
Everything else works fine

 

[Surfer]

We love our EHU and would not be without it. Better than camping out in some muddy farmer's field full of sheep dung etc, with the weather like it was yesterday! If you want to go back to basics, why don't you buy a tent?

Why should I buy a tent when I've got a large luxurious twin axle caravan with a fixed double bed and a spacious end washroom?
I didn't realise that I needed your permission to use my caravan as and when I see fit Surfer.
Please stick to your ehu dependency and don't interfere in what you know nothing about. I'd hate to be pitched anywhere near to someone who appears to be so rude, self opinionated and unpleasant.

Don't worry we will stick to our EHU dependency and as we hate muddy fields so we will never be pitched near one another. lucky you.
We did try rallies but found the rally folk to be cliquey and as newcomers we were pushed aside. People reserving spaces for their friends even though you arrived ther first was a main bugbear. This was with a DA at Telford, same applied when we tried a CC rally. We prefer forum rallies with T & T and C4U on proper sites with EHU with genuine people who go out of their way to make you welcome. Every one does their own thing with no one domineering another or booking pitches for their friedns who will only arrive the next day!

 

[Parksy]

We also hate muddy fields Surfer which is why we pick and choose which rallies we attend and also take note of the weather

You never know, we live in the same area and have probably been to the same sites, lucky you, because we use sites with ehu as well sometimes but this topic was more to do with the technology which allows a caravan to function without ehu rather than the merits or otherwise of rallying no matter what the site is like.
We could, if we wanted to, use a full facility commercial site and still do without ehu and apart from the microwave oven and the two 240v lamps at the front corners inside the caravan would be no different to use.

Yours is not the first post that I've read which said that the newbies felt pushed out or that the other rally goers were 'cliquey' or even 'domineering'.
I've no doubt that you have a good time on the T&T and C4U rallies, Eric always used to post details of his rallies on this forum and he was most welcome to do so, he was a true gent.
Do you not think that if a complete newbie turned up at one or two of these forum rallies they would have to take the time to get to know others who were there? If you only ever went once or twice you would be bound to feel left out and that the others there were cliquey.
Each district association is different, as C&CC members we can attend any da rally in the country although we normally stick to those within 50- 60 miles from home. Some rally goers have sometimes kept adjacent places for their friends, if the rally site became full and their friends hadn't turned up then the pitch would go to the next unit to turn up and providing that the rally site is big enough I don't see the problem.
If you want to be in one particular part of the rally site then go early, it's first come first served. If you had gone on a few rallies with the same da then who knows, someone might have reserved your place if you really wanted them to. (we never bother, my mate follows us if he comes to our rallies because he always gets lost otherwise)
Obviously people make friends when they see the same people regularly, I haven't tried a Telford da rally yet but I wouldn't expect to know everybody there if I just went the once. On every single rally that I've ever been on rally goers can do their own thing as long as it doesn't have any adverse impact on neighbours such as loud music late at night or ball games around caravans.
We've always been made to feel welcome on C&CC rallies but without people trying to take over our lives or impose on us, some people can be a bit over friendly and hard to get rid of and we'd hate that.
Rallying isn't for everybody and the world would be a dull place if everybody was exactly the same. We got into it just out of curiosity and it has suited us. We don't go to every rally held by our own d.a but cherry pick the most interesting places, places with nice scenery or rallies focused on things which we like to do or want to try. We found out about solar power from other rally goers who were very happy to help and advise us, no one told us to 'buy a tent' and we don't stay in muddy farmers fields full of animal droppings, sheep or otherwise. I would never dream of trying to imply that what I choose to do is 'better' than someone else's choice as you did in the previous post Surfer.

 

[Surfer]

I admit my post about the tent came across wrong as it was not intended to offend any one. Regarding rallies, why do people feel fit to reserve places for their friends who are only arriving hours later. On the Telford do, I took off half a day to get there early to get a good spot only to be shoved in to a corner under trees at the far end of the park. We were parked up to another newbie to caravanning who also felt pushed out. When we arrived there were less than 10 caravans on site but all pirtches "reserved" for friends! This was C & CC DA and was the first and last one we attended. From the beginning you felt as if you were imposing. A similar situation applied to the CC rally event. The wife hated it.
We left it for nearly 5 years and then tried T & T, C4U and the other uk site that you dare not mention on here and had no issues and mixed well with the people. You arrived and pitched where you wanted to pitch. First come, first serve.
TBH we thought of rallies again due to financial constraints but having had three bad experiences, (we tried CC twice), are reluctant to find ourselves in a similair predicament but this time where we cannot retire to our caravan to watch Tv in the evening. We enjoy get togethers around a fire, or in a awning having a general chat abourt all and everything. We do have a 300w invertor which has never been used but in order towatch Tv you would need the digi / freeview box plsu the TV an together they will probably flattena 100amp battery on a weekend.
Solar panels are not cheap and given the inclement British weather, are they really worth it? Otherwise we have everything if we have to go without EHU.

 

[thursdays child]

Hello all you boffins! You had me lost after the "no ehu" remark! I have tried to imagine my holidays minus the satellite tv, micro wave,etc,etc,etc. I am somewhat ashamed to admit I do like ALL the comforts of home and I do so admire the purists among you that can happily manage without the mains power.It would widen our horizons if we had an independant power source.Himself has even considered a generator but a good one is expensive and we are not sure how acceptable they are in UK. We have seen them used in Spain by "wild campers" on beaches and roadsides.
Maybe it would be a good idea if you could all get your ideas on paper and draft an illustration of your ideal power sources built into a prototype caravan. I for one would be fascinated to see it. I have tried to envisage it but it justs looks like a big box with proppellors and big glass roof!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ah wel,l back to the drawing board.
Thursdays Child

 

[Parksy]

Whoever was stewarding that Telford meet had no right to treat you that way Surfer and I'm beginning to see now why you appear to dislike the idea of d.a. rallying.
Usually a rally steward volunteers to do the honours for that particular week and there is a different steward every week so it's unfortunate that one thoughtless steward put you off. We try to look for rallies where there is a possibility of something going on, in spells of fine weather it's nice to sit outside having a chat in the evening but of course a lot depends on the people who are pitched close to you if you don't know already anyone there and you turned up on spec.
Large solar panels are expensive and they are only worthwhile if a fair amount of off ehu caravanning is done, they work on ambient light so they don't always need direct sunlight. Most rally goers have to use tv's with built in freeview since the digital switchover but if you are still considering rallying have a look at d.a's within striking distance where there is some form of activity or entertainment rather than having to sit inside and watch tv.
Gloucester da have forthcoming events at the Royal International Air Tatoo, a steam fair and a birthday meet with entertaiment including a sould band on offer, the last two are around Welland / Upton on Severn
East Worcs da have a cheese and cider weekend this weekend at Hopyard Farm, Defford and also the Severn Valley 1940s weekend on the 1st July which has a 1940s music night on the Saturday
Besides the 60s-80s music at the West Mids da birthday meet another of their forthcoming rally venues is a site which is attatched to a public house in Yoxhall.
These are all local to the West Midlands meets within the next few weeks, we will probably be going to the Severn Valley Railway meet in the first week of July and if you and your lady wife want to give rallying another try just give us a shout. We won't know anybody there (unless my mate decides to go as well) and have never visited that site but trying out something different is what it's all about

 

[graham_somersham]

Thursday Child, I think if I was going to sit down and design a prototype caravan I would be looking for the industry to pay me for it!

Small generators like the Honda EU10 and 20 have a place in that it is power when needed and in reasonable amounts but unless I was away in the winter without ehu for over a week I would not consider using one and even then a decent size photovoltaic panel and battery/s should be sufficient with sensible use. Sat TV, netbook computer, mobile phones etc all work quite happily off 12v if you buy the right models. I do miss my electric grill and slow cooker when not on ehu though

.

I would love to try out a fuel cell generator but my budget does not run to the amount that they are asking for them at the moment. I reckon they are perfect for use in conditions of low light levels as they are almost silent and quite small to carry about and would supplement a photovoltaic panel very well.If anyone has one they don't want or needs a long term test on I am willing to look after it!

 

[Surfer]

Whoever was stewarding that Telford meet had no right to treat you that way Surfer and I'm beginning to see now why you appear to dislike the idea of d.a. rallying.
Usually a rally steward volunteers to do the honours for that particular week and there is a different steward every week so it's unfortunate that one thoughtless steward put you off. We try to look for rallies where there is a possibility of something going on, in spells of fine weather it's nice to sit outside having a chat in the evening but of course a lot depends on the people who are pitched close to you if you don't know already anyone there and you turned up on spec.
Large solar panels are expensive and they are only worthwhile if a fair amount of off ehu caravanning is done, they work on ambient light so they don't always need direct sunlight. Most rally goers have to use tv's with built in freeview since the digital switchover but if you are still considering rallying have a look at d.a's within striking distance where there is some form of activity or entertainment rather than having to sit inside and watch tv.
Gloucester da have forthcoming events at the Royal International Air Tatoo, a steam fair and a birthday meet with entertaiment including a sould band on offer, the last two are around Welland / Upton on Severn
East Worcs da have a cheese and cider weekend this weekend at Hopyard Farm, Defford and also the Severn Valley 1940s weekend on the 1st July which has a 1940s music night on the Saturday
Besides the 60s-80s music at the West Mids da birthday meet another of their forthcoming rally venues is a site which is attatched to a public house in Yoxhall.
These are all local to the West Midlands meets within the next few weeks, we will probably be going to the Severn Valley Railway meet in the first week of July and if you and your lady wife want to give rallying another try just give us a shout. We won't know anybody there (unless my mate decides to go as well) and have never visited that site but trying out something different is what it's all about

Thanks Steve, We will give it some consideration.