For the last three day's I have been trying to get my dealer and Bailey to recognise what the weight is after going on the weigh bridge.The 462 has MRO OF 1137 AND MTPLM OF1326 KLG.Whilst both say the MRO is now 1180 klg it makes no differance as the all end up the same . We bought it for a 189 klg user payload. At the weigh bridge empty apart from battery 22 klg Mover 37 klg and gas cylinder at 12 klg, total for all that is 1208 klg but the weighbridge figure was 1240 klg, where did the other 30 odd klg go?. Their answer is to up grade the MTPLM to 1420 klg, fine but our Skoda max',is 1400 klg but I get it to 1326 or so matching the 462 , but now we require another 30 klg above that figure making it 1356 klg. Any comments would be appreciated.
Pegasus 462 2011 model
- Thread starter Robert_374373903
- Start date
Hello Robert.
When a caravan manufacture states a MiRO, they do not weigh each caravan so its a best guess based on samples and design information. Very few caravans or cars actually weigh what the manufacture states, they invariably weigh more, due to variations in materials used in the manufacture. Other factors an also make a difference, for example two pieces of wood cut to exactly the same size, will not weigh the same. This is due to the density of the wood, and also the level of humidity. When they fit out a caravan each fitter may leave ust a bit extra on the length of pipe or the carpet, These may only be small variations by themselves but add all the variations and you can get several Kg of variance.
What cannot change, is the trailers plated MAM That is its legal limit and you must not exceede that value, having said that some manufacture do have some capacity to increase the trailers MAM by replating it.
I have nerver actually done it my self, but I have know some people that have weighed every item they put into their caravan and the weighed the whole caravan and found that in reality the caravan was several Kg different to their calculated figure. Take a kg of nails, then weigh each nail seperately and add the values together, the result will almost certainly be different to the nails weighed enmass. One of the biggest errors is due to rounding of values. Errors of 1 to 2% are perfectly common.
I know this doesn't help you but it may explain the root of your problem.
To prove the exworks weight, you have to recreate the exworks conditions. That means removing the battery, and all othe ritems that were not fitted by the factory. Each of the items you have mentioned seem to have whole numbers of Kg for weights, Did the dealer add any items? - radio, liquid in the loo, or water heater, Was the gas bottle full or empty and so on.
What about road dirt, or rain each of these will change the trailers weight.
Whilst the law says you should get what you ordered, its not always as black and white as that. The law also recognises there can be legitimate variations in a product, and I would suggest that the weight of an item constructed from many differnt materials from natural sources may be one of those criteria that cannot be realistically guaranteed.
In my opinion The only way you may have any comeback against your supplier, is if you made it clear to the seller before the contract was signed that you needed "189Kg pay-load and no less" and that was made a critical term of the contract and the seller agreed.
If you did not make it a critical term of the contract, then it is unlikely you would be able to sustain a claim agaisnt the seller as they can probably bring evidence top show the variation is a normal manufacturing tollerance.
In my opinion you have absolutely no recourse against the manufacture as your contract is with your seller.
You may be lucky - in that the Skoda's maximum trailer weight is 1400Kg. That it the mass that is 'towed' technically the nose load is not part of the towed load as it is carried by the car. Thus the gross trailer weight the Skoda can handle is equal to the 1400 towed load + the nose load. I seem to recall that the Skodas maximum permitted nose load is 60Kg thus technically you Gross Trailer weight could be 1460Kg.
When a caravan manufacture states a MiRO, they do not weigh each caravan so its a best guess based on samples and design information. Very few caravans or cars actually weigh what the manufacture states, they invariably weigh more, due to variations in materials used in the manufacture. Other factors an also make a difference, for example two pieces of wood cut to exactly the same size, will not weigh the same. This is due to the density of the wood, and also the level of humidity. When they fit out a caravan each fitter may leave ust a bit extra on the length of pipe or the carpet, These may only be small variations by themselves but add all the variations and you can get several Kg of variance.
What cannot change, is the trailers plated MAM That is its legal limit and you must not exceede that value, having said that some manufacture do have some capacity to increase the trailers MAM by replating it.
I have nerver actually done it my self, but I have know some people that have weighed every item they put into their caravan and the weighed the whole caravan and found that in reality the caravan was several Kg different to their calculated figure. Take a kg of nails, then weigh each nail seperately and add the values together, the result will almost certainly be different to the nails weighed enmass. One of the biggest errors is due to rounding of values. Errors of 1 to 2% are perfectly common.
I know this doesn't help you but it may explain the root of your problem.
To prove the exworks weight, you have to recreate the exworks conditions. That means removing the battery, and all othe ritems that were not fitted by the factory. Each of the items you have mentioned seem to have whole numbers of Kg for weights, Did the dealer add any items? - radio, liquid in the loo, or water heater, Was the gas bottle full or empty and so on.
What about road dirt, or rain each of these will change the trailers weight.
Whilst the law says you should get what you ordered, its not always as black and white as that. The law also recognises there can be legitimate variations in a product, and I would suggest that the weight of an item constructed from many differnt materials from natural sources may be one of those criteria that cannot be realistically guaranteed.
In my opinion The only way you may have any comeback against your supplier, is if you made it clear to the seller before the contract was signed that you needed "189Kg pay-load and no less" and that was made a critical term of the contract and the seller agreed.
If you did not make it a critical term of the contract, then it is unlikely you would be able to sustain a claim agaisnt the seller as they can probably bring evidence top show the variation is a normal manufacturing tollerance.
In my opinion you have absolutely no recourse against the manufacture as your contract is with your seller.
You may be lucky - in that the Skoda's maximum trailer weight is 1400Kg. That it the mass that is 'towed' technically the nose load is not part of the towed load as it is carried by the car. Thus the gross trailer weight the Skoda can handle is equal to the 1400 towed load + the nose load. I seem to recall that the Skodas maximum permitted nose load is 60Kg thus technically you Gross Trailer weight could be 1460Kg.
You are lucky to have an actual MIRO that is only 30kg off a calculated figure based on published data. In view of the fact that a caravan can weigh up to 15kg more on a wet day than after a dry spell, such tolerances are to be expected. (The 15kg come from absorbtion of moisture out of the atmosphere and into the insulating material and has nothing to do with damp). Easily as much weight difference again can arise out of production tolerances, such as paint and sheet metal thicknesses. As the Prof says, MIRO is specific to each and every vehicle, but few manufacturers go to the trouble of weighing each one as it comes off the line. Published data is usually based on the basic model without any factory fitted options, so the actual MIRO is invariably higher.
I had a S5 Pageant upgraded from MTPLM 1360kg to 1400kg which effectively compensated for the mover. As I understand it you can tow a van with a higher plated MTPLM than your cars max tow weight but you would need to ensure that the actual van load does not exceed the cars limit. So a weight upgrade is feasible. You get a new tally plate for siting near the door, and a certificate plus new Bailey graphics for the front locker and rear van panel, these say Bailey Max Load Upgrade. One thing to watch is the tyre loads. On our S5 the van MTPLM went to 1400kg but the tyres max load stayed at 2x710kg= 1420kg which means you lose any margin of 10%. However the tyres are rated at 85mph(ish) so twoing at 55-60 mph gives some margin and even at 85mph there will be a margin. But I changed my tyres to GT Radials Kargomax ST6000 which are trailer specific tyres and give a larger load margin again.
Today bit the bullet and the dealer sent off to Bailey for replating to 1420klg, its going to cost me though. The Skoda towball is 75 klg max'.
That's a good decision which still leaves you in overall control of loading. Although watch out as you appraoch 70 years of age as the limit is 3500kg based on total gross towing mass which assumes car an van are loaded to the max for each when reality says they may both be substantially lighter. Still get the Pegasus down rated again!
In the Hymer brochure for Eriba and Feeling vans they give a really good explanation of what is and what is not included in each weight definition unlike British manufacturers who leave everything delightfully vague. Hymer even say that the ex works weight may vary by +/- 5% due to factors outwith their control ie moisture, insulation thickness variations. Why cannot British companies be as helpful given the importance of weight to safety. Given the low payloads for some vans on the market I think I will stick with the S5 and its 250kg (inc mover).
In the Hymer brochure for Eriba and Feeling vans they give a really good explanation of what is and what is not included in each weight definition unlike British manufacturers who leave everything delightfully vague. Hymer even say that the ex works weight may vary by +/- 5% due to factors outwith their control ie moisture, insulation thickness variations. Why cannot British companies be as helpful given the importance of weight to safety. Given the low payloads for some vans on the market I think I will stick with the S5 and its 250kg (inc mover).
It may be highly commendable that Hymer point out that a variance of ±5% is possible, but based on a 1500kg caravan that amounts to a difference of 150kg between the lightest and the heaviest, and that is hardly insignificant.
Luz,
I don't think I said it was insignificant but at least Hymer are attempting to give customers some information regarding the wieghts of their products whereas the British manufacturers leave it to guesswork or some salesman's assurance of what may or may not be included in MRO. At least with the previous appraoch the user could work up from an empty van (ex work) and decide whether the payload is going to be satisfactory for their usage. The variation in manufactureing weights is something we can do little about as with atmospheric/road conditions unless we all start deduction further allowance from payload, which takes us back to basic camping but in a weatherproof box instead of under canvas.
I don't think I said it was insignificant but at least Hymer are attempting to give customers some information regarding the wieghts of their products whereas the British manufacturers leave it to guesswork or some salesman's assurance of what may or may not be included in MRO. At least with the previous appraoch the user could work up from an empty van (ex work) and decide whether the payload is going to be satisfactory for their usage. The variation in manufactureing weights is something we can do little about as with atmospheric/road conditions unless we all start deduction further allowance from payload, which takes us back to basic camping but in a weatherproof box instead of under canvas.
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