Polyplastic window delamination update

[Andrew_374383565]

April Newsletter....

Since starting this newsletter in Aug 2009, I have been inundated with owners whose Polyplastic windows have failed.

Answering everyone has become almost a full time job with over 1800 reports so far.

Interestingly, it was thought that only German caravans were effected, but since starting this site many other manufacturers have been reported, including Coachman, Abbey, Swift, Lunar, Avondale and Bailey..I am compiling a full list for future publication.

All of you without exception have been met with a total blank wall when confronting the dealers and any attempt to challenge Polyplastic has so far been met with a negative response.

The main reason for compiling information is to be advise suitable action and strengthen the owners legal position.

We are progressing with the recording of all faults and responses.

Please keep sending any updates that you have and dealer responses.

Thankyou once again for all your reports.

www.caravanandmotorhomewindowproblems.co.uk

 

[Parksy]

Hi Andrew

While I applaud your actions in setting up a website and database to help those who have had problems with these windows your statement in which you said 'All of you without exception have been met with a total blank wall when confronting the dealers..........' is not strictly accurate.

There have been posts on this and other caravan forums in which members have written to say that they have had replacement windows fitted.

I take it that you meant that all who have contacted you via your newsletter have received negative responses?

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

I for one never contacted Andrew regarding my Senator Vermont because as soon as I pointed it out to my mobile service engineer he contacted Bailey and a new one was fitted within weeks.

Apart from the problem shouldn't have happened in the first place I have no complaints :O)

 

[readcaravans]

any windows which have been effected and reported to us have been replaced with no problems.

 

[Andrew_374383565]

hello..........thankyou for you reply....in all cases the owners who have contacted me obviously have not received any replacement offers....I assume this is why they contacted the site.....I would agree that some dealers have replaced under warranty but if your caravan/motorhome is outside warranty or the manufacturer has stopped trading it becomes almost impossible to gain a replacement.....Polyplastic still insists it has no responsibilty to replace F.O.C and the discount offered is worthless as they do not publish the original price.

The 1826 owners who have registered so far,are providing detailed information on this problem and this will eventually allow us to take appropriate action...thankyou once again for your reply

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

I believe the cost for the centre window to be around

 

[Andrew_374383565]

Thankyou.........we are compilig a list of pro active dealers and will include you on it, if that ok

 

[Andrew_374383565]

I believe the cost for the centre window to be around

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Andrew,

I recall that when you first started writing about these window problems, you were predicting tens of thousands of complaints, 1800 whilst significant, it is not the scale of response you were looking for. Still 1800 customers is more than it should be.

I applaud you for trying to get some action on these difficulties, but as I am fairly sure I advised when this matter first came to light, in the UK the customer's redress is through the seller not the manufacturer as determined by SoGA.

It is therefore highly unlikely that the manufacture will respond directly to UK customers.

I appreciate that this matter affects a number of customer whose products are out of the manufacturers guarantee, but for many redress to the seller is still possible for up to 6 years under warranty regulations.

I also appreciate that this matter has the potential to affect products of more than 6 years of age, and under those conditions you need to generate a class action against the manufacturer, not an easy task from the UK against a foreign (all be it a European) manufacturer.

I wish you luck, but I do not realistically expect a full capitulation by the window manufacturer. But who knows perhaps your dogged determination may win through!

 

[Andrew_374383565]

Hi John.........thankyou for your reply......as you correctly state, to take any action will require a vast amount of imformation. The 1800 plus owners that have contacted me, are contributing much needed evidence and to be honest, it is taking all my time already to keep everyone posted...but I will continue..I also appreciate your comments and do not underestimate the mountain to climb.......Andrew

 

[Guest]

It would be helpful if Andrew could define the type of complaints he is getting in a little more detail. From what has appeared even on this Forum there have been different complaints regarding windows. There have been the ones where the panels have separated and as per the original announcement by I believe Burstner, this is where the selling Company in Holland has only offered a limited discount on replacement windows. This is on vans older than any warranty period. There have also been a number of instances usually involving windows made in the UK where the panels have not delaminated but have starting hitting each other and marking as a result. Here in the majority of cases advised, the manufacturer, through the dealers have made replacements FOC. There have also been a number, albeit few. of instances where windows have discoloured and even the replacemnt has not been identical.

So, if he could delineate his data base without giving too much away, possibly in precentages of type of fault and maybe even van type, whether UK or EU and whether restricted to any particular type (without names of course) then I am sure that would be helpful to all of us in getting a better idea of the depth of any problem.

 

[Robert_374373903]

Whilst this has been said many times about delamination i spoke about my Coachman which had two windows gone. My answer last year or so was i repaired it with adhesive reccomended by Araldite, this intailed purchasing the special double applicator with the adhesive . I cannot at this time remember the cost but it must have been around

 

[Andrew_374383565]

As you would expect we have gathered a large number of statistics...around 70% of complaints are delamination design faults, this has fluctuated throughout the survey period. The remaining 30% or so are mainly window cavity design faults, such as inner and outer windows rubbing due to minimal separation or material flexing excessively.

Without exception those who have contacted the site have had very little back up from dealers.

However as can be seen from the forum, Read Caravans appear to be pro active and we will publish the companies who are taking these problems seriously in the future.

A number of issues are starting to become clear....In some instances dealers have been selling caravans as brand new, when in fact they have been standing on forecourts for two or three years..this illustrates why a number of owners are reporting 2006/2007/2008 caravans, which are really 2003/2004 models.

The number of dealers who have gone under, are causing massive claim problems.

The number of manufacturers who have ceased trading is also causing real difficulties.

Basically any manufacturer who has used the windows produced by this major European supplier, has a very real risk of failure, in specific circumstances.

The most worrying aspect has been, that a number of organizations and publications, have really too much at stake through manufacturer sponsorship, to widely publicize not only the problems encountered by our survey, but a number of possibly for serious problems. You can see why this is and quite frankly who can blame them.

That said....

The people who have participated in this forum have shown how healthy good discussion can be and I am really thankful to all those members for the arguments presented , this is really helping us to format future responses.

Thankyou once again for all your input....

www.caravanandmotorhomewindowproblems.co.uk

 

[Andrew_374383565]

Whilst this has been said many times about delamination i spoke about my Coachman which had two windows gone. My answer last year or so was i repaired it with adhesive reccomended by Araldite, this intailed purchasing the special double applicator with the adhesive . I cannot at this time remember the cost but it must have been around

 

[Guest]

I would like to thank Andrew for his contribution. However, I do not feel that it has shown any real light on what may, or may not be a major problem.

For example he states he has had 1800 reports so far of which according to him 70%, or 1260 were attributed to the window delamination issue. By inference one assumes that all these problems emanated from windows made by one manufacturer, but that is not clear. So, we still do not know if this was due to a local production fault solely in Europe, or also included windows made by the same process in the UK, or a general design fault. Even so, considering that the caravan market in total production terms, and of course the motorhome market as well, must be in the 100 of 1000's per annum throughout Europe, then 1260 'failures' is maybe not so significant. I do not for one moment mean to denigrate anyone who has such a problem, as this is obviously a concern to them, but in the total scheme of things it does not compare with the multiple thousands of failures initially being advised. Maybe, as Andrew mentions, time will increase these numbers significantly, but I suspect that by now many people who have the problem will have either sorted it, or have advised him otherwise.

He mentions also that the 'market place' appears to have 'glossed over' any issue, and that may indeed be true, but somehow I am not convinced. No other manufacturer to my knowledge has made any recall notice apart from the initial one, or made any announcement whatsoever apart from the ones where the panes hit each other, and replacements in the majority of these cases have been supplied.

I also feel his comment

'Basically any manufacturer who has used the windows produced by this major European supplier, has a very real risk of failure, in specific circumstances.'

is misleading as I for one have a caravan with windows made by this EU manufacturer and after 5 years no problems whatsoever have been recorded. If he could specify the 'specific circumstances' then maybe I can ascertain more clearly what this actually means.

I applaud his enthusiasm in trying to get to the bottom of a potential problem, but feel there is a very long way to go before it is accepted as a major issue.

 

[Robert_374373903]

Whilst this has been said many times about delamination i spoke about my Coachman which had two windows gone. My answer last year or so was i repaired it with adhesive reccomended by Araldite, this intailed purchasing the special double applicator with the adhesive . I cannot at this time remember the cost but it must have been around

 

[Ray_374575954]

After a rcent journey I was horrified to find a front window of my 2004 Lunar Ariva had de-laminated, and the outer layer blown away. I hope no accident was caused. I have had this replaced through a local caravan workshop at a cost of

 

[Andrew_374383565]

Hi.sorry for the delay in replying...........we have on file, to date....over 2,500 delamination and associated design faults concerning Polyplastic NL windows, Lunar have a definite problem with delamination.we have over 300 lunar owners on record with this fault. I would go back to Miriad and ask for their reply in writing.......if you wish, you can register with us at the web address at the beginning of this thread.....you are not alone

regards Andrew

 

[IVAN_374576401]

one of my bailey pegasus windows has failed only 3 month old Bailey not interested,Ivan

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Ivan,

What you report is quite correct. Under UK law, you only have a contract with your seller. The seller is legally responsible for the condition of the goods at the time of sale, and if a fault was present, then the seller must remedy the situation.

As you have no contract of sale with Bailey, they have no legal liability to you.

You must press your case against the seller, not the manufacturer.

The seller is the person or organisation that you pay your money to. so it might be a bank or finance house if you used a credit arrangement, or if it were a cash deal, then it will be the caravan dealer.

Andrews web site and action group is trying to use a "class action" which is nothing to do with your legal warranty, but is trying to make the window manufacturer agree to rectify their mistakes, even though no person in the group has a contract with window manufacture. It can be done but it takes time, and numbers of people to register their complaint. But there are no guarantees of success.

 

[Andrew_374383565]

Thanks John..........the Caravan Club has printed a letter from us on this subject....there has been a massive response....regular updates to follow....regards Andrew

 

[ValA.]

Our large front window 'failed', with star cracks appearing all down one side, for a band of about one foot wide. We've had a replacement made, and the company producing the replacement told us that leaving the window in the sun (with or without the blinds down) could possibly cause overheating of the air inside, expanding the plastic against the seals. When the window cools the air cools, but the window doesn't move back fully and eventually these cracks can appear or the whole seal fail.

We've replaced ours. Our van was ten years old, spends a lot of the time in hot sun in France - and has been stored facing south for all this time. We've also covered our van against the sun, with the added precaution of a reflective cover over the large single front window area.

It would be interesting to know how many of these reported failures are in front windows, in caravans which are stored, or kept at home in a very open situation with the front window facing south and getting the sun almost all day.

 

[Andrew_374383565]

Hi Val....It was originaly thought that storage or exposure to the sun or even the position of window blinds caused premature failure, in fact many dealers have used this excuse.

Specialist tests however, have shown that Polyplastic NL used the wrong type of screenprint when assembling their windows, because this is sandwiched between the two layers, adhesion breaks down as the uv exposure increases. Many owners are experiencing debris in the window cavity as first indication of the problem.

Unfortunately the manufacturers and their agents have only offered replacement at a discounted price, for what is a design fault covered by SOGA. When questioned over the discount it turns out that because a full retail price is not stated the discount is at best misleading.

Thankyou for your comments...regards Andrew

 

[TimM]

We have just had the small kitchen window on our 2006 Abbey 215GTS Vogue delaminate. I only noticed because there was water inside the window after washing the caravan. I have joined Andrew's newsletter. My dealer was bought by Discovery and then closed so I have no redress against the seller.

I contacted Swift Group who absolutely did not want to know or help in any way. Something I will obviously take in to consideration with my next caravan purchase. I had a similar response when the paint came off the stove.

What I would like to know is that if one window has gone, are all the others likely to go as well? If so I think I will have to ditch this caravan. Even the small window that we have had to replace is about

 

[Guest]

There is no doubt in my mind that exposure to excessive sun and heat can precipitate failure regardless of any so called manufacturing failure. If the air temperature is around 35-40 degrees then the temperature reflected back on to the window is far in excess of this. For this reason many EU caravanners fit sunscreens especially to the front window. We use ourselves a car relfective screen that is fitted to the outside of the window. This prevents both heat and light from hitting the pane directly and so far after 6 years use, no problems. Currently sitting here in the south of France with air temperature of 33 degrees. If we do not take precautions the inside of the van can rocket to well over 40 degrees and that is on the inside. Even glass has been known to fail in these circumstances so give a thought to plastic.

I note Andrew's comments but feel he raises more questions than he answers.

I am curious as to how UK SOGA will apply to a Dutch Company but maybe he has a team of Dutch lawyers looking at it. He mentions Lunar as a manufacturer with evidently a significant number of faults. Now is this Lunar as a UK Company, or Lunar when part of Tirus. It is unlikely that Lunar UK used a Dutch Company when there is a UK one close to home, or is he including the UK one as also having a production failure?

If there was indeed aproduction failure, and I do not doubt his statement, then serial batch numbers will be available and all vans fitted with those affected windows can be identified. However, vans that seem to fall outside of even this basic remit are evidently also having problems so this 'production failure' seems to be an oversimplification of the cause. I therefore have doubts that any class action will be able to cover all the relevant failures and I suspect will fail. Plus the costs of such an action may be as much in the eend as getting replacement windows.

I also have been checking with my Dutch friends who have had Tirus caravans for many years and they tell me, so far no sign of any 'epidemic', but then again they may not be aware of other events.

Unfortunately, until either Andrew, or any legal team present accurate and crosschecked data with supporting batch numbers, year and model type, I suspect this is so far just a 'potpourri' of general gripes, to which I am sympathetic. However, sympathy or gripes rarely work in Law.

Also as I own a van with windows from the 'dastardly Dutch Company' I of course have checked them regularly. but fortunately over the last 6 years no signs of any failure have been noted. Maybe I am just lucky, I certainly hope so.